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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: shavethewhales on June 17, 2021, 10:15:39 am



Title: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: shavethewhales on June 17, 2021, 10:15:39 am
https://ktul.com/news/local/electric-car-plant-coming-to-pryor

Auto manufacturer Canoo has announced it will bring 2,000 high-paying jobs to MidAmerica Industrial Park with new production site.

I have never heard of Canoo, and their cars look ridiculous, but I'm excited for the jobs! We didn't get Tesla, but this could be a great catalyst for us all the same!

Their vans do look pretty useful, but their truck model is going to need a work-over... At least they are unique!


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on June 17, 2021, 10:39:20 am
https://ktul.com/news/local/electric-car-plant-coming-to-pryor

Auto manufacturer Canoo has announced it will bring 2,000 high-paying jobs to MidAmerica Industrial Park with new production site.

I have never heard of Canoo, and their cars look ridiculous, but I'm excited for the jobs! We didn't get Tesla, but this could be a great catalyst for us all the same!

Their vans do look pretty useful, but their truck model is going to need a work-over... At least they are unique!

These EV manufacturers will develop clusters in different parts of the country.  Getting one plant should enable us to get others as the labor pool builds up and suppliers are attracted to the area.  This bodes well for potentially attracting other manufacturers like Tesla or Rivian. 


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on June 17, 2021, 11:47:42 am
https://ktul.com/news/local/electric-car-plant-coming-to-pryor

Auto manufacturer Canoo has announced it will bring 2,000 high-paying jobs to MidAmerica Industrial Park with new production site.

I have never heard of Canoo, and their cars look ridiculous, but I'm excited for the jobs! We didn't get Tesla, but this could be a great catalyst for us all the same!

Their vans do look pretty useful, but their truck model is going to need a work-over... At least they are unique!

I had never heard of this group either. The cargo van does actually look pretty useful and could be a huge market given Amazon is moving to electric delivery vans. I'm sure at some point UPS, Fedex, etc. will move that way too and seems like they are positions to be an alternative to Rivian for that segment. The truck is a bit odd to say the least. It looks more like a recreation vehicle than an actual practical everyday car. It looks like something you'd have at a vacation house to go off roading or something.

I hope this group is successful. Would definitely give our region a leg up when anyone else is looking for new locations for battery and/or electric car production by co-locating.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: TheArtist on June 17, 2021, 03:45:48 pm
Still a very speculative company, but really hope this works out.  Speaking of electric trucks, my old truck is hanging in there but want a new one and would like to go electric.  Would like a Tesla but am now looking at the new Ford Maverick Hybrid.  Small and inexpensive, which is great for city parking, but will still get the job done work wise, and has some nice features. The Canoo Truck looks nice and also has some fun extra features, but can't hold out that long to get something. Air just went out in the old truck, got it working again but the poor old thing aint gonna last long lol.

Will be needing a new car soon as well which is what we may hold out for in getting an all electric vehicle. They need to get these electric vehicles online asap!


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Red Arrow on June 17, 2021, 04:01:41 pm
Air just went out in the old truck, got it working again but the poor old thing aint gonna last long lol.

I waited until the transmission went on my old car to get a new one.  The AC wasn't working for several years.   ;D


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on June 17, 2021, 06:14:38 pm
Still a very speculative company, but really hope this works out.  Speaking of electric trucks, my old truck is hanging in there but want a new one and would like to go electric.  Would like a Tesla but am now looking at the new Ford Maverick Hybrid.  Small and inexpensive, which is great for city parking, but will still get the job done work wise, and has some nice features. The Canoo Truck looks nice and also has some fun extra features, but can't hold out that long to get something. Air just went out in the old truck, got it working again but the poor old thing aint gonna last long lol.

Will be needing a new car soon as well which is what we may hold out for in getting an all electric vehicle. They need to get these electric vehicles online asap!

Off topic I know, but you might look into the plug in hybrids. Volvo's go 20-30 miles on a charge depending on the model and then have a gas tank that kicks in after that. That range gets you pretty much anywhere in town and really only use gas for longer road trips. The XC40's are a decent size and good quality and they have 100% electric version already available. The bigger SUV's XC60 & 90 have all electric models coming out in the next 12 months too. Volvo is pretty under the radar but their battery and hybrid tech is probably the closest to Tesla - just doesn't get the same attention. There's still pretty hefty tax credits for electric cars too.  

I do hope this is not a Foxconn type situation, where nothing pans out. I hope this company is successful and hopefully if they are announcing a plant for production they've got some customers lined up. The delivery/service industry seems like a good area to go after, there's not a dominate electric car producer in that segment. Tesla seems uninterested in delivery vans. Rivian is still pretty new and is likely only going to be focused on Amazon vehicle deliveries for a few years so that leaves that market wide open for someone like Canoo if they can execute on product.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: AdamsHall on June 17, 2021, 07:32:32 pm
I had never heard of this group either. The cargo van does actually look pretty useful and could be a huge market given Amazon is moving to electric delivery vans. I'm sure at some point UPS, Fedex, etc. will move that way too and seems like they are positions to be an alternative to Rivian for that segment. The truck is a bit odd to say the least. It looks more like a recreation vehicle than an actual practical everyday car. It looks like something you'd have at a vacation house to go off roading or something.

I hope this group is successful. Would definitely give our region a leg up when anyone else is looking for new locations for battery and/or electric car production by co-locating.

I have been following this group for a while.  I think/hope they are legit.  It is an odd looking vehicle, but some of the off-road rigged out versions are pretty interesting looking.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on June 18, 2021, 08:20:15 am
Great news, hope it works out! Would love for Tulsa to build some EV momentum. Tesla is a big name, but certainly not going to be the only company building manufacturing plants.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Laramie on June 18, 2021, 09:05:45 am

(https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gannett-cdn.com%2F-mm-%2Ffa914244af5254218ff03a5d6773eeb3b7df7f39%2Fc%3D0-100-1920-1180%2Flocal%2F-%2Fmedia%2F2021%2F06%2F05%2FUSATODAY%2Fusatsports%2FMotleyFool-TMOT-113d6aa4-canoo.jpg%3Fwidth%3D1200&t=1624028148&ymreqid=25fbd58b-0389-fdf5-1cfe-520001019200&sig=otjOB38.AF0UX6zKPg24rg--~D)
Oklahoman, 06-18-2021

Electric Car Plant, good news for our sister city of Tulsa.   A plant of this size and magnitude is sure to attract a number of satellite companies to neighboring Tulsa.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Laramie on June 20, 2021, 10:45:20 am
This factory will be a great boost for the area.  Most of your skilled work force will be hired from the Tulsa metro area requiring an easy 44 minute drive or less on I-44 from Tulsa to Pryor.  Credit Governor Stitt who I understand was instrumental in making this possible.

Admit I' m not a fan of Governor Stitt who I like to refer to as Governor 'Jethro Bodine' Stitt; however give credit where credit is due.  Also the bidding process from the attempts to lure Tesla may have played to Tulsa advantage.  Think about the Oklahoma Quality Jobs Program which is sure to benefit Canoo .  

Now if Oklahoma can slowly phase out the State's personal income tax, it won't put Oklahoma on an even playing field; however it will be a feather in Oklahoma's cap.  You have to remember that our electric grid in Oklahoma is tied to grids throughout.  Texas is beginning to experience problems with its grid.

The last major car plant in Oklahoma was GM in Oklahoma County.  Oklahoma City was able to get an agreement with the county that the school districts wouldn't apply for school tax incentives.  Someone in Mid Del District got the big head; demanded the school districts get their due.  When plant closures hit GM, looks like some higher up in GM gave the OKC plant the ax.


The Oklahoma City GM Plant was a modern plant (now apart of Tinker AFB) with good production as they began manufacturing I believe were A frames and some early SUVs.   All that became history.  Anyway, it strengthened Tinker AFB once the county and city were able to acquire the plant.

Anyway, best of luck with Canoo.  Don't know much about their track record--hope this comes to fruition as they work cooperatively with the community and the Tulsa metro.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Red Arrow on June 20, 2021, 11:27:43 am
Now if Oklahoma can slowly phase out the State's personal income tax, it won't put Oklahoma on an even playing field; however it will be a feather in Oklahoma's cap.

What taxes would you add or increase to make up for the loss of the income tax?



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on June 20, 2021, 12:43:40 pm
What taxes would you add or increase to make up for the loss of the income tax?



Exactly. It has to be made up somewhere, yet everyone seems to ignore that. Because TEXAS DOES IT! That's good enough right haha?

 

Now if Oklahoma can slowly phase out the State's personal income tax, it won't put Oklahoma on an even playing field; however it will be a feather in Oklahoma's cap.  


Texas also has some of the most outrageous property taxes in the country. Anyone who makes less than $300,000 in Texas has a higher tax burden there than they do in Oklahoma. Your property taxes in Texas are as much or more than an average mortgage payment every month. For low, middle, and even upper middle income people in Texas, your effective tax rate can be close to 30% (not counting your federal tax rate either)... the ONLY people that tax structure actually benefits is incredibly wealthy people who have a disproportionate income to housing cost ratio.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Red Arrow on June 20, 2021, 01:11:44 pm
Exactly. It has to be made up somewhere, yet everyone seems to ignore that. Because TEXAS DOES IT! That's good enough right haha?

Texas also has some of the most outrageous property taxes in the country. Anyone who makes less than $300,000 in Texas has a higher tax burden there than they do in Oklahoma. Your property taxes in Texas are as much or more than an average mortgage payment every month. For low, middle, and even upper middle income people in Texas, your effective tax rate can be close to 30%... the ONLY people that tax structure actually benefits is incredibly wealthy people who have a disproportionate income to housing cost ratio.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=beatles+taxman&view=detail&mid=5ACF02BDEDB508E1C1C05ACF02BDEDB508E1C1C0&FORM=VIRE0&ru=%2fsearch%3fq%3dbeatles%2btaxman%26qs%3dEP%26pq%3dbeatles%2btax%26sc%3d8-11%26cvid%3dC1799E5C4D3B4E47AC0A4F3F16BED38B%26FORM%3dQBLH%26sp%3d1



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on June 28, 2021, 10:36:43 am
Still a very speculative company, but really hope this works out.  Speaking of electric trucks, my old truck is hanging in there but want a new one and would like to go electric.  Would like a Tesla but am now looking at the new Ford Maverick Hybrid.  Small and inexpensive, which is great for city parking, but will still get the job done work wise, and has some nice features. The Canoo Truck looks nice and also has some fun extra features, but can't hold out that long to get something. Air just went out in the old truck, got it working again but the poor old thing aint gonna last long lol.

Will be needing a new car soon as well which is what we may hold out for in getting an all electric vehicle. They need to get these electric vehicles online asap!

The all-electric F-150, while not small, is tempting. Being able to power your house for 10 days with it is a big plus with PSO's annual ohnoeswehadsastormandwemightgetpowerbackoninaweek festival.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on June 28, 2021, 10:40:45 am
Exactly. It has to be made up somewhere, yet everyone seems to ignore that. Because TEXAS DOES IT! That's good enough right haha?

Texas also has some of the most outrageous property taxes in the country. Anyone who makes less than $300,000 in Texas has a higher tax burden there than they do in Oklahoma. Your property taxes in Texas are as much or more than an average mortgage payment every month. For low, middle, and even upper middle income people in Texas, your effective tax rate can be close to 30% (not counting your federal tax rate either)... the ONLY people that tax structure actually benefits is incredibly wealthy people who have a disproportionate income to housing cost ratio.

It is cute when our Texas friends brag about no income tax but then have so much more in property taxes, vehicle taxes, and on and on and on. Also they were awfully quiet about how crazy their electric bill was during that cold snap - wonder why.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on June 28, 2021, 11:06:50 am
Back to the Canoo topic -  I don't think they're vaporware but I don't see any future where they're going to survive for very long. They absolutely don't need a car factory and I think having one will put them under posthaste. Seems like they're trying to jump from baby steps to an outright run which is a surefire recipe for disaster. If they have a contract to build that jellybean minivan at VDL Nedcar, then they should first see the market reaction to their product before going all out. Perfect the recipe and if folks dig it then expand. Besides, I can't imagine running your own factory can be any cheaper than having these cars built at someone else's factory and then shipping them over. Do they honestly think they have anything that anyone is going to want to buy 150000 of a year? That's more cars than VDL Nedcar makes a year and they build or have built cars for just about everyone. I wish them all the best and I hope they are magically successful but right now it just feels like they're punch drunk with investor money which they think is going to keep coming in so lets not plan very long term. Honestly - once the big established car manufacturers really start kicking out electric vehicles in the next few years it's going to be another dot-com bubble with all these little independents.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on June 28, 2021, 11:31:25 pm
Hoping for the best with Canoo but it’s still an unproven start-up.  If not Canoo though there will likely be others and the 412 (future Interstate) corridor is well-positioned for them either at the Tesla site in East Tulsa, Port of Inola and/or Mid-America.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: TulsaBeMore on June 29, 2021, 10:11:54 pm
Hoping for the best with Canoo but it’s still an unproven start-up.  If not Canoo though there will likely be others and the 412 (future Interstate) corridor is well-positioned for them either at the Tesla site in East Tulsa, Port of Inola and/or Mid-America.

I could be wrong, but what little research I did the day this was announced showed a regulatory inquiry into the management of Canoo as the founders and initial c-suite resigned abruptly over course of a year or two.  Wishing for the best, not surprised if it doesn't happen.  Hopefully, the state & other local stakeholders are being smart with the inducement money.    


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on August 17, 2021, 07:31:57 am
Still some hurdles ahead for this company but this is positive news

 https://techcrunch.com/2021/08/16/ev-startup-canoo-is-gearing-up-for-production-in-oklahoma-factory/ (https://techcrunch.com/2021/08/16/ev-startup-canoo-is-gearing-up-for-production-in-oklahoma-factory/)

Anyone heard of Francis Energy?  It’s a Tulsa-based EV charging start up that seems to be on a hiring growth spurt.

 https://francis.energy/ (https://francis.energy/)


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on November 16, 2021, 08:16:29 am
Electric vehicle maker Canoo to add 375 Tulsa jobs, locate technology hub, software development centers

https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/electric-vehicle-maker-canoo-to-add-375-tulsa-jobs-locate-technology-hub-software-development-centers/article_ec708908-4641-11ec-80ac-9f4412bb7314.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: smitteebc on November 16, 2021, 09:24:37 am
The article also said they have plans to move their HQ to Bentonville, which is interesting. Obviously I would much rather that come to Oklahoma, but this seems like a positive for the plant and these new Tulsa jobs to become a reality.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on November 16, 2021, 09:56:12 am
The article also said they have plans to move their HQ to Bentonville, which is interesting. Obviously I would much rather that come to Oklahoma, but this seems like a positive for the plant and these new Tulsa jobs to become a reality.

My best guess to this move is Walmart is going to be ordering a bunch of their vans for delivery maybe or something like that... maybe even JBHunt?

Walmart has a requirement if you're a vendor you have to have a presence in NWA. That's what's really accelerated NWA growth the last 20 years really. So they open a small HQ office in NWA to kiss up to Walmart and the vast majority of jobs are in Oklahoma. Just my best guess, I don't really have any info to back that up but it seems to make sense.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on November 16, 2021, 05:28:37 pm
My best guess to this move is Walmart is going to be ordering a bunch of their vans for delivery maybe or something like that... maybe even JBHunt?

Walmart has a requirement if you're a vendor you have to have a presence in NWA. That's what's really accelerated NWA growth the last 20 years really. So they open a small HQ office in NWA to kiss up to Walmart and the vast majority of jobs are in Oklahoma. Just my best guess, I don't really have any info to back that up but it seems to make sense.

There appeared to be a rendering in the press release about the Tulsa R&D center.  Any thoughts on whether this goes downtown?  375 new tech jobs would be a nice shot in the arm


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: smitteebc on November 17, 2021, 09:43:00 pm
There appeared to be a rendering in the press release about the Tulsa R&D center.  Any thoughts on whether this goes downtown?  375 new tech jobs would be a nice shot in the arm
That picture was from the original announcement for the Pryor plant. The rendering was for that I believe.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 17, 2021, 10:00:31 pm
My best guess to this move is Walmart is going to be ordering a bunch of their vans for delivery maybe or something like that... maybe even JBHunt?

Walmart has a requirement if you're a vendor you have to have a presence in NWA. That's what's really accelerated NWA growth the last 20 years really. So they open a small HQ office in NWA to kiss up to Walmart and the vast majority of jobs are in Oklahoma. Just my best guess, I don't really have any info to back that up but it seems to make sense.


Didn't say how many, but Walmart has ordered some Tesla Semis.


https://www.businessinsider.com/companies-that-ordered-tesla-semi-2017-12?op=1



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on November 18, 2021, 12:08:10 pm

Didn't say how many, but Walmart has ordered some Tesla Semis.


https://www.businessinsider.com/companies-that-ordered-tesla-semi-2017-12?op=1



It would make sense for Canoo to look into Semi's given their other vehicles. My bet is Walmart is looking into an Amazon type structure where they'll have their own delivery services in major markets as well and thus would need lots of cargo vans. Outside of Rivian that's not really another EV company that has offerings like Canoo in the cargo van category. I'd think FedEx and UPS, etc. would be prime targets for Canoo. Even if Walmart isn't ordering vehicles from them yet I'd bet they are becoming an investor at least if they are picking up and moving the HQ from California to move to NWA. 


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on November 18, 2021, 01:34:23 pm
There appeared to be a rendering in the press release about the Tulsa R&D center.  Any thoughts on whether this goes downtown?  375 new tech jobs would be a nice shot in the arm

I've heard there's this snazzy new building downtown on Detroit that could totally use some tenants...



