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April 17, 2024, 01:51:45 pm
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Author Topic: Massive new car factory for Pryor  (Read 69404 times)
LandArchPoke
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« Reply #285 on: March 07, 2023, 10:50:17 am »

Yes, and unlike MAIP it's 30 miles from downtown Tulsa and even closer to parts of east Tulsa and Broken Arrow.  It has rail access and a barge slip on the Verdigris River.  It would be a fantastic site for one of these megafactories.




My guess is that the power cost situation is just not as ideal as MAIP and I think a big pull for MAIP is that it's coming from hydro too. Would be cool to see PSO do a solar farm in this area that could power both this site and the Fair Oaks Urban Center site.

If they built a bridge across the Verdigris to connect into BA faster this site would be a no brainer for many reasons. Right now it's still pretty hard to access even though it is closer given it sits a few miles south of 412 and the Verdigris cuts off access.
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LandArchPoke
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« Reply #286 on: March 07, 2023, 10:59:23 am »

Or....there is another possibility that many folks there are happy being a mostly rural community and don't want that massive growth no matter how well intentioned and planned it might be by pro-development folks.  I worked at a place in MAIP in the 90s.  Several people that lived in Chouteau expressed that there was a no-growth attitude even then.  They didn't all agree but the attitude was there.

MAIP exists mostly because it is left over from World War II.  I believe it was a POW camp.





No doubt there is a large group that is a No to anything and everything. Usually in rural areas it can be 30 - 50 % (usually the oldest generation that votes too), so the problem is if just a smaller percentage of people have bigger concerns that could be a yes it tips the scales very quickly. Just reading into the election results there how the Commissioner who stalled everything was voted out but yet the TIF failed (you'd think that if they vote the guy out who tried to sink the TIF, the TIF would pass) - so that tells me there's probably 10 - 15% of people who's biggest concern is that Mayes County doesn't have the housing and infrastructure ready for something like this and that rests on the leaders there - and while they didn't like that the guy stood in the way of progress the way he did they are also uncomfortable with passing a TIF until the area is in a better position to handle growth.

There will always be a strong core of anti-growth in rural counties no matter what and they just failed to convince the middle ground. The 'just trust the free market' doesn't always work when housing costs in Pryor are already insane. The simple fix just seems like establishing a housing plan and identifying builders who would like to develop in the area and finding a handful of large parcels willing to sell where you can start and finish a few thousand for sale and rental units within a 3-5 year window. It's really not a complicated solution and would ease a lot of fears of being priced out of the market for existing residents. Plus they'd know exactly where and what could be developed too.  
« Last Edit: March 07, 2023, 11:01:21 am by LandArchPoke » Logged
Red Arrow
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« Reply #287 on: March 07, 2023, 02:04:28 pm »

Isn't the Inola port just the old location of the never constructed Black Fox Nuclear Power Plant?

I always thought of the activity on the Verdigris at 412 to be the Inola port but I see now that the "Tulsa Port of Inola" is the old Blackfox site and does not include the activity at 412.

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patric
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« Reply #288 on: March 08, 2023, 11:27:41 am »

Yup. Don't let the crazy circumstances of the last several efforts distract you from the fact that when it comes down to it, Oklahoma can't compete. We've got some minor geographical advantages such as the port and highway crossroads, but we lack the workforce, education systems, investment dollars, political environment, and everything else that attracts business. Better to go after smaller on-shoring manufacturing opportunities at this point, I would think.


At least if a big pharmaceutical company wants to set up manufacturing in Oklahoma they know who to call...



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shavethewhales
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« Reply #289 on: March 13, 2023, 12:25:42 pm »

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/volkswagen-build-first-north-american-battery-cell-plant-canada-2023-03-13/

Canada threw it's weight around and was apparently more involved than we thought. Tough to see another opportunity go by, but it doesn't seem like we were ever really in the frontrunning for anything. We're just a backup plan and negotiating leverage. Like I've said before, if we want to compete beyond just reaching for huge incentive packages that others can beat, we would have to focus on education, infrastructure, workforce improvements, etc... I don't see any notable improvements in those aspects on the horizon for this state.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #290 on: March 13, 2023, 02:11:42 pm »

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/volkswagen-build-first-north-american-battery-cell-plant-canada-2023-03-13/

Canada threw it's weight around and was apparently more involved than we thought. Tough to see another opportunity go by, but it doesn't seem like we were ever really in the frontrunning for anything. We're just a backup plan and negotiating leverage. Like I've said before, if we want to compete beyond just reaching for huge incentive packages that others can beat, we would have to focus on education, infrastructure, workforce improvements, etc... I don't see any notable improvements in those aspects on the horizon for this state.


