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Author Topic: Massive new car factory for Pryor  (Read 43875 times)
heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #300 on: March 16, 2023, 09:50:40 am »

I just don't buy that is the reason - while I do not agree with anything they are doing and am consistently embarrassed by most everything you just mentioned - these CEO's and decision makers do not care. What they care about is profits and being able to appear progressive enough to appease people.

Are you telling me Florida is some sort of liberal haven? It is the fastest growing state in terms of in-migration of residents than any other US state, by nearly 2x. Oklahoma is in the top ten by the way too. Why are companies flocking to Texas, Florida, Tennessee, etc. They are not any less embarrassing politically than Oklahoma. Frankly I'd argue they are way, way worse. There's blue cities in these states that drive growth these companies like - Tulsa and OKC aren't any different in that regard either for Oklahoma.

Where we have failed is in areas like universities (amongst some other critical areas too) - we should have taxed oil/gas the same as Texas and set up a funding mechanism for OSU/OU systems just like UT/A&M. I'm encouraged Stitt set growth goals for universities but he needs to open his eyes to the fact they can't do that without money.



Tulsa and OKC are NOWHERE near "blue" in any possible frame of reference!


As for OK failings - as I and many have said repeatedly -  Education.  Healthcare.  Infrastructure.    If you do those right, it means you have systems/methods that are going to make all the other things fall in place correctly.   And reds just don't get it.  You can see the destruction of progress in TX, FL, and TN right now with the assault on education - all 3 rushing at breakneck speed to destroy education in those states. 

And TX infrastructure??  Well, if one thinks it is all that great, it only means one hasn't done that much driving through the state, and certainly not off the interstates.   Same with TN.  Don't know about FL - we don't do FL.  Ever. 

Healthcare - TN is the only one I have direct experience with and if I am there and get sick, I am doing anything and everything possible to get out of that state!  Or at least get to the Knoxville area, where you at least have a chance of surviving!









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« Reply #301 on: March 16, 2023, 02:04:32 pm »



Tulsa and OKC are NOWHERE near "blue" in any possible frame of reference!


As for OK failings - as I and many have said repeatedly -  Education.  Healthcare.  Infrastructure.    If you do those right, it means you have systems/methods that are going to make all the other things fall in place correctly.   And reds just don't get it.  You can see the destruction of progress in TX, FL, and TN right now with the assault on education - all 3 rushing at breakneck speed to destroy education in those states. 

And TX infrastructure??  Well, if one thinks it is all that great, it only means one hasn't done that much driving through the state, and certainly not off the interstates.   Same with TN.  Don't know about FL - we don't do FL.  Ever. 

Healthcare - TN is the only one I have direct experience with and if I am there and get sick, I am doing anything and everything possible to get out of that state!  Or at least get to the Knoxville area, where you at least have a chance of surviving!











Purple then.  Look at the last governors race map.  Three counties voted majority Democrat in 2022.  Oklahoma, Cleveland, and Tulsa.  Granted Tulsa was a razor-thin margin, but it was a margin nonetheless.  Putting this on a one-off ballot was a ploy by Stitt.  He knew that if he allowed legalized mj on the ballot last November, he would have likely lost the race and we would have had recreational in the bag (yes that was a pun).  We'll eventually have it but my fear now is there is a bill floating around the OK legislature that could do away with petitions for ballot items.  It's like what a lot of conservatives were screaming about after the 2022 midterms not wanting anyone under 21 to vote.  Good thing that's codified now in the Constitution (Bill of Rights Amendment 26).
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« Reply #302 on: March 16, 2023, 02:35:30 pm »

Purple then.  Look at the last governors race map.  Three counties voted majority Democrat in 2022.  Oklahoma, Cleveland, and Tulsa.  Granted Tulsa was a razor-thin margin, but it was a margin nonetheless.  Putting this on a one-off ballot was a ploy by Stitt.  He knew that if he allowed legalized mj on the ballot last November, he would have likely lost the race and we would have had recreational in the bag (yes that was a pun).  We'll eventually have it but my fear now is there is a bill floating around the OK legislature that could do away with petitions for ballot items.  It's like what a lot of conservatives were screaming about after the 2022 midterms not wanting anyone under 21 to vote.  Good thing that's codified now in the Constitution (Bill of Rights Amendment 26).