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on February 07, 2022, 03:03:41 pm
https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/mayes-county-examines-proposed-tif-for-midamerica-industrial-park/article_1178e8ba-83ac-11ec-b70f-1fdf01298260.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1 (https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/mayes-county-examines-proposed-tif-for-midamerica-industrial-park/article_1178e8ba-83ac-11ec-b70f-1fdf01298260.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1)

Anyone have any info on companies looking at Mid America? In the article they said:

"Stewart projects that private investment in the TIF, if approved, would be $5 billion to $6 billion over the first five years of the TIF, which is capped by state statute at 25 years."

The TIF will only cover undeveloped land currently - so sounds like they have some massive potential projects in the pipeline. Maybe additional data centers? $5-6 Billion is a lot, the Canoo factory is only estimated at around $400 million.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on February 07, 2022, 05:38:23 pm
https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/mayes-county-examines-proposed-tif-for-midamerica-industrial-park/article_1178e8ba-83ac-11ec-b70f-1fdf01298260.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1 (https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/mayes-county-examines-proposed-tif-for-midamerica-industrial-park/article_1178e8ba-83ac-11ec-b70f-1fdf01298260.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1)

Anyone have any info on companies looking at Mid America? In the article they said:

"Stewart projects that private investment in the TIF, if approved, would be $5 billion to $6 billion over the first five years of the TIF, which is capped by state statute at 25 years."

The TIF will only cover undeveloped land currently - so sounds like they have some massive potential projects in the pipeline. Maybe additional data centers? $5-6 Billion is a lot, the Canoo factory is only estimated at around $400 million.

Semiconductor fabs in Texas and Ohio are closer to $20B.  Could be a data center or possibly something related to Canoo/EV's like batteries.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on February 07, 2022, 05:40:12 pm
It would make sense for Canoo to look into Semi's given their other vehicles. My bet is Walmart is looking into an Amazon type structure where they'll have their own delivery services in major markets as well and thus would need lots of cargo vans. Outside of Rivian that's not really another EV company that has offerings like Canoo in the cargo van category. I'd think FedEx and UPS, etc. would be prime targets for Canoo. Even if Walmart isn't ordering vehicles from them yet I'd bet they are becoming an investor at least if they are picking up and moving the HQ from California to move to NWA.  

I'm worried by the time Canoo manages to build something it's not going to matter. Ford has started production of it's E-Transit Electric Van and deliveries will probably start next month. With Ford already owning 40% of the cargo van market, this will only expand that which leaves even less pie for Canoo to get a slice of. Rivian has their cargo vans for Amazon already out - the small ones are being delivered with the two larger sizes in the works, GM's new BrightDrop division is already delivering it's EV600 to FedEx and WalMart and I read will be taking orders in general soon, and the Mercedes eSprinter is coming out next year in the US but is already out in Europe (plus an electric version of their Metris). Plus - the Dodge ProMaster is available in Europe as an electric currently as is the Nissan NV200 and since both of those are already sold here as ICE versions the electric ones could appear at any time.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on February 07, 2022, 05:45:37 pm
I'm worried by the time Canoo manages to build something it's not going to matter. Ford has started production of it's E-Transit Electric Van and deliveries will probably start next month. With Ford already owning 40% of the cargo van market, this will only expand that which leaves even less pie for Canoo to get a slice of. Rivian has their cargo vans for Amazon already out - the small ones are being delivered with the two larger sizes in the works, GM's new BrightDrop division is already delivering it's EV600 to FedEx and WalMart and I read will be taking orders in general soon, and the Mercedes eSprinter is coming out next year in the US but is already out in Europe (plus an electric version of their Metris). Plus - the Dodge ProMaster is available in Europe as an electric currently as is the Nissan NV200 and since both of those are already sold here as ICE versions the electric ones could appear at any time.

IMO, a lot depends on the strength of Canoo's connection to Wal-Mart. 


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on February 08, 2022, 11:25:57 am
I will say... Canoo is really pushing to hire and move talent to Tulsa. We'll see if they're successful as a company, but they're making decent hiring investments in Tulsa.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on February 08, 2022, 02:17:26 pm
I will say... Canoo is really pushing to hire and move talent to Tulsa. We'll see if they're successful as a company, but they're making decent hiring investments in Tulsa.

Indeed. Tulsa is prime to be the Silicone Prairie.

Incidentally here's a new article on CNN specifically talking about how the EV Van wars are heating up - https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/08/business/electric-vans-war/index.html


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on February 08, 2022, 02:34:25 pm
Indeed. Tulsa is prime to be the Silicone Prairie.

Incidentally here's a new article on CNN specifically talking about how the EV Van wars are heating up - https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/08/business/electric-vans-war/index.html

I did find it interesting that Walmart is noted in that article as a buyer from GM. My guess is Walmart will eventually move to a shipping model similar to Amazon that is less dependent on UPS/FedEx and will need thousands of vans/trucks. They will need more than one supplier as well similar to Amazon. Amazon is not only buying EVs from Rivian.

Canoo's HQ move to NWA seems like a natural fit to be a large supplier of vehicles to Walmart and I doubt Walmart will ever want to co-invest in any company Amazon is investing in, and Canoo is one of the few that has a product even remotely close to being able to go into production that Amazon, FedEx, or UPS isn't already heavily involved/invested.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Rattle Trap on February 08, 2022, 03:54:29 pm
https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/mayes-county-examines-proposed-tif-for-midamerica-industrial-park/article_1178e8ba-83ac-11ec-b70f-1fdf01298260.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1 (https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/mayes-county-examines-proposed-tif-for-midamerica-industrial-park/article_1178e8ba-83ac-11ec-b70f-1fdf01298260.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1)

Anyone have any info on companies looking at Mid America? In the article they said:

"Stewart projects that private investment in the TIF, if approved, would be $5 billion to $6 billion over the first five years of the TIF, which is capped by state statute at 25 years."

The TIF will only cover undeveloped land currently - so sounds like they have some massive potential projects in the pipeline. Maybe additional data centers? $5-6 Billion is a lot, the Canoo factory is only estimated at around $400 million.

Not sure how it relates to the TIF, but word on the street is Google is almost out of room at their current MAIP site and has already started preparation for a second MAIP site. They already own the land. A whole new site could easily amount to billions in development.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 08, 2022, 05:14:04 pm
I did find it interesting that Walmart is noted in that article as a buyer from GM. My guess is Walmart will eventually move to a shipping model similar to Amazon that is less dependent on UPS/FedEx and will need thousands of vans/trucks. They will need more than one supplier as well similar to Amazon. Amazon is not only buying EVs from Rivian.




Walmart is already a huge truck company now.  And way ahead of some of the bottom feeders like US Express and Covenant, who have several thousand tractors...




Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on February 10, 2022, 11:22:04 pm

Walmart is already a huge truck company now.  And way ahead of some of the bottom feeders like US Express and Covenant, who have several thousand tractors...




Semi's yes, but not on the delivery van side. If Walmart wants to challenge Amazon delivery wise they are going to need several thousand smaller delivery vans. Same with Amazon, there won't be one single company who can meet that demand.

Frankly, Walmart if it gets its game together could probably beat Amazon at its own game given its real estate footprint. They could utilize every store they have as a distribution center for same day delivery. Their advantage window is closing fast though given Amazon's pace of distribution center construction everywhere - and Walmart doesn't seem to be reacting very fast to counter Amazon.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on February 11, 2022, 09:39:36 pm
Latest rumor is that Panasonic is looking at Mid-America for a new battery plant.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Red Arrow on February 11, 2022, 11:14:59 pm
Latest rumor is that Panasonic is looking at Mid-America for a new battery plant.

They will probably want property off the end of the runway of the airport.  Then they will want the airport shut down for "safety" reasons.  :(


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on February 12, 2022, 10:17:03 am

MidAmerica Industrial Park reportedly in the running for huge electric vehicle battery plant

https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/midamerica-industrial-park-reportedly-in-the-running-for-huge-electric-vehicle-battery-plant/article_1ad6223a-8ba7-11ec-be98-038d51a330de.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1

Would be fantastic to land this... know the chamber is really working hard on this. Could start to build a decent EV space if we can get this going.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on February 12, 2022, 11:32:25 am
MidAmerica Industrial Park reportedly in the running for huge electric vehicle battery plant

https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/midamerica-industrial-park-reportedly-in-the-running-for-huge-electric-vehicle-battery-plant/article_1ad6223a-8ba7-11ec-be98-038d51a330de.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1

Would be fantastic to land this... know the chamber is really working hard on this. Could start to build a decent EV space if we can get this going.

It would be an awesome thing to get. Maybe we can lure it in by replacing the Golden Driller's head with a giant battery! No wait. Nevermind.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: patric on February 12, 2022, 01:29:32 pm
MidAmerica Industrial Park reportedly in the running for huge electric vehicle battery plant

https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/midamerica-industrial-park-reportedly-in-the-running-for-huge-electric-vehicle-battery-plant/article_1ad6223a-8ba7-11ec-be98-038d51a330de.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1

Would be fantastic to land this... know the chamber is really working hard on this. Could start to build a decent EV space if we can get this going.


Have we taken into consideration, and are we willing to accept, the risks involved with the hazardous waste and overall industrial risks of manufacturing Lithium ion, lithium-iron-phosphate or nickel-cobalt-aluminum etc. batteries?

And how close would we want such a facility to critical infrastructure like an airport?

The proposal sounds great for our economy -- if we have thought it out, but have we?


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: swake on February 12, 2022, 01:34:14 pm
Well, the location is 30 miles from TIA, so we will probably be fine.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Red Arrow on February 12, 2022, 11:07:32 pm
Well, the location is 30 miles from TIA, so we will probably be fine.

There is a golf course nearby.  Maybe that will get someone's attention.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 13, 2022, 05:20:15 am

Have we taken into consideration, and are we willing to accept, the risks involved with the hazardous waste and overall industrial risks of manufacturing Lithium ion, lithium-iron-phosphate or nickel-cobalt-aluminum etc. batteries?

And how close would we want such a facility to critical infrastructure like an airport?

The proposal sounds great for our economy -- if we have thought it out, but have we?

As opposed to the various chemical production company, a paper processing company, a gypsum processing company and a plastics company with all of their chemical byproducts and chemical production processes? There has been a lot of chemical waste production there going back 50 years or so.

Anhydrous ammonia has been one of the products at the Pryor Chemical plant there since the 70's.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: shavethewhales on February 14, 2022, 09:17:17 am
Lol, OK hasn't been worried about hazardous waste ever. We decimated the northeast corner of the state right into a superfund site and destroyed at least two towns in the process. There is heavy industry all over doing pretty much whatever they want. You should see the waste fires in Sapulpa that some of the companies in the industrial park burn at night to get rid of whatever they need to get rid of.

This facility would be amazing. It would be something more realistic than Canoo with about the same impact. Unfortunately it sounds like Kansas has a leg up with incentives, but our location is more logistically sound, IMO. Then again, our roads suck.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on February 14, 2022, 10:19:55 am
Lol, OK hasn't been worried about hazardous waste ever. We decimated the northeast corner of the state right into a superfund site and destroyed at least two towns in the process. There is heavy industry all over doing pretty much whatever they want. You should see the waste fires in Sapulpa that some of the companies in the industrial park burn at night to get rid of whatever they need to get rid of.

This facility would be amazing. It would be something more realistic than Canoo with about the same impact. Unfortunately it sounds like Kansas has a leg up with incentives, but our location is more logistically sound, IMO. Then again, our roads suck.

I bet Oklahoma will match anything and everything Kansas is, we just don't have to publicly vote on incentives the way it's set up here. They are already voting on the TIF, which is the only thing that has to be voted on because it requires school approvals - which I don't think the town in Kansas they are looking at has even gotten to that point. This is as big dollar wise or at least close to what Tesla was proposing to build and we offered them in excess of $1 billion in incentives from the state.

Mid-America has something that very very few places in the US can offer, that as soon as they close on the land they can start construction pretty much the next day. When they say 'shovel ready' they mean it, there are no city reviews, building plan approvals, etc. I don't believe they even require you to pull permits there (someone could correct me if I'm wrong there). From my understanding is that the Mid-America folks pretty much operate as its own city government. From everything I've been told by reps from there is that it's a rare set up that can save companies months/years in planning to get a facility under construction fast. They don't have to deal with any NIMBYs or local politics when trying to get the site built.

That might be enough to win it from Kansas if the incentives are close to the same.  


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 14, 2022, 10:25:21 pm
Semi's yes, but not on the delivery van side. If Walmart wants to challenge Amazon delivery wise they are going to need several thousand smaller delivery vans. Same with Amazon, there won't be one single company who can meet that demand.

Frankly, Walmart if it gets its game together could probably beat Amazon at its own game given its real estate footprint. They could utilize every store they have as a distribution center for same day delivery. Their advantage window is closing fast though given Amazon's pace of distribution center construction everywhere - and Walmart doesn't seem to be reacting very fast to counter Amazon.


Doesn't appear so far that Walmart wants to go that direction.   The certainly could if they wanted, though.   I would rather pick up at store anyway than have them deliver.



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on February 15, 2022, 06:12:20 am
In somewhat related electric vehicles in Oklahoma news - the Nature Conservancy just added a Rivian truck to the Tallgrass Prairie Reserve near Pawhuska - https://stories.rivian.com/tnc-tallgrass

(https://exposure.accelerator.net/production/photos/aftiqrnlt1nmfvrl0jin1es0702qwiam2iy8/original.jpg;resize(1200,675,crop).jpeg)


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on February 15, 2022, 07:21:19 pm
I'll also add that Panasonic is contracted to make batteries for Tesla and Toyota. Having Tesla in Austin and Toyota USA HQ is in Plano, Tulsa area is a lot closer. I'd assume the Tesla campaign probably helped get us into the final two locations.

I believe there's a direct Union Pacific freight rail line from Pryor that goes all the way to Austin. It's also an easy days drive down 69/75 to 35 to get to Austin. It's more than a days drive coming from KC. Logistically speaking the Pryor location is far better to the customers this plant would be serving.

The site in KC they are scouting is in De Soto - between outer burbs of KC and Lawrence. In a development called Sunflower that was a former ammunitions plant. This would be one of the first employers to go in there so its far less developed than Mid America.

Inola is probably going to be the size of Owasso here in a few years if we land this and Canoo gets off the ground. It's kind of half-way between Mid America and Tulsa so seems like a logical spot to see more residential development. Home prices in Pryor are already pretty high, they are going to have to solve the housing shortage problem in that area. Seems like a lot of the residential developers have been sleeping on that area.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Red Arrow on February 16, 2022, 01:15:46 am
I believe there's a direct Union Pacific freight rail line from Pryor that goes all the way to Austin.

UP goes to Ft Worth from Pryor.  Ft Worth to Austin shows UP lines but I don't know if it's a direct route.

Texas RR Map: https://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-info/tpp/maps/2016-railroad.pdf

Oklahoma RR Map:  https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/odot/documents/Rail%20Map%202018-2020.pdf

UP may have preferred directions on their routes too.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 16, 2022, 12:09:11 pm
I'll also add that Panasonic is contracted to make batteries for Tesla and Toyota. Having Tesla in Austin and Toyota USA HQ is in Plano, Tulsa area is a lot closer. I'd assume the Tesla campaign probably helped get us into the final two locations.

I believe there's a direct Union Pacific freight rail line from Pryor that goes all the way to Austin. It's also an easy days drive down 69/75 to 35 to get to Austin. It's more than a days drive coming from KC. Logistically speaking the Pryor location is far better to the customers this plant would be serving.

The site in KC they are scouting is in De Soto - between outer burbs of KC and Lawrence. In a development called Sunflower that was a former ammunitions plant. This would be one of the first employers to go in there so its far less developed than Mid America.

Inola is probably going to be the size of Owasso here in a few years if we land this and Canoo gets off the ground. It's kind of half-way between Mid America and Tulsa so seems like a logical spot to see more residential development. Home prices in Pryor are already pretty high, they are going to have to solve the housing shortage problem in that area. Seems like a lot of the residential developers have been sleeping on that area.



There is a large Mennonite presence in the area that owns a lot more of the land than might be obvious to begin.   Just like in Broken Arrow with their churches, there is likely to be big input from them.



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on February 16, 2022, 02:38:04 pm
Inola is probably going to be the size of Owasso here in a few years if we land this and Canoo gets off the ground. It's kind of half-way between Mid America and Tulsa so seems like a logical spot to see more residential development. Home prices in Pryor are already pretty high, they are going to have to solve the housing shortage problem in that area. Seems like a lot of the residential developers have been sleeping on that area.

Inola also has its own port on the Verdigris River and adjacent industrial park.  They could land a massive new factory there that would be closer to Tulsa/Broken Arrow.

(https://hot-town-images.s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/kotv/production/2019/October/10/pso-announces-1st-new-public-port-in-oklahoma-in-50-years.1570741345000-0.jpeg)


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 16, 2022, 03:45:45 pm
Lol, OK hasn't been worried about hazardous waste ever. We decimated the northeast corner of the state right into a superfund site and destroyed at least two towns in the process. There is heavy industry all over doing pretty much whatever they want. You should see the waste fires in Sapulpa that some of the companies in the industrial park burn at night to get rid of whatever they need to get rid of.

This facility would be amazing. It would be something more realistic than Canoo with about the same impact. Unfortunately it sounds like Kansas has a leg up with incentives, but our location is more logistically sound, IMO. Then again, our roads suck.

I grew up in Tulsa, born in 1963, so yes I do remember all of the heavy industry that lined Dawson Road, Charles Page Blvd, north side of downtown, and the area out near what was the turnpike gate. And yes I know all about the Picher/Cardin superfund site. I remember when Jimmy Inhofe want to use the chat from the tailing piles (mountains) to pave Oklahoma highways. I have ridden ATV's on those piles in the mid 70's and had friends that worked there before we knew how bad it was.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on February 17, 2022, 12:48:12 pm
Inola also has its own port on the Verdigris River and adjacent industrial park.  They could land a massive new factory there that would be closer to Tulsa/Broken Arrow.