And healthcare.   We are at the bottom on that, too.

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Jake
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« Reply #291 on: March 13, 2023, 04:40:01 pm »

Why even publicize these potential deals when the state is obviously being used as leverage and will lose?
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« Reply #292 on: March 13, 2023, 05:04:29 pm »

Why even publicize these potential deals when the state is obviously being used as leverage and will lose?

You miss all the shots you don’t take and Oklahoma is well-positioned for these types of developments.  Domestic manufacturing is seeing a resurgence unlike anything we have seen in decades with batteries, semiconductors and EV’s currently leading the way but will evolve into other areas like robotics and drones.  Definitely an exciting time to witness this transformation. 

What NE OK needs to continue doing is building up locations that are “shovel ready” for manufacturing plants.  Fair Oaks is an amazing location but still has a couple years worth of water and wastewater improvements before it can be ready and the neighborhood development is still just a concept.  Port of Inola is better developed but still needs some additional infrastructure improvements and better access to BA/Tulsa via a new Verdigris River bridge.  MAIP has land, infrastructure and utility-rate power and water but lacks the housing plans needed for thousands of new jobs and is too far to commute from Tulsa. 

The Tulsa metro has a skilled industrial workforce and institutions like Tulsa Tech and TWS offer excellent training programs.  What is still lacking are STEM programs and number of STEM degree holders. 
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Jake
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« Reply #293 on: March 13, 2023, 05:20:01 pm »

Well 8th times the charm, they say.
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« Reply #294 on: March 13, 2023, 05:34:01 pm »

MAIP has land, infrastructure and utility-rate power and water but lacks the housing plans needed for thousands of new jobs and is too far to commute from Tulsa. 


Puts a lot of miles on the car.

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tulsabug
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« Reply #295 on: March 13, 2023, 06:04:09 pm »

I guess VW didn't want to deal with a government run by Nazis again.   Undecided
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LandArchPoke
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« Reply #296 on: March 14, 2023, 09:58:17 am »

I guess VW didn't want to deal with a government run by Nazis again.   Undecided

As I've said before I don't think any of these dudes really care - I'm willing to bet that 90% of the old white dudes that run all these companies all have the same viewpoints at Stitt and others. They just hide it better.

The Governor's office needs to learn how to honor a non-disclosure agreement. When we keep leaking these things it's pissing companies off. However, they could have already known VW was likely headed to Canada and they just used this as a PR opportunity - no press is bad press. More all these large companies see Oklahoma and the Tulsa area as a final two is a good thing. Let's take the win where we can, five years ago we wouldn't even have been a consideration.

Canada did offer something we'd never be able to match - access to raw materials and rare earth elements. I think that's something everyone is looking over and hard to compete with that. Part of the deal if they located in Canada was to get these materials at a better price and have essentially first right almost to other companies to be able to buy them. For EV batteries you can't find a better deal than that given the mining and extraction for most of these elements for batteries is still in early stages so there's not a ton of these materials out in the market to acquire easily.

We do need to reflect on these and figure out what can we be improving on and planning to do that will move us from #2 to being #1. For Mid America I keep repeating myself, it's developing a housing and development plan. Until they have that, they are going to be on an uphill battle when there's a development site much closer to a major city. We all know if Pryor was just maybe 10-15 miles east it would be a different story.

Maybe we should seriously be considering adding higher speed rail to the 412/future interstate corridor. Be able to connect Mid America to downtown Tulsa and then on to NWA. On that corridor too you could have stops at Hard Rock/Catoosa, Tulsa International (maybe even future Fair Oaks/Inola stop) to the east and Siloam Springs prior to NWA. Having rail that could go at least 75 mph you could go from downtown Tulsa to Mid America in about 30 mins. Use existing rail right-of-way to Catoosa and then when we're expanding 412 could build out commuter/regional rail in the center of the highway right of way. Do it all together and save some money. Do it electric and power it via GRDA. Could even have it serve freight rail and have a new east-west freight route that connects NWA into Tulsa and would serve Mid America, Port of Inola, and Port of Catoosa all at the same time east-west. Right now there's no east way for freight to move east-west and NWA has very limited freight rail access so that would be a huge win I think for everyone. Just make it multi-purpose uses.