We certainly cant let mere citizens influence making the law...

https://oklahomawatch.org/2023/02/27/oklahoma-considers-stiffer-petition-requirements-for-state-questions/

https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/how-oklahoma-is-making-it-harder-for-citizen-led-measures-to-get-on-the-ballot/

...or enforcing it...
 
https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/local-regional/2023-03-14/tulsa-reps-oppose-bill-to-make-all-police-accountability-bodies-2-3-leos

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LandArchPoke
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« Reply #303 on: March 16, 2023, 05:27:09 pm »



Tulsa and OKC are NOWHERE near "blue" in any possible frame of reference!


As for OK failings - as I and many have said repeatedly -  Education.  Healthcare.  Infrastructure.    If you do those right, it means you have systems/methods that are going to make all the other things fall in place correctly.   And reds just don't get it.  You can see the destruction of progress in TX, FL, and TN right now with the assault on education - all 3 rushing at breakneck speed to destroy education in those states.  

And TX infrastructure??  Well, if one thinks it is all that great, it only means one hasn't done that much driving through the state, and certainly not off the interstates.   Same with TN.  Don't know about FL - we don't do FL.  Ever.  

Healthcare - TN is the only one I have direct experience with and if I am there and get sick, I am doing anything and everything possible to get out of that state!  Or at least get to the Knoxville area, where you at least have a chance of surviving!


City of Tulsa voted for Clinton over Trump and Biden over Trump. In particular, midtown and North Tulsa in most areas vote about 80/20 in favor of Democrats. That's as liberal as Austin, San Francisco, and other major 'liberal' city voting patterns. I would define that as a blue dot in the state in a heavily populated area. It's the opposite of similar areas in say Dallas - Highland Park does not vote democrat and same with River Oaks area in Houston and Alamo Heights in San Antonio - can go on. It is actually very rare to have an area of extreme wealth vote so heavily democrat like Maple Ridge/Midtown does. I'm a map and data nerd so I find stuff like that fascinating.

The suburban areas are more conservative in Tulsa obviously than in an area like Austin though. Even the suburbs like Round Rock (Austin's Broken Arrow) votes around 55/45 in favor of democrats usually. Tulsa County tends to be a 50/50 spit because of that and depending on election is can go one way or the other - but the City of Tulsa is not Tulsa County.

This past election cycle was the first time Democrats did not lose a seat in the Oklahoma House, I think they gained 1-2. Tulsa area did add democrats representing the area in the State House this past election cycle. I would consider Lori Dector Wright as one of the more 'liberal' city council members and she represents South Tulsa and even pretty easily beat out a far right challenger in what many people would consider a conservative area of the city.  

Oklahoma County has trended very significantly toward being blue over the past decade and even as of late Payne County is trending the same direction. Cleveland County is similar, it tends to be 50/50 as well. Oklahoma City area did vote in a Democrat into the US House not too long ago and the Republicans had to gerrymander the crap out of the area to prevent those races from staying competitive.

I'll put this out there too - move-in's to Oklahoma the past two years has been about 65,000 people (little over 30k a year). The last Governor's race had a margin of 100-150k. And nearly 1 million registered voters parked their A** on the couch and didn't vote (primarily democrats and independents).

It wouldn't take a lot for Oklahoma to trend one way or the other given we're still a pretty small population state and that our voter participation is SO LOW - if a candidate was able to get Dems and Independents energized and turnout into the 70% range the entire state would flip. Alas, Compared to say a Florida or Texas where even several hundred thousand new residents a year doesn't swing the needle one way or the other because they're already so populated.

If people actually got out and voted in Oklahoma we could change the dynamic a lot. It's easier to blame Republicans though than accept the fact a lot of what is happening in Oklahoma now is Democrat & Independents fault for not showing up to vote. I'm not a Republican either, and until the state party and people who want to see things like education investments, better infrastructure, more economic development do some sole searching and accept we're part at fault and stop the incessant pity party things won't ever change. I blame Moderate Republicans too because they are increasingly staying home too and letting local, state, and national seats be highjacked with obstructionists who have no intention on enacting any policies and are only out for Twitter followers and culture war "wins" so they can grift off people.  