I had forgot about this too - to me this is probably the most under estimated corridor in the MSA right now for future growth. If I was a land speculator the area east of the Creek Turnpike to Inola to Chouteau is prime to just explode population wise in the next 10 years. Lake Hudson is a really pretty area too, I could see it benefiting a lot with more residential growth around the lake.

The site that Tesla was looking at right there would make sense as a 'Tulsa Hills' type development, it would capture Claremore, Catoosa, Far north BA, and anything that develops to the east. You already have a decent amount of retail concentration around the Hard Rock too.

Frankly that might be really beneficial long term for the Tulsa area to develop more toward NWA and really build up the 412 corridor between the two cities. It would be better to align our MSA more with NWA than it is to OKC.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: swake on February 17, 2022, 01:28:43 pm
I had forgot about this too - to me this is probably the most under estimated corridor in the MSA right now for future growth. If I was a land speculator the area east of the Creek Turnpike to Inola to Chouteau is prime to just explode population wise in the next 10 years. Lake Hudson is a really pretty area too, I could see it benefiting a lot with more residential growth around the lake.

The site that Tesla was looking at right there would make sense as a 'Tulsa Hills' type development, it would capture Claremore, Catoosa, Far north BA, and anything that develops to the east. You already have a decent amount of retail concentration around the Hard Rock too.

Frankly that might be really beneficial long term for the Tulsa area to develop more toward NWA and really build up the 412 corridor between the two cities. It would be better to align our MSA more with NWA than it is to OKC.

412 is a future interstate corridor as well. Will it be I-50?


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on February 17, 2022, 02:50:11 pm
The site that Tesla was looking at right there would make sense as a 'Tulsa Hills' type development, it would capture Claremore, Catoosa, Far north BA, and anything that develops to the east. You already have a decent amount of retail concentration around the Hard Rock too.

They are marketing that site known as the Robson Industrial Park for large-scale manufacturing.  This is from the Advanced Mobility Cluster Project submittal which was green-lighted to the next round and could mean $70M in federal seed funds with additional matching funds from local governments and organizations.

Quote
Robson Industrial Park
The site represents 2,000 acres of high-visibility, privately-owned greenfield property at the
intersection of I-44 and US-412/future I-42, on Tulsa’s eastern edge; the acreage is a part of a larger
18,000 acre landholding by the Robson family and associated trust entities. The property is ideally
located outside of major residential areas, with proximity to port infrastructure and multi modal
transportation facilities. The property has seen steady interest from major industrial players and
was shortlisted by Tesla and Ford for the expansion of their electric vehicle projects. The
development of the proposed wastewater infrastructure at the site will contribute to the “pad
readiness” necessary to successfully attract Advanced Mobility players.

Tulsa Port of Inola
The site represents 2,500-acres of master-planned industrial space and has undergone a deep
technical and engineering investigation in anticipation of full development. A two million square
foot manufacturing and distribution facility is currently located at the site and 1,100 acres of the
property is “site-certified” for shovel-ready development. The Tulsa Port of Inola site is central to
the creation of stronger urban/rural linkages across the Advanced Mobility value chain.
Additionally, the site offers unique logistics infrastructure in the form of an on-site barge slip and
existing rail service. The development of the proposed wastewater infrastructure at the site will
provide the “pad readiness” necessary to successfully attract Advanced Mobility players.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on February 17, 2022, 02:50:43 pm
412 is a future interstate corridor as well. Will it be I-50?

It will be I-42


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on February 17, 2022, 05:42:11 pm
It will be I-42

I-42 is a proposed corridor in North Carolina afaik


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 18, 2022, 09:13:05 pm
Just had a thought a while ago....Texas is supposed to be "all that and a bag of chips..." in the economy, technology, and so much 'good stuff'.   So why is it with only about 25% smaller population - could be considered close to on par with California - that California has 400% more patents than Texas??

Are they just comparing themselves to their closest intellectual equivalents and kindred spirits, like Mississippi?  Or Alabama? 



Lol...just had to go there...!


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: swake on February 18, 2022, 09:26:56 pm
Just had a thought a while ago....Texas is supposed to be "all that and a bag of chips..." in the economy, technology, and so much 'good stuff'.   So why is it with only about 25% smaller population - could be considered close to on par with California - that California has 400% more patents than Texas??

Are they just comparing themselves to their closest intellectual equivalents and kindred spirits, like Mississippi?  Or Alabama? 



Lol...just had to go there...!


The center of world wide tech is the Bay Area.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on February 18, 2022, 10:06:10 pm
I-42 is a proposed corridor in North Carolina afaik

You’re right.  That is what was in the AMC submittal.  I-50 is as good a guess as any


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Red Arrow on February 18, 2022, 11:51:47 pm
Just had a thought a while ago....Texas is supposed to be "all that and a bag of chips..." in the economy, technology, and so much 'good stuff'.   So why is it with only about 25% smaller population - could be considered close to on par with California - that California has 400% more patents than Texas??

I turned down a transfer to the Bay Area in the late 80s due to the cost of living and no significant increase in salary.



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on February 22, 2022, 05:11:11 pm
https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/state-looking-to-lure-huge-company-to-eastern-oklahoma-governor-says/article_35f330de-9418-11ec-a7ff-df324fdf3242.html#tracking-source=home-top-story (https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/state-looking-to-lure-huge-company-to-eastern-oklahoma-governor-says/article_35f330de-9418-11ec-a7ff-df324fdf3242.html#tracking-source=home-top-story)

This article also says that Canoo has an agreement with Panasonic to supply its batteries as well. That is a huge upside for us landing the battery plant instead of Kansas. They'd have a client right in the same park plus Tesla's plant being closer to Mid America than Kansas. Not sure where Toyota is planning to build any of their electric cars but like I said before their USA HQ is in Plano.

The Canoo plant has officially started moving dirt too. Even if they collapse in a year or two if they get the factory built then that is an upside to me, because another EV player is likely to buy the site.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Laramie on February 22, 2022, 07:42:48 pm

(https://news.panasonic.com/global/press/data/2017/04/en170427-2/en170427-2-1.jpg)

Quote
Now the unnamed company will weigh the state’s massive incentive package, which could cost taxpayers some $1.3 billion. Kansas is competing against its neighbor to the south, as public officials there seek to lure the project to the Tulsa area. A small Oklahoma newspaper identified Panasonic as the likely company behind top-secret negotiations there...

...Some 216 miles to the south, officials hope to see the plant rise up at the MidAmerica Industrial Park in Pryor, Oklahoma, about 45 miles outside of Tulsa. That park is already home to dozens of industries and local officials have been considering new tax breaks for a 700-acre portion of land.


Link Kansas City Star: https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article258307028.html (https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article258307028.html)

This will be big if Oklahoma can secure this company.



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on February 23, 2022, 11:33:31 am
IF Canoo builds as planned and the Panasonic factory goes in that would be huge for building up the EV industry cluster in this area.  It definitely would pull the Tulsa metro more to the east along 412/future interstate. 


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: shavethewhales on February 23, 2022, 11:59:12 am
IF Canoo builds as planned and the Panasonic factory goes in that would be huge for building up the EV industry cluster in this area.  It definitely would pull the Tulsa metro more to the east along 412/future interstate. 

Plus Google's continued expansions, plus other major employers moving in... Tulsa is going to morph into a supercluster with NWA over time. I'm not a huge fan of this because I don't like sprawl, but it's a good location for it I guess since we are in the middle of the country yet have the inland port and theoretically good shipping routes. We just need a better route to Dallas and then we are set as a destination for these types of things.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on February 23, 2022, 01:24:07 pm
https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/state-looking-to-lure-huge-company-to-eastern-oklahoma-governor-says/article_35f330de-9418-11ec-a7ff-df324fdf3242.html#tracking-source=home-top-story (https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/state-looking-to-lure-huge-company-to-eastern-oklahoma-governor-says/article_35f330de-9418-11ec-a7ff-df324fdf3242.html#tracking-source=home-top-story)

This article also says that Canoo has an agreement with Panasonic to supply its batteries as well. That is a huge upside for us landing the battery plant instead of Kansas. They'd have a client right in the same park plus Tesla's plant being closer to Mid America than Kansas. Not sure where Toyota is planning to build any of their electric cars but like I said before their USA HQ is in Plano.

The Canoo plant has officially started moving dirt too. Even if they collapse in a year or two if they get the factory built then that is an upside to me, because another EV player is likely to buy the site.

That is one good thing about the EV industry right now - even though most if not all of them are going to go bankrupt at least they're pouring their money into local economies while they have it. Another potential bonus - bringing blue state employees into red states!


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Red Arrow on February 23, 2022, 03:10:55 pm
Another potential bonus - bringing blue state employees into red states!

That might be a tough sell.



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 25, 2022, 12:56:28 pm
I turned down a transfer to the Bay Area in the late 80s due to the cost of living and no significant increase in salary.




I had a great job offer there long, long ago with different company.  Money MORE than made up the difference.  Just couldn't see leaving all this...tornadoes, earthquakes, drought, flood, etc.   Where else can one get some much concentrated self-abuse in one conveniently located, concentrated package of suffering...?

Plus, would have put the kids another 2,000 mi away, and it is hard enough to see some of them now.



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Red Arrow on February 26, 2022, 10:19:29 pm
I had a great job offer there long, long ago with different company.  Money MORE than made up the difference.  Just couldn't see leaving all this...tornadoes, earthquakes, drought, flood, etc.   Where else can one get some much concentrated self-abuse in one conveniently located, concentrated package of suffering...?
Plus, would have put the kids another 2,000 mi away, and it is hard enough to see some of them now.

Changing companies was the way to get ahead out there.  I went for a project review around 1986.  The base was Sunnyvale. I always drive around a bit.  In this case it was Los Gatos that was nearby. Houses that would have sold in Tulsa for maybe $65K all had Mercedes, Cadillac, Lincoln etc cars in the driveways.  Turns out the houses were at least $200K.  Ouch.  "My" company only offered about $100/month.  Not worth the move.

Weather.... we don't have the worst of hurricanes (In spite of TU's flags).  At least most of the time our cold spells are relatively short.  My sister once said she was going to tie a snow shovel to the top of her car and drive south until someone asked "what's that on top of your car?"

I never had kids so that would not have been an issue for me.  Aviation contacts and hangar rents would have been a BIG problem.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on February 28, 2022, 03:59:19 pm
Canoo put out their fourth quarter and fiscal year 2021 results today. One thing I found interesting is they claim the state of OK has agreed to purchase 1000 vehicles but didn't really say anything else further on it.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/canoo-inc-announces-fourth-quarter-and-fiscal-year-2021-results-301492051.html


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Laramie on March 06, 2022, 09:53:22 pm
Hope the two (Pryor auto factory & battery plant) come to fruition; this will be a big boost to Tulsa area economy and an increase in City & MSA population.  Wish Tulsa the best.

Tulsa IMO has a good chance to acquire both.   Oklahoma Quality Jobs Incentive Program - Quick Action Closing Fund ($15 million): https://www.okcommerce.gov/doing-business/business-relocation-expansion/incentives/quality-jobs-incentive-program/ (https://www.okcommerce.gov/doing-business/business-relocation-expansion/incentives/quality-jobs-incentive-program/)  Canoo estimated to supply 2,000 jobs.

Go Tulsa!


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: buffalodan on March 07, 2022, 08:38:31 am
https://electrek.co/2022/02/21/tesla-asks-fans-oklahoma-mississippi-to-fight-new-bills-ban-direct-sales-electric-cars/

It seems weird that we are courting people to build them while pissing them off about selling them. I don't really understand why Canoo can't lobby against this just a bit more. I get that dealers have more dollars than canoo does, but figured they would have made this a bit more of a PR move. Manufacturing jobs against car salesman jobs.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Laramie on March 07, 2022, 12:09:52 pm
https://electrek.co/2022/02/21/tesla-asks-fans-oklahoma-mississippi-to-fight-new-bills-ban-direct-sales-electric-cars/

It seems weird that we are courting people to build them while pissing them off about selling them. I don't really understand why Canoo can't lobby against this just a bit more. I get that dealers have more dollars than canoo does, but figured they would have made this a bit more of a PR move. Manufacturing jobs against car salesman jobs.

Definitely understand what you're saying.  Canoo figures that they need to spend their time building that plant, PR and less on acknowledging
vices.  

It's going to take years to build up the 'trust factor' in EV and building the infrastructure.   Oklahoma received $66 million (5 years) from the Biden Infrastructure bill.  How the state divides these funds (TBD), we know the bulk of funds will go to our two largest cities.

KOKH-TV 25 OKC:  https://okcfox.com/news/local/heres-what-oklahoma-should-expect-from-the-12t-infrastructure-bill (https://okcfox.com/news/local/heres-what-oklahoma-should-expect-from-the-12t-infrastructure-bill)

BTW, heard the job numbers fluctuate from a low 1,000 to a high 6,000 jobs.  This will more than likely exceed 2,000 or more jobs for the Tulsa
metro and build the Pryor community noted for the Rocklahoma festival.  

Interesting articles from the Stillwater News Press https://www.stwnewspress.com/oklahoma/oklahoma-wants-to-be-the-home-of-electric-hydrogen-fueled-vehicles/article_5b4bdbae-929c-54a7-a9ce-8b9d2a5d44ce.html (https://www.stwnewspress.com/oklahoma/oklahoma-wants-to-be-the-home-of-electric-hydrogen-fueled-vehicles/article_5b4bdbae-929c-54a7-a9ce-8b9d2a5d44ce.html)



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Laramie on April 08, 2022, 12:03:55 pm
Opening date pushed back a year for Canoo EV:

Oklahoma has bet big on the EV startup Canoo Inc., offering hundreds of millions of dollars in incentives, plus a no-bid contract for state agencies to buy up to 1,000 vehicles, but the company has pushed back the projected opening date for an Oklahoma factory to 2024...

The Frontier:  https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/oklahomas-big-bet-on-an-electric-vehicle-startup/ (https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/oklahomas-big-bet-on-an-electric-vehicle-startup/)




Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Laramie on April 14, 2022, 07:56:06 pm
Breaking News:  

Lost Ogle:  Hearing rumors that Pansonic has told Stitt and Co. that Oklahoma has been chosen as the home for the company's new billion-dollar battery facility. No clue if it's true or not, but if so, you heard it heard first! If not, never mind.

https://twitter.com/thelostogle/status/1514732135613087753?s=21&t=FTdxF-z3prmVtAjRmD03OA (https://twitter.com/thelostogle/status/1514732135613087753?s=21&t=FTdxF-z3prmVtAjRmD03OA)

  Tulsa is on its way to becoming the next boom-town.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on April 18, 2022, 11:34:36 am
https://www.newson6.com/story/625d9a91c48e3e072000eadc/governor-stitt-to-announce-major-economic-development-opportunity (https://www.newson6.com/story/625d9a91c48e3e072000eadc/governor-stitt-to-announce-major-economic-development-opportunity)

Looks like Panasonic is being announced soon.

Stitt called the press conference but "can't name the company" lol. The press conference is basically to put the legislature on the spot to pass the economic incentives bills for investments over $1 billion. Sounds like Panasonic has said if you all pass the bills we will locate in Oklahoma, if not, we're going to Kansas. He's basically said they need to pass the bills by next Monday.

I found it really interesting that Kian Kamas (TAEO) and Mike Neal (Tulsa Chamber) are there and he pointed them out. Makes me wonder if Panasonic is going to have some offices in Tulsa too in addition to the plant in MAIP. MAIP reps were there as well.  


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on April 18, 2022, 01:13:54 pm
What're the odds the Legislature passes the bills? Don't really follow these things closely.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Jeff P on April 18, 2022, 01:32:27 pm
What're the odds the Legislature passes the bills? Don't really follow these things closely.

I would assume it's an easy pass with the GOP supermajority, but that's just an assumption on my part. I don't follow that closely either.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on April 19, 2022, 01:07:54 am
What're the odds the Legislature passes the bills? Don't really follow these things closely.

Part but not all of what Stitt wanted passed through Senate & House committee this evening and should be voted on and approved soon.

I have a feeling Panasonic got pissed the legislature is dragging their feet on this while passing a bunch of nonsense abortion bills and other things while ignoring this. Typical of Republicans, let's ignore the biggest economic development project in the history of the state then campaign on how "great" they are to the economy.

"Labeled Project Ocean, the proposal targets 588 acres inside MAIP in Pryor. If OK’d, the TIF would last a maximum of 12 years, creating up to 6,000 new direct jobs, 1,200 indirect jobs, 16,000 new housing units and a population increase of 18,000 within a 45-minute commute of the park, according to the project plan." They are estimating the TIF to be worth around $300 million.

^ Some of those projections seem low to me like the population. If they expect that to create 16,000 new housing units then that would be around 35,000 population based on average household sizes in this area. If you combine this with Canoo and what's likely to be other suppliers or other companies interested just because Panasonic felt it was a good enough location, you could easily see 60,000-75,000 new people settle in that area in the next 7-10 years.

Panasonic's North American HQ is in New Jersey, I wonder if we'd be able to entice them to relocate that office to Tulsa - wonder if that might have been why TAEO & Tulsa Chamber were there. Just hopeful thinking on that. Not even sure how big their North America HQ office is employee wise. 


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on April 19, 2022, 10:06:21 am
Glad to hear that^. I would be livid if the Legislature was a holdup on this project.

16,000 housing units is absolutely insane. Could be the biggest shot in the Tulsa Metro's arm in 80 years. Let's get crazy and start planning some light rail out East from Tulsa Proper.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: DowntownDan on April 19, 2022, 01:02:32 pm
I seriously hate this corporate welfare crap, but I guess it's necessary, especially in this part of the country.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on April 19, 2022, 09:04:50 pm
I seriously hate this corporate welfare crap, but I guess it's necessary, especially in this part of the country.