We do need to get serious about expansion of universities and vo-tech to be able to get more in the workforce ready too. I do believe access to housing and services has been the Achilles heel on all of these deals.
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tulsabug
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« Reply #297 on: March 15, 2023, 08:24:27 am »

Literally every improvement this state needs to make before it's seriously considered for these projects is actively opposed by its leadership. We are moving further backwards every day. Today OK state lawmakers are pulling bible phrases out of their butts to keep corporal punishment of handicapped kids in school legal. I would say Tulsa and OKC can continue to move forward and let the rest of the state flounder, but with our own city council balking at affirming Tulsa as welcoming to LGBTQ residents, we're clearly also going in the wrong direction. This state has no intention of advancing into the future, it wants to revert to the past in every way possible.

And you're 100% right about how we can get these businesses here. The state needs to focus on education, infrastructure, and housing, all of which are being ignored. Clearly child labor and stripping women of all their rights is the next step in the Republican plan to turn this and other states into Somalia, another place VW would never put a battery plant.
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LandArchPoke
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« Reply #298 on: March 15, 2023, 09:32:01 am »

Literally every improvement this state needs to make before it's seriously considered for these projects is actively opposed by its leadership. We are moving further backwards every day. Today OK state lawmakers are pulling bible phrases out of their butts to keep corporal punishment of handicapped kids in school legal. I would say Tulsa and OKC can continue to move forward and let the rest of the state flounder, but with our own city council balking at affirming Tulsa as welcoming to LGBTQ residents, we're clearly also going in the wrong direction. This state has no intention of advancing into the future, it wants to revert to the past in every way possible.

And you're 100% right about how we can get these businesses here. The state needs to focus on education, infrastructure, and housing, all of which are being ignored. Clearly child labor and stripping women of all their rights is the next step in the Republican plan to turn this and other states into Somalia, another place VW would never put a battery plant.

I just don't buy that is the reason - while I do not agree with anything they are doing and am consistently embarrassed by most everything you just mentioned - these CEO's and decision makers do not care. What they care about is profits and being able to appear progressive enough to appease people.

Are you telling me Florida is some sort of liberal haven? It is the fastest growing state in terms of in-migration of residents than any other US state, by nearly 2x. Oklahoma is in the top ten by the way too. Why are companies flocking to Texas, Florida, Tennessee, etc. They are not any less embarrassing politically than Oklahoma. Frankly I'd argue they are way, way worse. There's blue cities in these states that drive growth these companies like - Tulsa and OKC aren't any different in that regard either for Oklahoma.

Where we have failed is in areas like universities (amongst some other critical areas too) - we should have taxed oil/gas the same as Texas and set up a funding mechanism for OSU/OU systems just like UT/A&M. I'm encouraged Stitt set growth goals for universities but he needs to open his eyes to the fact they can't do that without money.
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tulsabug
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« Reply #299 on: March 16, 2023, 08:24:53 am »

I just don't buy that is the reason - while I do not agree with anything they are doing and am consistently embarrassed by most everything you just mentioned - these CEO's and decision makers do not care. What they care about is profits and being able to appear progressive enough to appease people.

Are you telling me Florida is some sort of liberal haven? It is the fastest growing state in terms of in-migration of residents than any other US state, by nearly 2x. Oklahoma is in the top ten by the way too. Why are companies flocking to Texas, Florida, Tennessee, etc. They are not any less embarrassing politically than Oklahoma. Frankly I'd argue they are way, way worse. There's blue cities in these states that drive growth these companies like - Tulsa and OKC aren't any different in that regard either for Oklahoma.

Where we have failed is in areas like universities (amongst some other critical areas too) - we should have taxed oil/gas the same as Texas and set up a funding mechanism for OSU/OU systems just like UT/A&M. I'm encouraged Stitt set growth goals for universities but he needs to open his eyes to the fact they can't do that without money.

It's important, though, to delve deeper into the growth in Florida - it's mainly people retiring which is going to be a large number just because of the size of the boomer generation. California is seeing a negative migration (and it's really small) BUT it's mainly because old people are cashing out their houses and retiring elsewhere - at the same time they are almost totally offset by a younger generation moving to California. And yes, businesses are about profits but they're also about appearances that help their bottom line. Obviously, that matters more to some than others, but VW is trying to court a younger generation so they've been trying to stay out of the culture wars and making a big splash in Oklahoma could've been problematic (Germans don't take risks - it's not how Germans work). Ultimately though, Germans value organization and responsiveness in business, and the OK state government is neither as they're more focused on the culture wars than making sure the trains run on time (or that there are trains at all), which I'm sure was a huge factor in all this. That is one constant about red states - they aren't run well on any level which I think will continue to keep businesses out of them, unless it's a chemical factory or a child labor sweat shop or something that would prefer to not have oversight.
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