While Republicans do outnumber Democrats - there is a sizable Independent voter population that tends to not vote. If you add in Independents with Democrats there as many as republicans. It's something I can't seem to figure out is how to get Independent voters more involved and get Democrats to show up to the polls. Do they just hate the candidates that are running, do they think there's just no chance to win so they don't bother? I don't know - but it's frustrating to watch. Republicans have no problem in showing up to vote in Oklahoma and that's why are state wide elections tend to be lop sided as of late. When you have 60-70% of them show up and around 50% of Democrats/Independents you get what you get. Nearly 50K Republicans did not vote for Stitt or Walters that voted for Mullin and others. If just a small portion of more democrats showed up both of them would no longer be in office. Only way to change is to get people to vote more or hope the large influx of population to Oklahoma will show up and vote and move things more back to the middle.  
« Last Edit: March 16, 2023, 06:15:53 pm by LandArchPoke » Logged
swake
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« Reply #304 on: March 16, 2023, 06:30:06 pm »

South Carolina has a bill under consideration right now, with 21 sponsors, to make abortion a crime subject to the death penalty for the doctor and the woman.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/pol...alty-rcna75060

Our politics are not unique, or the most radical.
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LandArchPoke
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« Reply #305 on: March 16, 2023, 07:16:13 pm »

It's important, though, to delve deeper into the growth in Florida - it's mainly people retiring which is going to be a large number just because of the size of the boomer generation. California is seeing a negative migration (and it's really small) BUT it's mainly because old people are cashing out their houses and retiring elsewhere - at the same time they are almost totally offset by a younger generation moving to California. And yes, businesses are about profits but they're also about appearances that help their bottom line. Obviously, that matters more to some than others, but VW is trying to court a younger generation so they've been trying to stay out of the culture wars and making a big splash in Oklahoma could've been problematic (Germans don't take risks - it's not how Germans work). Ultimately though, Germans value organization and responsiveness in business, and the OK state government is neither as they're more focused on the culture wars than making sure the trains run on time (or that there are trains at all), which I'm sure was a huge factor in all this. That is one constant about red states - they aren't run well on any level which I think will continue to keep businesses out of them, unless it's a chemical factory or a child labor sweat shop or something that would prefer to not have oversight.

I can tell you 'appearances' is the key word there. They create DEI positions/divisions within the company to appear they are doing things all while still offering females less in compensation, passing over qualified candidate for a buddy's kid, refusing to give paid sick leave, etc. etc.

VW could care less about 'culture war' issues people are talking about in Oklahoma - that gets about zero consideration in the boardroom who makes decisions on where a battery plant, etc. will be located. You're over estimating 'blow back' a firm like that would get - South Carolina is not any less problematic than Oklahoma - sorry. They received a grand total of zero major stories about locating a plant there and what that could mean for their workers in terms of access to medical care for female employees, LGBTQ+ employees, etc. They just do not care - they care about their bonuses and that means how to squeeze margins and places like Oklahoma, South Carolina, Texas, Tennessee, etc. offer that up. Cheap labor, cheap power/utilities, etc. Canada offered up raw material access too, something nothing Oklahoma could ever have competed with - it's likely we could have offered to cover 100% of all their costs and they probably would have picked Canada just to have access to the materials needed to make batteries.

MAIP offers up renewable power sources and cheap prices for that power - that checks every box a company like VW would need to go back to investors and go we are meeting ESG/DEI metrics. No one on the investment side drills into anything beyond that and no one is willing to ask critical questions to someone like VW of why they'd be willing to open a plant in South Carolina or Oklahoma instead of say Minnesota or Colorado.

You are likely spot on in terms of VW getting irritated by lack of professionalism from many in our state (you can make an argument that lack of business professionalism goes hand and hand with the other things). Not enough Oklahoma political leadership takes economic development seriously. That's the reason states like Texas blow us out of the water in terms of business expansion - they've had tax incentives, etc. down to a science for a decade plus while we've done very little to counter that. Kansas is getting their act together as well while a lot of our political leaders are trying to find their head up their a**. The Governor's office doesn't take non-disclosures and other agreements seriously, etc. Panasonic had to threaten the Governor's office to stop waiting and resulted in that dumb press conference at the end of session last year to get the legislature to finally vote on the bill. Kansas voted on their incentive bill pretty much first thing in their legislative session and then moved on to culture war BS - while we did the opposite. We likely sunk any chance we had with Panasonic because of that - not because we were having debates over culture war BS but because we didn't prioritize their corporate handout first. Somewhat ironic too. I do feel sorry for a lot of our economic development folks who work really hard just to have a lot of leadership not take things seriously.