I'm not either, but it's a game we have to play if we want to land anything major. They aren't proposing anything different than what Texas, Kansas, etc. are all doing around us so it's either match it or be left in the dust. Lesser of two evils to me at least is match it and take the jobs and population growth because we are at an inflection point particularly with energy in the US and we don't have a lot of time to play around with trying to diversify our economy away from non-renewals energy. So this is an important step forward for the Tulsa MSA just like getting American Airlines was decades ago for building up an aerospace sector here.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Red Arrow on April 19, 2022, 09:42:56 pm
Let's get crazy and start planning some light rail out East from Tulsa Proper.

Let's at least get the ROW while the cost is merely outrageous, not yet stupid crazy.



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on April 20, 2022, 07:27:59 am
I'm not either, but it's a game we have to play if we want to land anything major. They aren't proposing anything different than what Texas, Kansas, etc. are all doing around us so it's either match it or be left in the dust. Lesser of two evils to me at least is match it and take the jobs and population growth because we are at an inflection point particularly with energy in the US and we don't have a lot of time to play around with trying to diversify our economy away from non-renewals energy. So this is an important step forward for the Tulsa MSA just like getting American Airlines was decades ago for building up an aerospace sector here.

It'd be nice if they would have passed a matching bill with similar funding and tax breaks to help small business development.


Oh who am I kidding!  :P


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on April 20, 2022, 08:12:09 am
https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/watch-now-house-oks-up-to-698m-economic-incentive-package/article_58a78530-c000-11ec-9dbc-0f0042d50fc1.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

House OKs up to $698M economic incentive package

Really sounds like there are multiple companies in the mix here....

"The remaining $85 million would be available to an unnamed second, “separate establishment,” referred to as “Player 2” in explanations of the program. Player 2 would have to invest $500 million to be eligible."


Some good quotes from legislatures: “Every other commercial on the Super Bowl was an electric vehicle commercial,” he continued. “Whether you support electric vehicles, whether you oppose electric vehicles, whatever your stance is on that, it doesn’t matter. That’s where the industry is going. … The electric vehicle industry is growing, and we have a chance to be at the front and center.”

Also some not so good ones: "Rep. Wendi Stearman, R-Collinsville, answered promises of jobs, growth and economic diversification by saying, “I don’t want Oklahoma to change, and the majority of my constituents do not want Oklahoma to change.”"  ::)


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on April 20, 2022, 09:00:41 am
https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/watch-now-house-oks-up-to-698m-economic-incentive-package/article_58a78530-c000-11ec-9dbc-0f0042d50fc1.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

House OKs up to $698M economic incentive package

Really sounds like there are multiple companies in the mix here....

"The remaining $85 million would be available to an unnamed second, “separate establishment,” referred to as “Player 2” in explanations of the program. Player 2 would have to invest $500 million to be eligible."


Some good quotes from legislatures: “Every other commercial on the Super Bowl was an electric vehicle commercial,” he continued. “Whether you support electric vehicles, whether you oppose electric vehicles, whatever your stance is on that, it doesn’t matter. That’s where the industry is going. … The electric vehicle industry is growing, and we have a chance to be at the front and center.”

Also some not so good ones: "Rep. Wendi Stearman, R-Collinsville, answered promises of jobs, growth and economic diversification by saying, “I don’t want Oklahoma to change, and the majority of my constituents do not want Oklahoma to change.”"  ::)

Oh - bless her heart.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Tulsan on April 20, 2022, 09:22:54 pm
https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/watch-now-house-oks-up-to-698m-economic-incentive-package/article_58a78530-c000-11ec-9dbc-0f0042d50fc1.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

House OKs up to $698M economic incentive package

Really sounds like there are multiple companies in the mix here....

"The remaining $85 million would be available to an unnamed second, “separate establishment,” referred to as “Player 2” in explanations of the program. Player 2 would have to invest $500 million to be eligible."


Its Canoo… additional incremental subsidies if they expand more than originally planned.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on April 21, 2022, 12:08:17 am
Its Canoo… additional incremental subsidies if they expand more than originally planned.

Idea too is that this will allow them to go after lots of others. Last I heard from the Commerce department is they have 100 active companies looking to expand or move operations to NE Oklahoma. I doubt Panasonic is the only one. We also missed out on a large Ford EV factory as well recently and were one of the top 3 sites for it primarily because of the Tesla campaign. I know it got a lot of ridicule from press and others but I think it really opened the door for us in a lot of other areas. I don't think many were under any impression we'd be able to pry Tesla away from Austin and were really a back up in case incentives there stalled or got blocked. That was really about an audition and press exposure to everyone else globally about what Tulsa is about.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on April 21, 2022, 12:10:56 am
https://www.fox23.com/news/oklahoma-kansas-state-governments-compete-court-mystery-fortune-500-company/4KEKUX6UBBCMHBMCKDBUEWHK2E/ (https://www.fox23.com/news/oklahoma-kansas-state-governments-compete-court-mystery-fortune-500-company/4KEKUX6UBBCMHBMCKDBUEWHK2E/)

Sounds like this is a done deal if everything passes. Apparently they've gone silent on Kansas so that's a pretty good indication we are the top site and Kansas is the back up in case something happens were the TIF or legislation fails.

______

"Kansas State Representative John Carmichael told FOX23 that while he did not support an incentive package in his state, the legislature passed one in hopes of landing the company.

“We passed a package valued at 1.3 billion dollars. We were told that we had to get that passed before March because the company was going to make its decision before March. We were also told we had to move fast because we wanted to get our proposal passed and signed by the governor before the Oklahoma legislature came back into session,” Carmichael said.

Since then Carmichael says they have been left waiting.

“Then we heard nothing, nothing, nothing,” Carmichael said.


Kisling says he is confident that if the senate passes the legislation in Oklahoma on Thursday the state would be one step closer to landing the unknown company.

“I think we will know pretty quickly,” Kisling said.

Kisling said Mayes County will also need to pass a TIF district. A vote on a proposal is set for next week in Mayes County."


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on April 21, 2022, 06:07:30 am
If I’m reading that right the KS proposal is for $1.3B and OK’s is $700M, that’s a big difference unless the TIF makes up the rest?


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Tulsan on April 21, 2022, 07:46:55 am
If I’m reading that right the KS proposal is for $1.3B and OK’s is $700M, that’s a big difference unless the TIF makes up the rest?

The Kansas proposal is just leverage. Kansas is the bridesmaid. We are the bride this time.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on April 21, 2022, 12:31:59 pm
https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/state-senate-oks-698m-economic-incentive-bill-to-lure-large-manufacturing-plant-to-state/article_9da6f91e-c199-11ec-8f72-9b9ee841fd9b.html

State Senate OK's $698M economic Incentive bill to lure large manufacturing plant to state

This includes everything Stitt was referring to in his press conference, correct?


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: DowntownDan on April 21, 2022, 01:12:59 pm
I probably haven't read enough but would these be good high paying jobs or middling assembly line jobs? It's one thing to give away your treasury for good jobs, it's another if its going to be more quasi-living wage jobs.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: swake on April 21, 2022, 01:29:35 pm
I probably haven't read enough but would these be good high paying jobs or middling assembly line jobs? It's one thing to give away your treasury for good jobs, it's another if its going to be more quasi-living wage jobs.

According to Zip Recruiter Panasonic jobs at Tesla's plant in Nevada pay $31k at the 25th percentile and $76k at the 75th percentile. So 1,000 jobs at or below $30k and a 1,000 jobs approaching six figures.

https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Jobs/Tesla-Panasonic-Gigafactory/-in-Sparks,NV

Not great, not bad, especially where the factory is going to be located. $31k for someone living in Tulsa would be hard, but not in Pryor, Claremore or Wagoner. And the high end jobs pay enough to get people to commute from Tulsa.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on April 21, 2022, 06:51:54 pm
According to Zip Recruiter Panasonic jobs at Tesla's plant in Nevada pay $31k at the 25th percentile and $76k at the 75th percentile. So 1,000 jobs at or below $30k and a 1,000 jobs approaching six figures.

https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Jobs/Tesla-Panasonic-Gigafactory/-in-Sparks,NV

Not great, not bad, especially where the factory is going to be located. $31k for someone living in Tulsa would be hard, but not in Pryor, Claremore or Wagoner. And the high end jobs pay enough to get people to commute from Tulsa.

$31k in Nevada is different than $31k in Oklahoma. Nevada has no state income tax. They have a slightly higher property tax than Tulsa County, but they benefit from tourism from Reno and Lake Tahoe. Sales tax in that area is 7.75%.

Washoe County property tax rates

https://www.washoecounty.gov/treas/files/2021-22%20Combined%20Rates.pdf (https://www.washoecounty.gov/treas/files/2021-22%20Combined%20Rates.pdf)

https://www.washoecounty.gov/treas/Tax_Rates.php (https://www.washoecounty.gov/treas/Tax_Rates.php)


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on April 21, 2022, 06:54:27 pm
How different is the assembly line worker pay for Panasonic vs Tesla?  Not counting the management and engineering positions.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on April 21, 2022, 07:03:06 pm
How different is the assembly line worker pay for Panasonic vs Tesla?  Not counting the management and engineering positions.

I'm curious how many assembly line workers are even needed in a battery factory. A lot of those factories are mainly robots and, as a bonus to save money, run in the dark since robots don't need to technically see what they're doing.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on April 21, 2022, 07:05:19 pm
Just curious, what type of batteries are Panasonic planning to build? LG just announced that they building the first in the US cylindrical Lithium batteries.

https://www.azfamily.com/2022/03/27/lg-energy-build-battery-plant-queen-creek/ (https://www.azfamily.com/2022/03/27/lg-energy-build-battery-plant-queen-creek/)

Cylindrical vs. Prismatic batteries

https://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/cylindrical-vs-prismatic-cells.php (https://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/cylindrical-vs-prismatic-cells.php)

And citizens opposed to the project

https://www.azfamily.com/2022/04/12/300-acres-queen-creek-could-be-new-site-an-lg-battery-plant/ (https://www.azfamily.com/2022/04/12/300-acres-queen-creek-could-be-new-site-an-lg-battery-plant/)


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Tulsan on April 21, 2022, 08:14:17 pm
Just curious, what type of batteries are Panasonic planning to build? LG just announced that they building the first in the US cylindrical Lithium batteries.

It will be 4680 cylinder cells produced for Tesla.

https://insideevs.com/news/573347/tesla-4680-battery-panasonic-insight/


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 22, 2022, 09:39:17 am
So will this end up being another toxic wasteland like Picher, OK?   Will there be a bond to ensure cleanup aftwards.... Lol...I make myself laugh...!!



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on April 22, 2022, 10:33:00 am
So will this end up being another toxic wasteland like Picher, OK?   Will there be a bond to ensure cleanup aftwards.... Lol...I make myself laugh...!!



What manufacturing isn't toxic? Is it going to be any more toxic than oil & gas drilling and refining? Doubtful.

There's a far bigger toxic wasteland along the west bank of the Arkansas River with the two giant refineries that pollutes and endangers far more people than this factory will. 


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on April 22, 2022, 10:35:37 am
If I’m reading that right the KS proposal is for $1.3B and OK’s is $700M, that’s a big difference unless the TIF makes up the rest?

I believe the TIF is valued somewhere around $400 million in terms of property tax rebates over the next 12 years so the total "package" of tax credits and rebates from state & local in OK is around $1.1 Billion


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Laramie on April 22, 2022, 12:43:45 pm

Oklahoma and Kansas state governments compete to court a mystery fortune 500 company:


https://www.fox23.com/news/oklahoma-kansas-state-governments-compete-court-mystery-fortune-500-company/4KEKUX6UBBCMHBMCKDBUEWHK2E/ (https://www.fox23.com/news/oklahoma-kansas-state-governments-compete-court-mystery-fortune-500-company/4KEKUX6UBBCMHBMCKDBUEWHK2E/)




Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Vision 2025 on April 25, 2022, 11:51:35 am
I believe the TIF is valued somewhere around $400 million in terms of property tax rebates over the next 12 years so the total "package" of tax credits and rebates from state & local in OK is around $1.1 Billion
Wonder if the TIF also includes all or a portion of the local sales tax?


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: swake on April 25, 2022, 12:51:27 pm
Wonder if the TIF also includes all or a portion of the local sales tax?

Would a battery factory generate much sales tax? I wouldn't think so, but could be wrong.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 25, 2022, 02:15:29 pm
What manufacturing isn't toxic? Is it going to be any more toxic than oil & gas drilling and refining? Doubtful.

There's a far bigger toxic wasteland along the west bank of the Arkansas River with the two giant refineries that pollutes and endangers far more people than this factory will. 


And oil/gas doesn't get cleaned up either.  We have tens of thousands of wells here that OERB says they are gonna fix.  There is a 10 year waiting list.  And has been a 10 year waiting list since I first signed onto it in 1994.

"Whatabout-ism" example number 376....so since we have several, it's no big deal to get some more....


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Vision 2025 on April 25, 2022, 04:04:44 pm
Would a battery factory generate much sales tax? I wouldn't think so, but could be wrong.
It would on construction of the facility.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on April 25, 2022, 09:09:27 pm
It would on construction of the facility.

I believe the sales taxes are recorded based on where the contractor/sub is purchasing materials so there would not be much if any sales tax related to construction within the TIF boundary. I don't know if sales tax is recorded on things like battery shipments if they are a supplier versus selling stuff on the open market, frankly I haven't really seen a TIF related to manufacturing/industrial like this I've only really reviewed ones on the commercial side. It's an interesting question because if say Tesla has to pay sales tax on every battery purchased from Panasonic that'd potentially be a lot of revenue coming in to state, county, and city beyond ad valorem.

From what I've seen so far this TIF is 100% based on the ad valorem only given the size of the plant and capital investment, there isn't a need to go beyond that here.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on April 25, 2022, 09:25:05 pm

And oil/gas doesn't get cleaned up either.  We have tens of thousands of wells here that OERB says they are gonna fix.  There is a 10 year waiting list.  And has been a 10 year waiting list since I first signed onto it in 1994.

"Whatabout-ism" example number 376....so since we have several, it's no big deal to get some more....


It's not a whatabout-ism because I don't disagree with you on the pollution that could come from this plant and every other battery and semiconductor plant being proposed to be built in the US - it's possible to point out and be objective about both sides of this. What's your solution? Just stay with what we have now? That's a horrific choice for our environment.

It's the world we live in unfortunately, corporations get to pollute and profit off it and as soon as one ever gets caught they just file for bankruptcy, execs take bonuses/profits and move on to the next one. It's also the downside of a domestic supply chain - while corps had moved off shore because it was cheaper they also took many of the facilities that cause harm to our environment to other countries but we all saw and are seeing the effects of not having any domestic supply chain capabilities. We need to find a balance and can't fully rely on China, India, etc. because you never know what is around the corner like COVID.

We also can't ignore the blatant harm that is being inflicted on our communities now and for decades past from refineries, drilling, etc. It is possible that a few concentrated battery plants, even though not 'clean', could overall have far less impact on the overall US environment than petroleum based transportation currently does now.

It would allow us in a decade or two to possibly shut down and clean up sites like the westbank refineries on the Arkansas. Imagine if we could repurpose those two sites into massive parkland/recreation areas (probably will never be able to be developed but could be remediated enough to become parkland). If that's the trade off - I'd probably say it's worth it. This site is in the middle of an industrial park without any remotely close residential dwellings - how many refineries in the US can say the same? There are a lot of them smack in the middle of very dense residential areas (Tulsa for example and look at the LA refineries in California along the beaches, Baton Rouge, etc.)

Don't act like it's only an Oklahoma problem either, that somehow we're backwards because we let people build things that will pollute our environment - it happens in every state no matter how 'great/wonderful/supposedly more progressive than we are'... liberals and conservative states are the same in that they never hold corporations responsible for harm because they want the $$$ to stay in power. Some just pretend to care slightly more than the other.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Vision 2025 on April 26, 2022, 11:21:17 am
I believe the sales taxes are recorded based on where the contractor/sub is purchasing materials so there would not be much if any sales tax related to construction within the TIF boundary. I don't know if sales tax is recorded on things like battery shipments if they are a supplier versus selling stuff on the open market, frankly I haven't really seen a TIF related to manufacturing/industrial like this I've only really reviewed ones on the commercial side. It's an interesting question because if say Tesla has to pay sales tax on every battery purchased from Panasonic that'd potentially be a lot of revenue coming in to state, county, and city beyond ad valorem.

From what I've seen so far this TIF is 100% based on the ad valorem only given the size of the plant and capital investment, there isn't a need to go beyond that here.
Sales Tax in Oklahoma is point of delivery, been that way for decades.  Also for property taxes for manufacturing facilities are automatically abated for the first five years after completion in Oklahoma.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on April 26, 2022, 02:13:20 pm
Sales Tax in Oklahoma is point of delivery, been that way for decades.  Also for property taxes for manufacturing facilities are automatically abated for the first five years after completion in Oklahoma.

Maybe I just wasn't clear on what I meant is that delivery on construction materials doesn't always mean at the specific construction site. It depends on what contractors/subs are being used and how materials are being sourced. Point of delivery for many things construction related typically happens through a subcontractor and the sub is then responsible for getting the materials to the site, installed, etc. Especially for large projects the materials are usually 'delivered' where they are made and then the contract/sub is responsible for getting it to the site and installed. So the sales tax is recorded at that location not at the site the material is being installed. It's a big game of depends on where the technicality of 'delivery' is, my guess is for a project of this scope and size most of the 'delivery' locations where sales taxes are being recorded and paid is not within the boundaries of this TIF. Not any different than if a framer went to M&M lumber, bought lumber there in Tulsa, and built the house in Broken Arrow. The sales tax was paid and recorded in Tulsa, M&M lumber delivered the product at the warehouse - now if they ship the materials themselves directly to a site that's a different question. So really it's a big question of depends and they likely aren't going to take any of that into consideration to value a TIF. Regardless, this TIF is being calculated off the ad valorem taxes anyways, which given the value of the project is pretty significant and far less of a guessing game than sales taxes are - typically if there's any bonding related to projects sales taxes is far more speculative than ad valorem taxes is the 'risk' profile of a bond. Which from what I've read, it sounds like this isn't being bonded either and is a rebate versus upfront payment in the TIF portion of these incentives.   


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Vision 2025 on April 27, 2022, 09:37:36 am
They won't be shopping at Lowe's, point of delivery will be the site for the much of the materials and remote (out of State) built assemblies delivered to the site are subject to USE Tax and together these are potentially a significant revenue stream which is why I asked.

Advance bond funding of a TIF can be challenging as there is no incremental tax increase (the revenue stream) until actual physical work is being done on the site and then the increment is only calculated annually (beginning at the next assessment cycle following creation of the TIF) during each years assessment cycle.  Advance funding takes a lot of disclosure by the entity benefitting, but they can qualify for further savings by utilizing public issued (conduit debt) tax exempt bonds which reduces the interested rate and if done correctly transfers no risk to the entity.   

Regardless, TIF's are a great funding tool, no construction = no incremental increase in the property value and no risk to the public should it not materialize.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 27, 2022, 12:49:52 pm
It's not a whatabout-ism because I don't disagree with you on the pollution that could come from this plant and every other battery and semiconductor plant being proposed to be built in the US - it's possible to point out and be objective about both sides of this. What's your solution? Just stay with what we have now? That's a horrific choice for our environment.

It's the world we live in unfortunately, corporations get to pollute and profit off it and as soon as one ever gets caught they just file for bankruptcy, execs take bonuses/profits and move on to the next one. It's also the downside of a domestic supply chain - while corps had moved off shore because it was cheaper they also took many of the facilities that cause harm to our environment to other countries but we all saw and are seeing the effects of not having any domestic supply chain capabilities. We need to find a balance and can't fully rely on China, India, etc. because you never know what is around the corner like COVID.

We also can't ignore the blatant harm that is being inflicted on our communities now and for decades past from refineries, drilling, etc. It is possible that a few concentrated battery plants, even though not 'clean', could overall have far less impact on the overall US environment than petroleum based transportation currently does now.

It would allow us in a decade or two to possibly shut down and clean up sites like the westbank refineries on the Arkansas. Imagine if we could repurpose those two sites into massive parkland/recreation areas (probably will never be able to be developed but could be remediated enough to become parkland). If that's the trade off - I'd probably say it's worth it. This site is in the middle of an industrial park without any remotely close residential dwellings - how many refineries in the US can say the same? There are a lot of them smack in the middle of very dense residential areas (Tulsa for example and look at the LA refineries in California along the beaches, Baton Rouge, etc.)

Don't act like it's only an Oklahoma problem either, that somehow we're backwards because we let people build things that will pollute our environment - it happens in every state no matter how 'great/wonderful/supposedly more progressive than we are'... liberals and conservative states are the same in that they never hold corporations responsible for harm because they want the $$$ to stay in power. Some just pretend to care slightly more than the other.


I agree completely and absolutely that we should first, develop what we can out of this.  And second, make sure there are bonds or deposits, or something that assures the ability to clean up the mess when they are done here and bail out.

I don't think anything will come of it just because of the ongoing national embarrassment that the Republicans in office bring to the state.  Every.  Single.  Day.!!

Specifically this week, the MAGA-ott who is calling to put Fauci in front of a firing squad.

https://news.yahoo.com/republican-oklahoma-candidate-says-try-155731253.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall




Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Red Arrow on April 27, 2022, 01:26:31 pm
Specifically this week, the MAGA-ott who is calling to put Fauci in front of a firing squad.

That kind of behavior is embarrassing.



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 27, 2022, 06:45:39 pm
That kind of behavior is embarrassing.




Everything we have come to expect from Putin and more!



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on April 30, 2022, 02:14:34 pm
TIF was approved. Petition has been started and will require signatures of 10% of Mayes County registered voters to sign which would take the issue to voters in November to approve the TIF. Likelihood of this petition getting that many signatures is pretty slim. The TIF hearings were fairly full, but wasn't 100% people against it and would expect that if something needs that many signatures there would have needed to be a significant outpouring of negativity and organization for that to be a real challenge.

I do wonder if the petition will cause Panasonic any delay in announcing its decision or if they will wait until after the deadline for signature submittals to make it public.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on April 30, 2022, 02:31:26 pm
Ugh... who created the petition?


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 04, 2022, 11:00:29 am
What corporations would move to Oklahoma when we pass laws like this?

OS Title 63 Section 1-745.39

K. Notwithstanding any other law, a civil action under this
section shall not be brought:

4. By a person who impregnated a woman seeking an abortion
through an act of rape, sexual assault, incest, or any other act
prohibited by state law.
http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2021-22%20ENR/SB/SB1503%20ENR.PDF

Even Amazon is paying employees to leave Oklahoma to seek medical procedures:
https://www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/amazon-reimburse-us-employees-who-travel-treatments-including-abortions-2022-05-02/



While I agree that these laws are not a good thing - we have got to stop acting like Oklahoma is the ONLY state acting ridiculous. Florida and Texas are putting us to shame in this regard (that's not a good thing either) and they are attracting companies left and right. Corporate America gives no sh**s about stuff like this. If the location saves them money and makes execs richer that's all they care about. There will be fake outrage and performative measures like what Amazon is doing but at the end of the day they do not care one bit about stuff like this. They could end stuff like this overnight if they wanted to but Republicans give them tax breaks. Toyota is back to funding the insurrections again along with most other major corporate donors. THEY DO NOT CARE.

The difference between Texas and Oklahoma is Texas actually taxes oil & gas and dedicated it to university funding which built up A&M and UT, etc. and they have a far better pipeline of educated professionals. If Oklahoma invested in OU and OSU the same way we'd be running circles around most states.

The only thing I foresee this damaging is something like Tulsa Remote, but when Texas, Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, Arizona, Nevada, North Carolina, etc. all have the same problems I just don't see it stopping economic development projects in every state. If Panasonic wanted to build their plant in say Washington or California none of those employees could afford to live there, that's far more damaging to recruiting then these backwards laws. People who have relocated here already for things like Tulsa Remote understand what they are getting into, same with people who move to Austin. You're in a Red State in a blue/purple bubble. When Dems and Independents don't vote and move away they are just enabling the crazies (far right). If you look at Oklahoma's voter registration if Dems and Independents showed up to vote our states would be split close to 50/50 and most districts would be in play, but NO ONE VOTES they just want to complain about what the far right does because that's far easier then to actually try to change anything. Oklahoma's demographics are really not that far off from places like North Carolina/Virginia but the middle and left don't vote here - for whatever reason and it's maddening.


_____

Side note: Google is announcing another major expansion of the Pryor data center facility today. 


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on May 05, 2022, 05:33:22 am
While I agree that these laws are not a good thing - we have got to stop acting like Oklahoma is the ONLY state acting ridiculous. Florida and Texas are putting us to shame in this regard (that's not a good thing either) and they are attracting companies left and right. Corporate America gives no sh**s about stuff like this. If the location saves them money and makes execs richer that's all they care about. There will be fake outrage and performative measures like what Amazon is doing but at the end of the day they do not care one bit about stuff like this. They could end stuff like this overnight if they wanted to but Republicans give them tax breaks. Toyota is back to funding the insurrections again along with most other major corporate donors. THEY DO NOT CARE.

The difference between Texas and Oklahoma is Texas actually taxes oil & gas and dedicated it to university funding which built up A&M and UT, etc. and they have a far better pipeline of educated professionals. If Oklahoma invested in OU and OSU the same way we'd be running circles around most states.

The only thing I foresee this damaging is something like Tulsa Remote, but when Texas, Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, Arizona, Nevada, North Carolina, etc. all have the same problems I just don't see it stopping economic development projects in every state. If Panasonic wanted to build their plant in say Washington or California none of those employees could afford to live there, that's far more damaging to recruiting then these backwards laws. People who have relocated here already for things like Tulsa Remote understand what they are getting into, same with people who move to Austin. You're in a Red State in a blue/purple bubble. When Dems and Independents don't vote and move away they are just enabling the crazies (far right). If you look at Oklahoma's voter registration if Dems and Independents showed up to vote our states would be split close to 50/50 and most districts would be in play, but NO ONE VOTES they just want to complain about what the far right does because that's far easier then to actually try to change anything. Oklahoma's demographics are really not that far off from places like North Carolina/Virginia but the middle and left don't vote here - for whatever reason and it's maddening.


_____

Side note: Google is announcing another major expansion of the Pryor data center facility today. 

Yep to everything you wrote. However since 70% of the country is in favor of women's rights, since that's ultimately what the abortion debate is about, businesses do listen. Getting tax breaks is one thing but in the end the customers are the important thing. People keep misunderstanding how a capitalist society works - it's all about the money. Dems keep forgetting that. You vote with your money. Stop shopping at places that support or even encourage these un-American ideals. I haven't shopped at Wal-Mart for literally 25 years. I haven't ate at Chick-fil-A in the same time period (mainly bc the food is crap but I maintained it due to their opposition to gay rights). I stopped going to Merritt's Bakery when they refused to do wedding cakes for gay marriages (still haven't found where that's at in the Bible). I would never buy a Toyota for a whole stack of reasons and their lack of a spine just adds to it. I won't deal with any a$$hat business that runs Trump stickers on their trucks. Won't touch Mullin plumbing. Absolutely don't go to Jimmy Johns since apparently hunting endangered animals is how their owner spends his money - what a twat. Honestly any business who advertises their politics in either direction confuses me - that's terrible business. My pennies may not sway any of these places by themselves but I've gotten most of my friends to do the same once I tell them my reasons. And let the businesses know.

Of course I also think the whole insurrection and everything else Republicans have done lately is just a dead cat bounce before they lose all power.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 05, 2022, 07:54:58 am
While I agree that these laws are not a good thing - we have got to stop acting like Oklahoma is the ONLY state acting ridiculous. Florida and Texas are putting us to shame in this regard (that's not a good thing either) and they are attracting companies left and right. Corporate America gives no sh**s about stuff like this. If the location saves them money and makes execs richer that's all they care about. There will be fake outrage and performative measures like what Amazon is doing but at the end of the day they do not care one bit about stuff like this. They could end stuff like this overnight if they wanted to but Republicans give them tax breaks. Toyota is back to funding the insurrections again along with most other major corporate donors. THEY DO NOT CARE.

The difference between Texas and Oklahoma is Texas actually taxes oil & gas and dedicated it to university funding which built up A&M and UT, etc. and they have a far better pipeline of educated professionals. If Oklahoma invested in OU and OSU the same way we'd be running circles around most states.

The only thing I foresee this damaging is something like Tulsa Remote, but when Texas, Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, Arizona, Nevada, North Carolina, etc. all have the same problems I just don't see it stopping economic development projects in every state. If Panasonic wanted to build their plant in say Washington or California none of those employees could afford to live there, that's far more damaging to recruiting then these backwards laws. People who have relocated here already for things like Tulsa Remote understand what they are getting into, same with people who move to Austin. You're in a Red State in a blue/purple bubble. When Dems and Independents don't vote and move away they are just enabling the crazies (far right). If you look at Oklahoma's voter registration if Dems and Independents showed up to vote our states would be split close to 50/50 and most districts would be in play, but NO ONE VOTES they just want to complain about what the far right does because that's far easier then to actually try to change anything. Oklahoma's demographics are really not that far off from places like North Carolina/Virginia but the middle and left don't vote here - for whatever reason and it's maddening.


_____

Side note: Google is announcing another major expansion of the Pryor data center facility today. 


Truth!


But there are tiny little rays of hope...this guy - Trae Crowder - 'gets it'.  And talks about it here.  Caution;  rough edges!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu5znlyX9uY








Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Jeff P on May 05, 2022, 09:27:26 am
If you look at Oklahoma's voter registration if Dems and Independents showed up to vote our states would be split close to 50/50 and most districts would be in play, but NO ONE VOTES they just want to complain about what the far right does because that's far easier then to actually try to change anything. Oklahoma's demographics are really not that far off from places like North Carolina/Virginia but the middle and left don't vote here - for whatever reason and it's maddening.

This is not an entirely fair criticism, IMO.

Republicans have a massive advantage state-wide, with 51% of all registered voters, while Democrats have 31%.

Independents and Libertarian make up another 17%, but even if 100% of them voted Democrat (a big stretch) Republicans would still have the advantage.

Furthermore, that is just looking at state-wide statistics. In the rural areas that advantage is much more pronounced with Republicans making up 70-80% of registered voters in many areas. These are the areas that are electing the same crazy lawmakers unopposed over and over again.

This is the same thing that happens in places you noted like Texas, Florida, North Carolina, etc.  The cities may be purple or even blue, but the state legislatures are massively over-represented by rural areas that vote solidly red.

It's a microcosm of the country as a whole in that regard, where "Land" very often gets more representation than actual people.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 05, 2022, 03:17:16 pm
This is not an entirely fair criticism, IMO.

Republicans have a massive advantage state-wide, with 51% of all registered voters, while Democrats have 31%.

Independents and Libertarian make up another 17%, but even if 100% of them voted Democrat (a big stretch) Republicans would still have the advantage.

Furthermore, that is just looking at state-wide statistics. In the rural areas that advantage is much more pronounced with Republicans making up 70-80% of registered voters in many areas. These are the areas that are electing the same crazy lawmakers unopposed over and over again.

This is the same thing that happens in places you noted like Texas, Florida, North Carolina, etc.  The cities may be purple or even blue, but the state legislatures are massively over-represented by rural areas that vote solidly red.

It's a microcosm of the country as a whole in that regard, where "Land" very often gets more representation than actual people.

You're right for sure in that there is a big gap right now, but look at the eligible population of voters to registered voters as well. The Republican party is doing a great job at getting new voters to register here, Democrats that is non existent and more voters for the party are letting registrations end because they don't vote and are being removed. Brad Henry was about the last moment in time the state party was even remotely on it's game and has been in shambles since and I don't understand how they are so unorganized - part of it could be the national party has given up on states like Oklahoma and I largely blame them for many of the issues too because they've abandoned large swaths of the country.

Most Independents vote Democrat in Oklahoma, most Independents are former Republicans that can't stand the party and won't vote for them but it's a taboo thing in Oklahoma that a large majority of moderates just will never call themselves a Democrat, but they will vote for them and don't like how extreme the Republican party in the state has gotten. In that sense it reminds me a lot of New Mexico as well, they have a big Independent/Libertarian voter population and one of the few states that has had a none Dem/Rep Governor recently.

Unlike Texas and other red states/blue cities, in Oklahoma you don't see the suburban areas up in contested elections often and there's far more moderates in Broken Arrow, Jenks, etc. then people think especially given the legislatures that are being elected in those areas. The Republican party has done a great job at convincing people that no one stands a chance against them and then I've see so many friends in these areas who are registered Republicans not even go vote for the more moderate candidate because they don't think that candidate even has a chance in a Republican primary. So then we get stuck with a large portion of 'extreme' politicians even in suburban areas that has cause are legislature to become even more imbalanced towards the far right versus closer to the center. They've convinced Democrats to not vote and they've now gotten to the point they've even convinced the moderates in their own party to not vote. It's really bizarre.

Getting more Independents/Libertarians out to vote and getting Democrats to actually register and vote and you could flip just about every Republican district that is in the Tulsa & OKC suburban areas. Granted that would probably be countered to an extent with even more gerrymandering.

If you look at the voter turn out too, it's really not that great even for Republicans here... we have one of the lowest voter turnout percentages in the nation as a state. In most races, the total votes for Republicans are below the total number of Democrats registered to vote (excluding Independents, etc.) in whatever race/district, so I do blame Democrat voters for not turning out because if they could figure out a way to get people to the polls you'd be surprised at how close races would get in more populated area and frankly in most of eastern Oklahoma. Western Oklahoma the percentages are just too wide but there are many areas in the states that are uncompetitive now that shouldn't be if voter turnout was better and the Democratic party did a better job at getting people registered to vote and show up. The state wide party is a complete sh** show along with the Tulsa County party, etc. so until they can get some leadership and actual funding I don't see things changing and it's sad. It makes me angry at the national party for abandoning states like Oklahoma, but the national party isn't a big fan of 'moderates' so they would rather focus on California, NY, etc. but they so unbelievable short sighted they don't see how getting a few dozen moderates into national House of Rep seats and even 3-4 more moderate senators would make it a lot easier to get more progressive legislation through in higher majorities. But no, they'd rather shoot themselves in the foot by turning their back on areas they deem as unworthy. That's why it irritates me with liberals who live here that bash Oklahoma like we're some reject state - we're not worse than Texas, Florida, etc. we've just largely decided to give up on ourselves.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Red Arrow on May 06, 2022, 05:36:25 pm
When our family moved to OK from PA in 1971, OK frequently voted Republican for President but a Republican couldn't get elected as a dog catcher in anything local.

What happened?  I didn't like Jim Jones, Mike Synar..... but I don't like much of the current Republican wackos either.  If the Democrats could put up someone more moderate than left-wing wacko, they could get a foothold again. I'd still vote moderate Republican over moderate Democrat but I will vote moderate Democrat over wacko right wing religious zealot Republican.  I try to vote against anyone whose primary qualification for office is their religious views.

Edit: grammar correction.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on May 07, 2022, 07:18:29 am
When our family moved to OK from PA in 1971, OK frequently voted Republican for President but a Republican couldn't get elected as a dog catcher in anything local.

What happened?  I didn't like Jim Jones, Mike Synar..... but I don't like much of the current Republican wackos either.  If the Democrats could put up someone more moderate than left-wing wacko, they could get a foothold again. I'd still vote moderate Republican over moderate Democrat but I will vote moderate Democrat over wacko right wing religious zealot Republican.  I try to vote against anyone whose primary qualification for office is their religious views.

Edit: grammar correction.


Dems do need to learn to put up candidates that are appropriate for the area even if that person isn't really in lock-step with the national platforms. With Oklahoma and some other states I'm not sure what to do however - religion used to be something personal and the majority of Okies didn't wear it on their sleeves or define themselves by it but Christian Nationalism has completely taken over the right now. I'm not really seeing any Republicans that isn't a wacko right wing religious zealot, or at least who acts like they are to get votes and grift in general.