Everyone got upset over Tesla snubbing us and who is lighting fires under the culture war stuff? Didn't just about everyone blame Republicans here for us not being in a place we could support Tesla - Elon didn't pass us over because we are too conservative lol. He's not an outlier either in the corporate CEO/management level - he just says the quiet part loudly and publicly because he feeds off attention wether it's negative or positive.

More business leaders have to push our legislature to prioritize economic development and other issues to be first in session then move on to anything/everything else they want to get in front of cameras for and grandstand about.

I see encouraging signs. OSU has some great leadership and their health center is one of the fastest growing medical programs in the US and they can have a massive impact on rural health if they keep on the trajectory they are on. TCC and Tulsa County was the first place in the US to have free access to Community college by nearly a decade. It was funny when San Francisco passed free community college a few years back and claimed they were the first to ever think of the idea and do it - wrong, Tulsa beat them by a decade almost. Who cares about facts though. OSU could easily get enrollment above 40k - they should make an aggressive push for post graduate degrees and concentrate that in Tulsa. Stillwater campus is undergrad and Tulsa is research and graduate focused for them. OU Polytechnic has an opportunity to be very impactful. Would like to see OU/TU make a push to expand their medical program. It would be nice to see a full four year university established in Tulsa - take either the metro TCC campus or Southeast TCC campus and convert it to a four year institution. Call it Tulsa Polytechnic or something, focus it on tech/engineering and programs don't overlap as much with OSU/OU. ORU enrollment is growing - they could really be a big driver to Tulsa if they keep going. TU seems to be getting its act together too. I see a lot of things to be hopeful about. Tulsa and NE Oklahoma just five years ago was even in consideration for a lot of massive projects - while it sucks to lose - being in the top two for some many of these is a huge leap forward. I'm hopeful.

I'm not saying ignore the bad things Oklahoma is doing politically, but we can't be lazy and just lump that into why companies are passing us over as the main and only thing because if that was the case Apple, Google, Goldman Sachs, Schwab, JP Morgan Chase, State Farm, etc. etc. would not be moving HQs or building out massive regional campus in Dallas, Austin, Atlanta, Nashville, etc. Oklahoma could easily be the next Georgia and there's a ton of momentum in the 44/412 corridor between OKC-Tulsa-NWA wether we acknowledge it or not. Until economic development, incentives, etc. are taken more seriously here we're likely to stay as a back up for a while.
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LandArchPoke
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« Reply #306 on: March 16, 2023, 08:36:34 pm »

South Carolina has a bill under consideration right now, with 21 sponsors, to make abortion a crime subject to the death penalty for the doctor and the woman.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/pol...alty-rcna75060

Our politics are not unique, or the most radical.

Exactly. Another example: https://theblackwallsttimes.com/2023/03/16/chicago-mayor-hopeful-woke-teaching-leads-to-criminal-behavior/

One of the two final candidates for Chicago Mayor.... Chicago. Beat out current mayor and others to go into the final run-off between him and one other candidate.

Saying woke = being a criminal. Guess we should expect Chicago to close up shop soon, no hope - politics there are too embarrassing - no one will live there anymore. 
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« Reply #307 on: March 22, 2023, 09:30:41 am »

Positive news for Fair Oaks which could be a much better site for a manufacturing plant since it is in Tulsa and not an hour away.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/plan-to-create-large-employment-center-in-east-tulsa-gets-another-green-light/article_a1bea552-c831-11ed-8d7c-074adda4232e.html
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #308 on: March 23, 2023, 12:01:33 pm »

South Carolina has a bill under consideration right now, with 21 sponsors, to make abortion a crime subject to the death penalty for the doctor and the woman.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/pol...alty-rcna75060

Our politics are not unique, or the most radical.


Nope.  There is more than enough ignorance and stupidstition to go around, across the nation!

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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I donít share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #309 on: March 23, 2023, 12:08:58 pm »



If people actually got out and voted in Oklahoma we could change the dynamic a lot. It's easier to blame Republicans though than accept the fact a lot of what is happening in Oklahoma now is Democrat & Independents fault for not showing up to vote. I'm not a Republican either, and until the state party and people who want to see things like education investments, better infrastructure, more economic development do some sole searching and accept we're part at fault and stop the incessant pity party things won't ever change. I blame Moderate Republicans too because they are increasingly staying home too and letting local, state, and national seats be highjacked with obstructionists who have no intention on enacting any policies and are only out for Twitter followers and culture war "wins" so they can grift off people.  