Also - the last time Oklahoma voted Democrat for President was Johnson and that was really only because Kennedy got assassinated. Before that it was Truman. All quite ironic since OK seriously benefited from the WPA programs of the Dems.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Jeff P on May 07, 2022, 07:53:01 am
When our family moved to OK from PA in 1971, OK frequently voted Republican for President but a Republican couldn't get elected as a dog catcher in anything local.

What happened?  

The same thing that happened in every Southern state. The old Southern Dixicrats essentially became Republican after the Civil Right act. It just took a while for the party to fully and officially turn over so got a lot of leftover conservative Southern Democrats getting elected in the south in the 70s and 80s before Newt's "revolution" in the 90s and the rise of talk radio and Fox News, which created "litmus tests" for conservative candidates and one of them was "must be Republican."


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 08, 2022, 03:52:38 pm
When our family moved to OK from PA in 1971, OK frequently voted Republican for President but a Republican couldn't get elected as a dog catcher in anything local.

What happened?  I didn't like Jim Jones, Mike Synar..... but I don't like much of the current Republican wackos either.  If the Democrats could put up someone more moderate than left-wing wacko, they could get a foothold again. I'd still vote moderate Republican over moderate Democrat but I will vote moderate Democrat over wacko right wing religious zealot Republican.  I try to vote against anyone whose primary qualification for office is their religious views.

Edit: grammar correction.



Dem's have pretty much lost their ever-loving minds!   For the most part, they are still more about personal rights and Constitutional type privileges - WAY more than the Republicontins - but 2nd Amendment... Really??   That is one particular kook-aid that they need to get smart about!   Gun control in this country has always, at least since the beginning, about keeping Black people unarmed.  Now they want to expand that to everyone.  They REALLY need to pull their heads out on that.  It's the 2nd one - it was known at that time to be THAT important to take the place right behind the 1st one!!







Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: D-TownTulsan on May 10, 2022, 07:37:49 am
Lol what happened to this thread


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on May 10, 2022, 08:28:27 am
Anyone know what Panasonic's timeline for announcing their battery plant project?


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on May 10, 2022, 08:30:04 am
Lol what happened to this thread

We've been drinking. Don't judge us!  ;D


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 10, 2022, 09:10:30 am
Lol what happened to this thread



I thought the connection would be obvious....we, as Okies can't concentrate clearly to do the best job capable of when worried about taking away our most treasured privileges!   Own and bear arms...  so the plant can't possibly be a success when this is hovering over us!


There.  Connected!



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: buffalodan on May 10, 2022, 03:56:26 pm
https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/10/23065974/canoo-ev-startup-earnings-q1-2022-cash-net-loss

I assume they just declare bankruptcy, reorganize, and offload a bunch of debt? I'm glad they did an SPAC for this.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on May 10, 2022, 04:59:42 pm
https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/10/23065974/canoo-ev-startup-earnings-q1-2022-cash-net-loss

I assume they just declare bankruptcy, reorganize, and offload a bunch of debt? I'm glad they did an SPAC for this.

Oh man - running out of money! If only someone had seen this coming! Wait - I did on page 2 of this thread in June of 2021.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Laramie on May 11, 2022, 10:41:36 am
This is not looking good:

                         (https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/2Cta2nmXBdGg.ZyYPEkPtQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTQyMDtoPTIwOTtjZj13ZWJw/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/Hfe2mzkbuPPhSjXgZHvwCw--~B/aD0xNDk7dz0zMDA7YXBwaWQ9eXRhY2h5b24-/https://media.zenfs.com/en/koki_cox_articles_453/321ccc01f89578e1cb44c62e8c84bb9d)

Canoo CEO warns company could go out business before a single car is made in Pryor:  https://news.yahoo.com/canoo-ceo-warns-company-could-155946217.html (https://news.yahoo.com/canoo-ceo-warns-company-could-155946217.html)




Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Jake on May 11, 2022, 10:51:02 am
If the state somehow botches the Panasonic factory...


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 11, 2022, 11:02:03 am
Oh man - running out of money! If only someone had seen this coming! Wait - I did on page 2 of this thread in June of 2021.

My only hope for the long-term survival of Canoo came when I found out GKFF became investors. Granted Solyndra was a disaster for them and this could be that 2.0, but I have a feeling Canoo will probably file bankruptcy and reorganize and GKFF and other investors will end up taking over and with far less bad debt. Who knows though.

If the state somehow botches the Panasonic factory...

Well Stitt and the other Republicans were too busy passing a bunch of ridiculous laws instead of getting the economic package passed. Kansas did it first thing they could and we kicked the can down the road until they got pissed off.

My guess is they aren't going to make a public announcement until after the deadline for the TIF petition filing deadline. I doubt it will be successful but they are probably not wanting to antagonize or add fuel to the fire. They can still be working on plans and moving forward without the public announcement. If they were going to pick Kansas we would have heard an announcement by now.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: shavethewhales on May 11, 2022, 12:23:43 pm
This is not looking good:

                         (https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/2Cta2nmXBdGg.ZyYPEkPtQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTQyMDtoPTIwOTtjZj13ZWJw/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/Hfe2mzkbuPPhSjXgZHvwCw--~B/aD0xNDk7dz0zMDA7YXBwaWQ9eXRhY2h5b24-/https://media.zenfs.com/en/koki_cox_articles_453/321ccc01f89578e1cb44c62e8c84bb9d)

Canoo CEO warns company could go out business before a single car is made in Pryor:  https://news.yahoo.com/canoo-ceo-warns-company-could-155946217.html (https://news.yahoo.com/canoo-ceo-warns-company-could-155946217.html)


This is a misunderstanding of how financial statements work. Canoo has always burned cash and has never generated revenue to my knowledge, and certainly has never posted a profit. Therefore, they rely on their ability to acquire debt and/or issue equity to fund their continued operations. Any company operating thusly is pretty much required to have those kind of statements in their financial statements. There's always the possibility that the market turns sour (like what is happening now) and the ability of these fledgling companies to keep getting money until they can actually start making revenue will dry up.

That being said, Canoo is a long ways away from meaningful production, and they are burning cash quickly while they get off the ground. They have a bad strategy and an arguably unappealing product. To make things worse, they keep losing senior people and the CEO's compensation is suspect. If they were JUST burning money in pursuit of their goals I wouldn't be worried, because that is typical with this stage of a massive start-up. It's the loss of senior people and failure to come up with an appealing design that really spells trouble.

I hope it somehow works out, but with the markets turning ugly they have a high chance of getting flushed. Back in 2019 or so they could have still made it just because the bull market made getting funding easy.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: DowntownDan on May 11, 2022, 01:20:56 pm
This is a misunderstanding of how financial statements work. Canoo has always burned cash and has never generated revenue to my knowledge, and certainly has never posted a profit. Therefore, they rely on their ability to acquire debt and/or issue equity to fund their continued operations. Any company operating thusly is pretty much required to have those kind of statements in their financial statements. There's always the possibility that the market turns sour (like what is happening now) and the ability of these fledgling companies to keep getting money until they can actually start making revenue will dry up.

That being said, Canoo is a long ways away from meaningful production, and they are burning cash quickly while they get off the ground. They have a bad strategy and an arguably unappealing product. To make things worse, they keep losing senior people and the CEO's compensation is suspect. If they were JUST burning money in pursuit of their goals I wouldn't be worried, because that is typical with this stage of a massive start-up. It's the loss of senior people and failure to come up with an appealing design that really spells trouble.

I hope it somehow works out, but with the markets turning ugly they have a high chance of getting flushed. Back in 2019 or so they could have still made it just because the bull market made getting funding easy.

In the ordinary cases you mention, they never say that their continuation is "doubtful." It's a major red flag. My friends and I always thought it smelled a bit like a fluke of a company that would never make it, and I hate to see it might be going that way. I see very little about this company on any major national business media. Never really felt like a legitimate startup. The governor, of course, will face no repercussions as long as he continues effing with Indian tribes and throwing out national red meat.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on May 11, 2022, 04:35:27 pm
This is a misunderstanding of how financial statements work. Canoo has always burned cash and has never generated revenue to my knowledge, and certainly has never posted a profit. Therefore, they rely on their ability to acquire debt and/or issue equity to fund their continued operations. Any company operating thusly is pretty much required to have those kind of statements in their financial statements. There's always the possibility that the market turns sour (like what is happening now) and the ability of these fledgling companies to keep getting money until they can actually start making revenue will dry up.

That being said, Canoo is a long ways away from meaningful production, and they are burning cash quickly while they get off the ground. They have a bad strategy and an arguably unappealing product. To make things worse, they keep losing senior people and the CEO's compensation is suspect. If they were JUST burning money in pursuit of their goals I wouldn't be worried, because that is typical with this stage of a massive start-up. It's the loss of senior people and failure to come up with an appealing design that really spells trouble.

I hope it somehow works out, but with the markets turning ugly they have a high chance of getting flushed. Back in 2019 or so they could have still made it just because the bull market made getting funding easy.

This company has been a clusterfark from day one when it basically morphed from another failing EV company. In it's defense however, Tesla builds some ugly cars too. I think in the end all these independent electric car companies are gonna be goners (Tesla included) but it'll be fun to watch the carnage while it lasts.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Laramie on May 12, 2022, 09:01:22 am
As much as many of us are rooting for this multi-million plant for Pryor, Canoo's track record doesn't look that promising.

The State has money thru the Quality Jobs Program; however until Canoo can show that they are legit and not depending on OPMs  
it's beginning to look bleak.

Hope we can secure the Panasonic Battery Plant; that will be a 'win' for the State and a 'good get' for Tulsa.  Panasonic has an
agreement to supply batteries for Canoo's EV, there's weight on Canoo tied to Panasonic.



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 12, 2022, 10:34:18 am
Canoo has always looked like a pyramid scheme of some sort.  By this point, even a small prototype plant could have been put together somewhere and started cranking out real product.  What have they made?  Something like 40-45 cars?   One of the TV show car places like Gas Monkey or Count's Customs could have done better.  And spent a LOT less money doing it!




Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on May 15, 2022, 10:54:04 pm
Now this would be an interesting development.  Imagine both Apple and Google in Pryor

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-looks-to-acquire-the-start-up-Canoo-to-bolster-its-e-vehicle-division.619827.0.html (https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-looks-to-acquire-the-start-up-Canoo-to-bolster-its-e-vehicle-division.619827.0.html)


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: swake on May 15, 2022, 11:09:24 pm
Now this would be an interesting development.  Imagine both Apple and Google in Pryor

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-looks-to-acquire-the-start-up-Canoo-to-bolster-its-e-vehicle-division.619827.0.html (https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-looks-to-acquire-the-start-up-Canoo-to-bolster-its-e-vehicle-division.619827.0.html)

Bring in an AWS data center and have the trifecta.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Red Arrow on May 15, 2022, 11:26:13 pm
Now this would be an interesting development.  Imagine both Apple and Google in Pryor

They would probably build at the other end of the airport and then complain about the airplanes.



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: shavethewhales on May 16, 2022, 07:33:38 am
That would be a beautiful plot twist... except that may mean their plans for the Pryor plant would be scrapped. Canoo is already too spread out. It's like they courted both AR and OK and couldn't pick one so they tried to make us both happy - or maybe just maximize the free tax money handouts. Not sure what apple would do with the company if they got it. OK has a pretty sweet deal already signed, so maybe they would tilt things in our favor for the production plant at least? Not sure what AR offered them.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on May 16, 2022, 08:09:02 am
That would be a beautiful plot twist... except that may mean their plans for the Pryor plant would be scrapped. Canoo is already too spread out. It's like they courted both AR and OK and couldn't pick one so they tried to make us both happy - or maybe just maximize the free tax money handouts. Not sure what apple would do with the company if they got it. OK has a pretty sweet deal already signed, so maybe they would tilt things in our favor for the production plant at least? Not sure what AR offered them.

Depends on how involved Wal-Mart is in any new deal with Canoo/Apple.  The plan was always to have the "mega micro plant" in Pryor and a smaller facility in Bentonville.  HQ in Bentonville and R&D in Tulsa.  Panasonic would be the lynchpin, if they are building at Mid-America and assuming they are still using their batteries it makes sense to keep the production there and benefit from all the incentives.  Most of the R&D stays in Cupertino but maybe some engineering support can still be located in Tulsa.  There is a great new office building waiting for them at Cameron & Detroit.   :)


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 16, 2022, 07:25:55 pm
The Tulsa region has been on the bad end of things so many times on big deals hopefully these is our time for some good luck. Would be awesome to have Apple in the region - the further along the factory in Pryor gets the less likely they'd consolidate staff in California. It'd be too valuable of a site to get rid of if the factory had substantial progress made. Makes even more sense with Panasonic there too - would be a great partnership for Apple on EV development.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Laramie on May 18, 2022, 03:20:55 pm
The Tulsa region has been on the bad end of things so many times on big deals hopefully these is our time for some good luck. Would be awesome to have Apple in the region - the further along the factory in Pryor gets the less likely they'd consolidate staff in California. It'd be too valuable of a site to get rid of if the factory had substantial progress made. Makes even more sense with Panasonic there too - would be a great partnership for Apple on EV development.

Rumor | Apple looks to acquire the start-up Canoo to bolster its e-vehicle division:  https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-looks-to-acquire-the-start-up-Canoo-to-bolster-its-e-vehicle-division.619827.0.html (https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-looks-to-acquire-the-start-up-Canoo-to-bolster-its-e-vehicle-division.619827.0.html)


If Apple were to acquire Canoo, you don't have to concern yourself with Tulsa area being on the bad end of anything.   The 'capital' will be there and the proposals from the state will kick in.  Fingers crossed.

If Apple were to get involved that would solidify Canoo's portfolio with the capital to back up Canoo investment and the State of Oklahoma
would be more willing to release whatever funds are needed to bring those jobs to Oklahoma.

Governor Kevin Stitt is looking for a 'win' following the Swadley's debacle and the complete fall-out he has had with the tribes. Predict Stitt
will have trouble getting re-elected.



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on May 19, 2022, 04:35:24 am
Rumor | Apple looks to acquire the start-up Canoo to bolster its e-vehicle division:  https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-looks-to-acquire-the-start-up-Canoo-to-bolster-its-e-vehicle-division.619827.0.html (https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-looks-to-acquire-the-start-up-Canoo-to-bolster-its-e-vehicle-division.619827.0.html)


If Apple were to acquire Canoo, you don't have to concern yourself with Tulsa area being on the bad end of anything.   The 'capital' will be there and the proposals from the state will kick in.  Fingers crossed.

If Apple were to get involved that would solidify Canoo's portfolio with the capital to back up Canoo investment and the State of Oklahoma
would be more willing to release whatever funds are needed to bring those jobs to Oklahoma.

Governor Kevin Stitt is looking for a 'win' following the Swadley's debacle and the complete fall-out he has had with the tribes. Predict Stitt
will have trouble getting re-elected.



If Apple is smart, and they are, they'll let Canoo declare bankruptcy and then buy them out of that so they don't have to assume any debt.

I hope Stitt gets kicked to the curb but I'm sure if that happens this state will just find a way to elect another incompetent idiot with delusions of grandeur.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on May 19, 2022, 06:18:14 am
If Apple is smart, and they are, they'll let Canoo declare bankruptcy and then buy them out of that so they don't have to assume any debt.

I hope Stitt gets kicked to the curb but I'm sure if that happens this state will just find a way to elect another incompetent idiot with delusions of grandeur.

Not sure if he would run but the mayor of OKC, David Holt, would be a good option for governor.  Republican but moderate and pro-education and economic development


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 19, 2022, 10:26:59 am
Not sure if he would run but the mayor of OKC, David Holt, would be a good option for governor.  Republican but moderate and pro-education and economic development

Agreed - I'm still unsure about Joy of where she really stands on things. David I think would give Stitt a good primary challenge if he could successfully motivate moderates to actually vote. Unfortunately in Oklahoma that is a massive problem.

I used to think GT would be great, but not anymore. He's a wolf in sheep's clothing and extremely politically motivated - Holt seems to be an actual really good person. The Lt. Governor too I think would be 100x better as a Governor than Stitt, I wish he'd primary against him.

If Apple is smart, and they are, they'll let Canoo declare bankruptcy and then buy them out of that so they don't have to assume any debt.

I hope Stitt gets kicked to the curb but I'm sure if that happens this state will just find a way to elect another incompetent idiot with delusions of grandeur.

Apple seems to be really interested in the employees of Canoo from what I have seen a few places. They are desperate for more engineers for their automotive project. Seems to be mixed opinions if Canoo's software is of much interest or not.

If they let Canoo file, it's likely they'll have layoffs and hemorrhage employees/talent. Apple probably has the sway to renegotiate debt terms so they might be able to do essentially what bankruptcy would do on that side without the risk of losing talent they need.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: swake on May 19, 2022, 12:44:05 pm
Agreed - I'm still unsure about Joy of where she really stands on things. David I think would give Stitt a good primary challenge if he could successfully motivate moderates to actually vote. Unfortunately in Oklahoma that is a massive problem.

I used to think GT would be great, but not anymore. He's a wolf in sheep's clothing and extremely politically motivated - Holt seems to be an actual really good person. The Lt. Governor too I think would be 100x better as a Governor than Stitt, I wish he'd primary against him.

Apple seems to be really interested in the employees of Canoo from what I have seen a few places. They are desperate for more engineers for their automotive project. Seems to be mixed opinions if Canoo's software is of much interest or not.

If they let Canoo file, it's likely they'll have layoffs and hemorrhage employees/talent. Apple probably has the sway to renegotiate debt terms so they might be able to do essentially what bankruptcy would do on that side without the risk of losing talent they need.

Apple is holding over $200 billion in cash. They don't need financing.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 20, 2022, 02:56:36 pm
Apple is holding over $200 billion in cash. They don't need financing.