While Republicans do outnumber Democrats - there is a sizable Independent voter population that tends to not vote. If you add in Independents with Democrats there as many as republicans. It's something I can't seem to figure out is how to get Independent voters more involved and get Democrats to show up to the polls. Do they just hate the candidates that are running, do they think there's just no chance to win so they don't bother? I don't know - but it's frustrating to watch. Republicans have no problem in showing up to vote in Oklahoma and that's why are state wide elections tend to be lop sided as of late. When you have 60-70% of them show up and around 50% of Democrats/Independents you get what you get. Nearly 50K Republicans did not vote for Stitt or Walters that voted for Mullin and others. If just a small portion of more democrats showed up both of them would no longer be in office. Only way to change is to get people to vote more or hope the large influx of population to Oklahoma will show up and vote and move things more back to the middle.  



Apathy has always been a problem.  My first efforts at voter registration activities began mid/late 60's, starting when I was about 14-15.  Talking one on one, people will often sound enthused and ready to go do the right thing... vote!   Then when you do get feedback, you find they didn't even bother to register!  You learn to proselytize all you can and just keep on moving, cause with some it "takes" but most it never will.  

Goes to the quote at the bottom of my profile,

"I donít share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone."


Corollary to the early voter recruitment efforts were protests against unjust wars.  Starting with VietNam, and most recently our Imperialistic Voyeurism in Iraq.   First one got some great doses of tear gas at TU!  More recently, technology has made it possible to post on places like here - much more comfortable than breathing tear gas!  And may be slightly more effective?

Oh, yeah - and literally getting kicked out - physically picked up and thrown out the front door - of the church I had attended for years due to trying to get people to donate blood to the Red Cross in 1968, while the RC was desperately pleading for donations!  (Because it was under the auspices of the Moratorium on the War in VietNam.)

Ignorance and Stupidstition.

« Last Edit: March 23, 2023, 12:19:48 pm by heironymouspasparagus » Logged

"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I donít share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
Red Arrow
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« Reply #310 on: March 23, 2023, 01:10:47 pm »

Corollary to the early voter recruitment efforts were protests against unjust wars.  Starting with VietNam, and most recently our Imperialistic Voyeurism in Iraq.   First one got some great doses of tear gas at TU!  More recently, technology has made it possible to post on places like here - much more comfortable than breathing tear gas!  And may be slightly more effective?
...Moratorium on the War in VietNam.)

I kind of remember a Moratorium on the War in Viet Nam day when I was in College.  I was against the War but have always been reluctant to join mob activities.  Mom and I went fishing on the Chesapeake Bay.

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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #311 on: March 23, 2023, 06:03:45 pm »

I kind of remember a Moratorium on the War in Viet Nam day when I was in College.  I was against the War but have always been reluctant to join mob activities.  Mom and I went fishing on the Chesapeake Bay.




Much the same as today.  Half the country was blind fascists and the other half knew what was going on in VietNam was wrong and should be stopped.  Nixon's first year saw over 10,000 new dead US military.  Tulsa Whirled used to print the casualty lists.

Protests here were at the U on TU campus and TPD got to play with all their tear gas toys against peaceful marchers/protestors.

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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I donít share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
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« Reply #312 on: March 29, 2023, 09:42:57 am »


ďIf youíve got a global corporation that is concerned about the look of things and actually is concerned about the quality of life all their employees will have, sometimes Oklahoma makes itself tough to sell."

https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/why-three-major-companies-have-passed-on-expanding-in-oklahoma/
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
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« Reply #313 on: April 12, 2023, 07:54:22 pm »

Yes, and unlike MAIP it's 30 miles from downtown Tulsa and even closer to parts of east Tulsa and Broken Arrow.  It has rail access and a barge slip on the Verdigris River.  It would be a fantastic site for one of these megafactories.




Keep this on your radar. Large green manufacturer is in play for this site.
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Tulsan
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« Reply #314 on: April 12, 2023, 07:56:58 pm »

Take it with a grain of salt - because nobody knows - but I heard rumors that Panasonic may split the factory and do both sites to ensure they can fill all positions.

This is still in play also.
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