That's very true - Canoo would be a fairly minor purchase for them in comparison to the size of Apple.



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 20, 2022, 03:00:28 pm
Anyone else hear anything about another possible 2,000 job employer?

Stitt made a comment about how he just secured another company of 2,000 jobs - sounded in context that this was not Canoo and then mentioned 'Project Ocean' which is Panasonic.

It was just a super brief clip of him talking that was on Channel 8 and haven't been able to find the clip again anywhere.

The legislature is working on another economic incentives bill and seems like it's in relation to this - that would grant tax credits differently for large scale expansion and would make it more permanent. Was called LEAD act or something like that I think - could totally be wrong on the name. This is something separate from legislation that was for Project Ocean.

Stitt did say that Project Ocean is in the process of board approval within the company so my guess is it'll probably be another month or two before formal announcements are made.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: swake on May 20, 2022, 03:29:15 pm
Anyone else hear anything about another possible 2,000 job employer?

Stitt made a comment about how he just secured another company of 2,000 jobs - sounded in context that this was not Canoo and then mentioned 'Project Ocean' which is Panasonic.

It was just a super brief clip of him talking that was on Channel 8 and haven't been able to find the clip again anywhere.

The legislature is working on another economic incentives bill and seems like it's in relation to this - that would grant tax credits differently for large scale expansion and would make it more permanent. Was called LEAD act or something like that I think - could totally be wrong on the name. This is something separate from legislation that was for Project Ocean.

Stitt did say that Project Ocean is in the process of board approval within the company so my guess is it'll probably be another month or two before formal announcements are made.

There was money in the Panasonic bill for an unnamed second company at Pryor.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 20, 2022, 08:33:17 pm
There was money in the Panasonic bill for an unnamed second company at Pryor.

Interesting... did it say anything about location, sector, etc. ?

I can't remember what that bill even was number or named to be able to pull it up.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on June 09, 2022, 06:32:14 am
I see that Canoo is in serious trouble even though the have a deal in the works with NASA to build a vehicle for transporting astronauts to the launch pad.

Quote
BENTONVILLE, Ark. (KNWA/KFTA) — The electric vehicle maker promising to bring more than 500 jobs to Northwest Arkansas might not have enough cash to last another year.

Six months ago, Canoo announced plans to move its headquarters to Bentonville and create a research and development center in Fayetteville. Since then, the start-up has hit a number of bumps in the road. In December, three top executives left the company. Then, came its first-quarter earnings report. Canoo reported a net loss of $125 million and was forced to issue a warning that there is substantial doubt it can meet its financial obligations 12 months from now.

It has not been all bad news. Canoo has thousands of pre-orders and plans to start production by the end of the year. Even NASA has taken notice, selecting Canoo to provide transportation for astronauts to the launchpad for an upcoming mission to the moon. KNWA’s Chad Mira took a test drive with the CEO to learn more about the vehicle and its pathway to production.

https://www.nwahomepage.com/news/ev-maker-moving-to-nwa-issues-financial-warning/ (https://www.nwahomepage.com/news/ev-maker-moving-to-nwa-issues-financial-warning/)

Also, I highly doubt that Walmart will enter into a deal with Apple after they have already entered into a deal with Samsung for ~1million phones for their store employees. The company I work for has been building the phones for a year, and we have built among three locations approximately 700k phones so far.

Here is the info on the phones

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-ktxfDRt/0/4ddc21a2/L/i-ktxfDRt-L.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/Misc-3/n-x46z7K/i-ktxfDRt/A)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-22stc4g/0/e346ba76/L/i-22stc4g-L.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/Misc-3/n-x46z7K/i-22stc4g/A)


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 09, 2022, 07:54:13 am
I see that Canoo is in serious trouble even though the have a deal in the works with NASA to build a vehicle for transporting astronauts to the launch pad.





Geez....they are gonna make a passenger van....!



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: shavethewhales on June 09, 2022, 08:05:01 am
^^That's just old news being regurgitated. Same "going concern" discussion. They have some money from now and have apparently already been producing a few cars in AR. Probably hand built and cost them a ton, but hopefully they are on the way to scaling and automation. If they can produce a couple thousand cars this year they may get to stick around.

If you check their twitter feed they've been showing off a bunch of their vans lately to AR officials and media.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on June 09, 2022, 09:52:06 am
Lots of chatter out of Kansas regarding Panasonic.  Their governor “very confident” they will land the plant. 

 https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2022/06/06/kansas-laura-kelly-megaproject-panasonic.html (https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2022/06/06/kansas-laura-kelly-megaproject-panasonic.html)


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Jake on June 09, 2022, 10:25:09 am
lol


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on June 09, 2022, 12:16:33 pm
If Oklahoma somehow blows the Panasonic deal, it might be the last straw in terms of me starting to look to move out of state. Not that it affects me personally, but it would show that the state isn't progressing at all. Fingers crossed.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on June 13, 2022, 02:23:04 am
If Oklahoma somehow blows the Panasonic deal, it might be the last straw in terms of me starting to look to move out of state. Not that it affects me personally, but it would show that the state isn't progressing at all. Fingers crossed.

Want a job building batteries

https://www.azcommerce.com/news-events/news/2021/7/kore-power-selects-arizona-site-for-one-million-square-foot-koreplex-lithium-ion-battery-manufacturing-facility/ (https://www.azcommerce.com/news-events/news/2021/7/kore-power-selects-arizona-site-for-one-million-square-foot-koreplex-lithium-ion-battery-manufacturing-facility/)

Recycling Li Ion batteries

https://ktar.com/story/5062729/lithium-ion-battery-recycling-plant-opens-in-gilbert/ (https://ktar.com/story/5062729/lithium-ion-battery-recycling-plant-opens-in-gilbert/)

or building cars for Lucid Motors? A friend just got hired, starts July 1st at $58k plus 15,000 shares of stock as a bonus.

https://www.indeed.com/q-Lucid-l-Arizona-jobs.html?vjk=c16f60efa80cde0d (https://www.indeed.com/q-Lucid-l-Arizona-jobs.html?vjk=c16f60efa80cde0d)


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 13, 2022, 07:15:46 am
If Oklahoma somehow blows the Panasonic deal, it might be the last straw in terms of me starting to look to move out of state. Not that it affects me personally, but it would show that the state isn't progressing at all. Fingers crossed.


Just gotta keep plugging away, trying to educate those you can!   And realize that this has always been a fascist state, much like the US has always been a fascist country, and just go on!   Hint;  another state ain't gonna help!


Watch Trey - he puts it all into proper perspective!   Anywhere ya go,....there ya are!

Oh, yeah...our raccoons have been busy!  (You will get the reference in about the first 10 seconds of the video!) There are now 4 babies running around with Mama in the backyard!   Living under our shed, while Mama lives in the attic next door!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu5znlyX9uY&t=3s








Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on June 19, 2022, 01:55:00 pm
If Oklahoma somehow blows the Panasonic deal, it might be the last straw in terms of me starting to look to move out of state. Not that it affects me personally, but it would show that the state isn't progressing at all. Fingers crossed.

The Sunflower site in Kansas is likely a better site halfway between Lawrence and Kansas City.  So closer to where workers currently live vs the more isolated Mid-America location.  While of course I want to see Oklahoma land it I can understand and won’t be too surprised if it doesn’t.  Plenty of future opportunities available, and glad that OK is getting into the mix on these expansions.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Tulsan on June 20, 2022, 10:48:36 am
Take it with a grain of salt - because nobody knows - but I heard rumors that Panasonic may split the factory and do both sites to ensure they can fill all positions.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on June 21, 2022, 07:20:25 am
So we've gone from OK is gonna get it to KS is gonna get it to we're both gonna get it which means only one thing....


Texas is gonna get it.   :-\


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on July 01, 2022, 08:34:03 am
Now talk of delaying the Canoo plant due to BS reasons.

https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/canoos-proposed-electric-vehicle-plant-in-pryor-could-be-delayed-industrial-park-head-says/article_4421c660-f896-11ec-945c-93628edd01aa.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

FTA - “It is in delay mode, but that’s for a number of reasons,” MAIP Chief Administrative Officer David Stewart said Thursday before a regular meeting of the Oklahoma Ordnance Works Authority, which operates the industrial park.

“The whole EV market has taken a significant hit. The stock market is challenged at best,” he continued.

“Supply-chain issues are big, as they are with all companies, but especially with a start-up that has a new product. Canoo’s goal is to have this 100% made in the U.S., so that is also delaying the project.

“Finally, construction costs are through the roof. So the right financial decision is to wait until these supply-chain issues and construction costs go down and the construction labor market builds.”

My favorite take-away from that smorgasbord of excuses is Canoo’s goal is to have this "100% made in the U.S., so that is also delaying the project." At face value this will guarantee they'll never build anything. No way can you make 100% of the parts in any one country since even if you have final assembly of every component here, all the components will be full of foreign made parts. I never had much confidence in this company actually doing anything but I've completely given up on these chuckleheads now - this whole thing is sooooo much vaporware and Stitt and his twits bought right into it.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on July 04, 2022, 03:44:38 pm
Construction costs aren't going down either.  High cost of everything is our "new normal"


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: D-TownTulsan on July 12, 2022, 07:49:57 am
Some good news finally!

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canoo-shares-soar-premarket-after-walmart-orders-4500-electric-delivery-vehicles-plus-option-for-up-to-10000-more-2022-07-12


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on July 12, 2022, 12:12:41 pm
I didn't think the Walton's would let this die when they were moving their HQ to Bentonville and setting up a manufacturing operation there.  They still need to scale up before they really need the Pryor plant but this is a definitely a step in the right direction.  Hopefully this helps us land Panasonic as well.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on July 13, 2022, 06:22:52 am
All they're doing is leasing a building in Bentonville and they still need to build it out to make anything there. They're claiming they're going to start small-scale production of vehicles there while waiting on the Pryor factory to be built which, the last I read was Pryor is maybe 4-5 years out now. Seeing as how they don't have enough money in the bank to make it another quarter they're probably hoping the Wal-Mart deal with help them secure some more capital to keep things afloat. But building out the Bentonville location to be a headquarters, design/engineering studio and a mini-factory is gonna take some serious coin - I still don't see this happening. Rivian has $16b cash in the bank, has their own factory, made/sold over 4000 cars last quarter and they're still doing some lay-offs to keep their liquidity healthy. Canoo, on the other hand, is robbing Peter to pay Paul and think they can keep doing that for the next however many years until they magically can make tons of cars a year and become cash flow positive. Good luck with that.

However, yes, I do still hope we land the Panasonic plant but I'm also starting to wonder if Stitt has made a backroom deal with Panasonic to either announce it is happening in Sept/Oct or say it isn't happening in Dec.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on July 13, 2022, 11:10:05 am
Well that’s disappointing. 

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Panasonic-to-build-EV-battery-plant-for-Tesla-in-U.S.-state-of-Kansas (https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Panasonic-to-build-EV-battery-plant-for-Tesla-in-U.S.-state-of-Kansas)


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Jake on July 13, 2022, 11:10:53 am
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Panasonic-to-build-EV-battery-plant-for-Tesla-in-U.S.-state-of-Kansas

The state absolutely blew it again. Large companies have skipped us over to our immediate south and now immediate north. State leadership has been an abject failure and this will continue until changes are made.

So completely demoralizing.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Jake on July 13, 2022, 11:26:14 am
Panasonic themselves stated that they wanted it to be near the new Texas Tesla facility. Oklahoma did such a horrible job that they were willing to place the plant farther away.

Wow.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on July 13, 2022, 11:31:59 am
Panasonic themselves stated that they wanted it to be near the new Texas Tesla facility. Oklahoma did such a horrible job that they were willing to place the plant farther away.

Wow.

Oklahoma was a longshot for Tesla but it seemed like Panasonic was a good fit.  Hopefully we find out more about their selection process, if it came down to incentives or if it was something else. 

Mid-America is a prime spot for manufacturing, if the state can get its act together they should be able to land these companies.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: shavethewhales on July 13, 2022, 11:38:12 am
Beyond disappointing. I don't blame them. The company has a better understanding of all the data than any of us and if they made this choice that means Kansas had a better combination of intrinsic qualities and subsidies. I think we were highly competitive with the subsidies, so once again it is the intrinsic factors of the state that are the issue. Not enough college grads sticking around, poor infrastructure, and a government of incapable lunatics among our many issues.

I'm tired of this. I thought we really had a shot at something... anything. I thought they might split the factory and put one in both locations as previously suggested. I didn't think we would get nothing at all. No Panasonic and no Canoo, and certainly no Tesla.

I'm over being optimistic for Tulsa.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on July 13, 2022, 11:45:41 am
It's one thing to lose to Texas.  It's another thing altogether to lose to KANSAS. 

I think Tulsa still is a bright spot with unlimited potential but the state government has to change for us to really take the next step.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on July 13, 2022, 12:26:24 pm
Terrible. No hope going forward for the state. We're moving backwards in every important category. Not sure how much longer I can take it here.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on July 13, 2022, 12:37:40 pm
Fundamentally, what needs to change to increase Tulsa's competitiveness? The lack of higher ed learning institutions certainly doesn't help. TU is great and all, but it's so small. Employers look for large pools of talent, something that Tulsa does not naturally have. Maybe that changes slightly with Tulsa Remote?


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on July 13, 2022, 01:28:18 pm
Fundamentally, what needs to change to increase Tulsa's competitiveness? The lack of higher ed learning institutions certainly doesn't help. TU is great and all, but it's so small. Employers look for large pools of talent, something that Tulsa does not naturally have. Maybe that changes slightly with Tulsa Remote?

I can't speak for our competitiveness at the state level but locally these are things that are generating positive momentum:
- Enhanced quality of life through new community green spaces like the Gathering Place and expanded/enhanced trails along the river and at Turkey Mountain/Keystone Ancient Forest
- Continued revitalization of downtown with more residential, restaurant, nightlife and cultural amenities and expanding existing districts like Brookside and Cherry Street - potential for emerging districts in the Pearl, Kendall-Whittier and Riverview
- Revitalization of key corridors like 11th/Rt 66 into mixed-use destinations
- Building up TU focusing on the growth of its student body, increasing levels of research and interaction with the surrounding community
- Building up OU and OSU - specifically OU's Polytechnic Institute initiative and OSU's growing health center complex downtown
- Fostering the growth of a start up and tech ecosystem downtown - GKFF has been instrumental in laying the seeds for this

Keep working on the items above and the city can stay competitive until the state government is more competent (if ever). 


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: DowntownDan on July 13, 2022, 01:29:44 pm
We can start by avoiding embarrassments like a school board that can't pass basic funding votes because three members think political stunts are more important than public education, and seem to be determined to destroy public education entirely.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: shavethewhales on July 13, 2022, 01:54:38 pm
Fundamentally, what needs to change to increase Tulsa's competitiveness? The lack of higher ed learning institutions certainly doesn't help. TU is great and all, but it's so small. Employers look for large pools of talent, something that Tulsa does not naturally have. Maybe that changes slightly with Tulsa Remote?

Improving higher education is priority #1 followed closely by K-12 education. Then keeping graduates here through quality of life improvements.

I don't see many major improvements on the horizon towards education though. As other people keep mentioning, the Tulsa schoolboard fiasco and attacks from the governor and others are just adding fuel to the bonfire. OK just had a teacher strike a few years ago and things have only gotten worse as more and more teachers leave the state or the profession entirely. Outside of a few districts in the larger metros, our schools are some of the worst in the nation and keep getting worse.

People pretty much only come to OK at this point because it's (relatively) cheap.

I dunno, I think we are fighting a losing battle here. Maybe OK should regress so that other places can gain. Clearly many of the people that live in this state despise progress and "outsiders". I have pretty much run out of ways to defend why a company should come to Tulsa as opposed to any of the other cities within 4 hours that we consistently lose to. At this point I am ready to leave once I finish my MBA at OSU.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Jake on July 13, 2022, 02:35:58 pm
It's already been mentioned, but higher education has to be better in order to attract/retain talent.

Tulsa has done a lot to generate momentum for itself. So has OKC. The largest metros are fighting to push themselves forward but are fighting against a state government that is doing everything in its power to make it hard for them to succeed.

An even average governor/legislature would allow Tulsa to thrive.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Rattle Trap on July 13, 2022, 02:53:56 pm
The decision almost certainly came down to incentives. Kansas offered significantly more ($1.2 billion) compared to our $700 million. The TIF would've helped close that gap, but it was facing legal challenges.

If the state matched Kansas at $1.2 billion, half of you on this thread would be complaining that we're sacrificing too much for one company lol.

Better luck next time.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Jake on July 13, 2022, 03:03:48 pm
Why do we throw money at crypto mining operations and a car manufacturer that may not exist in two years but we're woefully unprepared to lure an actual, established company like Panasonic? This isn't a good look, regardless.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on July 13, 2022, 03:27:43 pm
The decision almost certainly came down to incentives. Kansas offered significantly more ($1.2 billion) compared to our $700 million. The TIF would've helped close that gap, but it was facing legal challenges.

If the state matched Kansas at $1.2 billion, half of you on this thread would be complaining that we're sacrificing too much for one company lol.

Better luck next time.

I wonder if the TIF was a big factor.  Panasonic already had over a billion dollars in incentives from Kansas and a significant chunk of Oklahoma's incentive was dependent on a November ballot vote.  This from the Kansas City Business Journal:
Quote
This spring, Oklahoma approved a cumulative $848 million in local and state incentives. But a $300 million portion — a 12-year tax increment financing district inside Pryor's MidAmerica Industrial Park — was subject to a referendum petition, seeking to put the district's formation to a ballot vote in November. The petition recently was challenged in court, and a hearing date was not set as of early July.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Tulsan on July 13, 2022, 06:40:11 pm
Take it with a grain of salt - because nobody knows - but I heard rumors that Panasonic may split the factory and do both sites to ensure they can fill all positions.

https://nondoc.com/2022/07/13/report-panasonic-selects-kansas-battery-plant/

Quote
Multiple people with knowledge of those negotiations told NonDoc this afternoon that the company has chosen the Kansas site for its newest manufacturing facility. However, those same people said Panasonic has been considering whether to build a second battery plant, which could ultimately be located in Pryor to take advantage of a nearly $700 million rebate incentive created by the Oklahoma Legislature earlier this year.

“Oklahoma is not totally out of it,” said an individual closely connected to the state’s recruitment efforts on the condition of anonymity. “The electric vehicle market is only growing.”



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Red Arrow on July 14, 2022, 12:18:03 am
Being the Buckle of the Bible Belt is probably a contributing (not favorable) factor. I would not move to OK now from someplace else but my parents accepted a job transfer here from PA in 1971.  I have friends here and contacts for my activities so I put up with the right wing religious wackos because I don't have another place I want to go to. 




Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on July 14, 2022, 06:19:50 am
Being the Buckle of the Bible Belt is probably a contributing (not favorable) factor.

This. I wouldn't want to be in business with a state government that is as beholden to the religious right-wingers as Oklahoma is. Plus they've already got abortion banned so what happens when they go after contraception? It would be impossible for a company to hire anyone to move to a state as backwards as that.
 


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on July 14, 2022, 07:42:14 am
This. I wouldn't want to be in business with a state government that is as beholden to the religious right-wingers as Oklahoma is. Plus they've already got abortion banned so what happens when they go after contraception? It would be impossible for a company to hire anyone to move to a state as backwards as that.
 
It doesn't seem to affect Texas, Tennessee, Alabama and other Southern states which are equally right-wing.  Bottom line Oklahoma needs to up its economic development and incentives game.  Continue to build up infrastructure which for many years was woefully behind and still lags surrounding states.  Built-in advantages include a quality manufacturing workforce, reliable and low cost power and water (through GRDA), central location and low cost of living.  In NE Oklahoma there is also the advantage of living in a scenic area near hills, lakes and rivers.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: DowntownDan on July 14, 2022, 09:19:06 am
It doesn't seem to affect Texas, Tennessee, Alabama and other Southern states which are equally right-wing.  Bottom line Oklahoma needs to up its economic development and incentives game.  Continue to build up infrastructure which for many years was woefully behind and still lags surrounding states.  Built-in advantages include a quality manufacturing workforce, reliable and low cost power and water (through GRDA), central location and low cost of living.  In NE Oklahoma there is also the advantage of living in a scenic area near hills, lakes and rivers.

Texas has had too much momentum for too long for it to affect them too much, but the rest of the south outside the big popular pockets (Atlanta, Nashville...) are facing the same realities.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: DowntownDan on July 14, 2022, 09:20:59 am
Being the Buckle of the Bible Belt is probably a contributing (not favorable) factor. I would not move to OK now from someplace else but my parents accepted a job transfer here from PA in 1971.  I have friends here and contacts for my activities so I put up with the right wing religious wackos because I don't have another place I want to go to. 




I moved back here in 2008 seeing some momentum and things were trending upwards for some time which is why I'm still here, but if they succeed in literally destroying public education, I can't continue to raise my family here, and the headlines that are already out there about the most recent school board stunt is going to set us back bigtime. Schools are a big part of what draws relocations and we've officially established that we hate public schools. We complain that they aren't very good and complain about any and all solutions to the problems (i.e., money). The future is pretty dire from where I'm sitting.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Tulsa Zephyr on July 14, 2022, 09:23:50 am
Why do we throw money at crypto mining operations and a car manufacturer that may not exist in two years but we're woefully unprepared to lure an actual, established company like Panasonic? This isn't a good look, regardless.

Just read that Panasonic has landed in Kansas.  Maybe now Stitt can come up with incentives to get Bell's rebuilt?


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 14, 2022, 09:33:16 am
It doesn't seem to affect Texas, Tennessee, Alabama and other Southern states which are equally right-wing.  Bottom line Oklahoma needs to up its economic development and incentives game.  Continue to build up infrastructure which for many years was woefully behind and still lags surrounding states.  Built-in advantages include a quality manufacturing workforce, reliable and low cost power and water (through GRDA), central location and low cost of living.  In NE Oklahoma there is also the advantage of living in a scenic area near hills, lakes and rivers.

Add in Florida, etc. Between Texas, Tennessee, and Florida they are some of the fastest growing states in terms of business relocation and expansion and they are arguably more right-wing than Oklahoma. Texas barely has a functioning power grid for crying out loud.

It's just a convenient excuse to distract people that companies just don't want to move here because of our state government. I'm not a Republican but I don't think this is something to blame them for things like the abortion ban. At the end of the day corporate America doesn't give a s**t, the money they'd spend to pay for workers to seek medical care elsewhere is far far far less than the tax breaks they get from Republicans. Wether this turns into a recruitment issue I don't know.. it's possible but Oklahoma isn't in any different of a position then Tennessee, Texas, Florida. Frankly Oklahoma will be closer to states with legal abortion than any of those other states. I can assure you that Elon Musk gives zero cares about issues like that, he wanted to be in a conservative state that he didn't have to deal with 'liberal' issues like masks, taxes, and any COVID related shutdowns. They didn't pick Austin because it was the liberal star of Texas it just had the workforce and related industries it needed for an HQ.

The reality is our state just plan sucks as economic development. Tulsa should be running circles around metros like Kansas City. We market ourselves terribly and there is a pervasive attitude even within leadership of our region that Tulsa just isn't deserving of big things and it's not possible here. We've really lost the spirit that is needed to be able to get the types of projects Austin and Nashville were able to land that started their trajectory they are on. For example until Arthur came in at the Chamber our ONLY recruitment efforts were to site location companies. That is so a** backwards is laughable. There is a reason we have been in stagnation for so long it is because we never had anyone actually trying in a manner that made a difference. He even talked about it several times of he didn't understand why we weren't just picking up the phone and calling CEO's to tell them about Tulsa. By the time they are working with site location experts they're already too far down the process to make a difference.

Tulsa has got to pivot and sell it's self better. We are smack in the middle of a region that is growing incredibly fast. I've said it so many times but our recruitment area is much larger than just the MSA. The mobility between regions like Tulsa-NWA, Tulsa-OKC, etc. is not bad. If say a Tesla opened here their immediate recruitment areas extend well beyond Tulsa. Oklahoma City, NWA, Ft. Smith, Joplin, Springfield, Wichita, etc. are all essentially within play to pull workers and we have to take advantage of that and that's a 4-5 million + population area that Tulsa is closer to get to than KC, St. Louis, Dallas, etc. You can easily build out recruitment pipelines from Oklahoma State, Univ of Oklahoma, Wichita State, Univ of Arkansas, Missouri State, etc. There is not a lack of talent in this region, it's just a bit more fragmented than an area like Austin, Denver, Nashville. You can't tell me that a college student at the Univ of Arkansas that was offered a job at a Tesla HQ in Tulsa wouldn't move here? Please. We have assets to leverage we just don't. It's incredibly frustrating.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 14, 2022, 09:37:12 am
I wouldn't be surprised if Panasonic is splitting the facility.

Why wouldn't they just build a $2-2.5 billion plant in each state instead of one $5 billion plant?

You'd get an extra $1 billion in incentives because the facility sizes are still large enough to qualify for the incentives in both areas...

I wouldn't be surprised if the announcement was meant to destroy the possibility of a legal challenge to the TIF and then once that's past they'll announce something. Like oh hey we decided to build a 'second' facility in the US, when in reality is just a splitting of the original proposal. There's already been hints of that out there. Disappointing for sure, but hopeful that is what is happening behind closed doors.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: AdamsHall on July 14, 2022, 01:27:10 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if Panasonic is splitting the facility.

Why wouldn't they just build a $2-2.5 billion plant in each state instead of one $5 billion plant?

You'd get an extra $1 billion in incentives because the facility sizes are still large enough to qualify for the incentives in both areas...

I wouldn't be surprised if the announcement was meant to destroy the possibility of a legal challenge to the TIF and then once that's past they'll announce something. Like oh hey we decided to build a 'second' facility in the US, when in reality is just a splitting of the original proposal. There's already been hints of that out there. Disappointing for sure, but hopeful that is what is happening behind closed doors.

You may be correct about the split.  Even if Panasonic doesn't locate a 2nd facility in Pryor, there are other well-heeled suitors that are very interested in placing a similar facility in the that location. 


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on July 14, 2022, 04:10:05 pm
Add in Florida, etc. Between Texas, Tennessee, and Florida they are some of the fastest growing states in terms of business relocation and expansion and they are arguably more right-wing than Oklahoma. Texas barely has a functioning power grid for crying out loud.

It's just a convenient excuse to distract people that companies just don't want to move here because of our state government. I'm not a Republican but I don't think this is something to blame them for things like the abortion ban. At the end of the day corporate America doesn't give a s**t, the money they'd spend to pay for workers to seek medical care elsewhere is far far far less than the tax breaks they get from Republicans. Wether this turns into a recruitment issue I don't know.. it's possible but Oklahoma isn't in any different of a position then Tennessee, Texas, Florida. Frankly Oklahoma will be closer to states with legal abortion than any of those other states. I can assure you that Elon Musk gives zero cares about issues like that, he wanted to be in a conservative state that he didn't have to deal with 'liberal' issues like masks, taxes, and any COVID related shutdowns. They didn't pick Austin because it was the liberal star of Texas it just had the workforce and related industries it needed for an HQ.

The reality is our state just plan sucks as economic development. Tulsa should be running circles around metros like Kansas City. We market ourselves terribly and there is a pervasive attitude even within leadership of our region that Tulsa just isn't deserving of big things and it's not possible here. We've really lost the spirit that is needed to be able to get the types of projects Austin and Nashville were able to land that started their trajectory they are on. For example until Arthur came in at the Chamber our ONLY recruitment efforts were to site location companies. That is so a** backwards is laughable. There is a reason we have been in stagnation for so long it is because we never had anyone actually trying in a manner that made a difference. He even talked about it several times of he didn't understand why we weren't just picking up the phone and calling CEO's to tell them about Tulsa. By the time they are working with site location experts they're already too far down the process to make a difference.

Tulsa has got to pivot and sell it's self better. We are smack in the middle of a region that is growing incredibly fast. I've said it so many times but our recruitment area is much larger than just the MSA. The mobility between regions like Tulsa-NWA, Tulsa-OKC, etc. is not bad. If say a Tesla opened here their immediate recruitment areas extend well beyond Tulsa. Oklahoma City, NWA, Ft. Smith, Joplin, Springfield, Wichita, etc. are all essentially within play to pull workers and we have to take advantage of that and that's a 4-5 million + population area that Tulsa is closer to get to than KC, St. Louis, Dallas, etc. You can easily build out recruitment pipelines from Oklahoma State, Univ of Oklahoma, Wichita State, Univ of Arkansas, Missouri State, etc. There is not a lack of talent in this region, it's just a bit more fragmented than an area like Austin, Denver, Nashville. You can't tell me that a college student at the Univ of Arkansas that was offered a job at a Tesla HQ in Tulsa wouldn't move here? Please. We have assets to leverage we just don't. It's incredibly frustrating.

Or, you know, it's all of the above. I'm sure Panasonic looked at every angle - you have to when that much money is in play. They had to look at a state that was physically in the right place, was a state where you could find the needed workers plus one where people would be willing to move to, plus tax incentives, and on and on and on. I don't feel bad when we lose to Texas only because they often get things due to location that we can't compete on but, damn, Kansas? And one of the reasons that Panasonic chose Kansas because of it's proximity to Texas? Ouch! We just suck. So it's basically Texas, irrelevant wasteland, and then Kansas. fml


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Tulsan on July 14, 2022, 08:42:25 pm
You may be correct about the split.  Even if Panasonic doesn't locate a 2nd facility in Pryor, there are other well-heeled suitors that are very interested in placing a similar facility in the that location. 

This is correct. Someone’s going to be building batteries in Pryor. That’s why the Governor’s office sounds so confident… the combination of hydro power, open land with infrastructure, and state subsidies is too enticing. People need to chill.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: buffalodan on July 14, 2022, 08:52:10 pm
So I believe you, but why does the hydropower matter? They have a coal + gas plant right there as well. And I'm pretty sure that coal plant can provide more power than the entire hydro network can.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Tulsan on July 14, 2022, 09:56:17 pm
So I believe you, but why does the hydropower matter? They have a coal + gas plant right there as well. And I'm pretty sure that coal plant can provide more power than the entire hydro network can.

Google ESG. Making batteries can be dirty work and hese companies want to show their shareholders that their massive power-sucking factories are carbon neutral.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on July 15, 2022, 05:30:55 am
The Tulsa Regional Chamber of Commerce says Oklahoma's abortion and transgender laws have out-of-state companies choosing to not come to Oklahoma and is causing problems for existing Oklahoma companies looking to hire out-of-state employees.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/state-laws-on-abortion-transgender-issues-have-companies-balking-on-coming-to-oklahoma-development-official/article_a2e516de-039f-11ed-b3a8-a7c7ba3a8b66.html#tracking-source=home-top-story


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on July 15, 2022, 05:40:10 am
aaaaaand that soulless turd Lankford blocked unanimous consent on a bill guaranteeing the right to interstate travel to have an abortion. So yea - build your factory here where women are not only considered second-class citizens but also can be legally trapped from leaving the state. Maybe we can get "Irrelevant Wasteland" on to our license plates.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/watch-now-oklahoma-sen-lankford-blocks-bill-guaranteeing-interstate-travel-for-abortion/article_25bd0880-03ac-11ed-bb13-c395c0f97687.html


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Rattle Trap on July 15, 2022, 07:02:05 am
The Tulsa Regional Chamber of Commerce says Oklahoma's abortion and transgender laws have out-of-state companies choosing to not come to Oklahoma and is causing problems for existing Oklahoma companies looking to hire out-of-state employees.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/state-laws-on-abortion-transgender-issues-have-companies-balking-on-coming-to-oklahoma-development-official/article_a2e516de-039f-11ed-b3a8-a7c7ba3a8b66.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

I promise you at the end of the day no serious company or individual is going to make a decision based on something like an abortion or bathroom law. A multi billion dollar company is not going to approach shareholders to tell them they couldn't expand to "x" state that provided low energy costs, cheap land, renewable energy, and a billion dollars in tax incentives just because said state has certain social law.

The housing market here hasn't slown down at all. You know who is buying these houses? People from other states. 30 year old doctors, 20 year old engineers, etc. All come here because they can buy big houses for half the price of what they'd pay elsewhere. Inflation is historic and people's main goal is to find a way or place they can afford to live comfortably.

Also, if a few companies bail out because our state no longer allows infanticide to be legal, then so be it.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 15, 2022, 08:59:55 am
I promise you at the end of the day no serious company or individual is going to make a decision based on something like an abortion or bathroom law. A multi billion dollar company is not going to approach shareholders to tell them they couldn't expand to "x" state that provided low energy costs, cheap land, renewable energy, and a billion dollars in tax incentives just because said state has certain social law.

The housing market here hasn't slown down at all. You know who is buying these houses? People from other states. 30 year old doctors, 20 year old engineers, etc. All come here because they can buy big houses for half the price of what they'd pay elsewhere. Inflation is historic and people's main goal is to find a way or place they can afford to live comfortably.

Also, if a few companies bail out because our state no longer allows infanticide to be legal, then so be it.


Doesn't matter to them if they can buy half price house.  When they are making 1/4 price wages.

More of the ones moving here are mid level people, a few years older than that, who had the good luck to find a job here or their company moved them here to a smaller branch facility.  And most of the places they come from, they have cashed out of a mid-sized house and find they can buy a McMansion here for that money.

And  then you have the absolute Clown Show of Stitt, Lankford, Inhofe, Mullin, Dahm...  

I guess if they like criminal activity, they would move here to be close to Stitt.  

If they feel that 13 is the proper age of consent for sex, they would love having their young daughters around Lankford's culture.  


And let's not forget turnpikes - even though we love to deny it, they are just one more factor in avoiding Oklahoma.  If you ever get the chance to talk to a bunch of truckers, you will be amazed how many will literally drive around OK just to avoid turnpike tolls.    And yeah, even with the higher diesel, there are some good alternate routes to OK turnpikes.

You are deluding yourself if you think these things don't enter into it - even if the C-suite could care less, they will have worker bees who do care about stuff like that.   Plus a lot of these potential companies already have some presence in the state and there is information interchange going on all the time between locals and national people.  We are considered, at best, a quiet little backwater with low wages, government that is friendly, but really is a dead-end with nothing to do.  Just look at the type of conventions and conferences we get.  Versus places with "big" attractions.


And if you still believe, "A multi billion dollar company is not going to approach shareholders to tell them they couldn't expand to "x" state that provided low energy costs, cheap land, renewable energy, and a billion dollars in tax incentives just because said state has certain social law."...

Then why do you think it ain't happening??
 




Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 15, 2022, 09:11:27 am

Add in Florida, etc. Between Texas, Tennessee, and Florida they are some of the fastest growing states in terms of business relocation and expansion and they are arguably more right-wing than Oklahoma. Texas barely has a functioning power grid for crying out loud.

The reality is our state just plan sucks as economic development.




Don't forget we have nothing comparable to the attractions that each of those has. 

TX.  Austin, Dallas, Houston.  Six Flags!!   And while their grid sucks, it does have 25% (and growing) coming from wind so it will improve - in spite of their sorry state government.


TN.  Music!  Everywhere!   And the most visited National Park in the US.


FL.  The Mouse.   At least for now...maybe we can get Disney World to move here!!??   And beaches!


And if you were somewhere in the US, including here in OK, and were hosting a conference...where would you go??  Tulsa?  OKC?   Or somewhere like Orlando, Anaheim, Dallas, Austin?  Nashville! 





Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on July 15, 2022, 10:45:25 am
Yea - I have a hard time showing any reason to actually put something in Oklahoma as opposed to anywhere else. Yes other states have some of the same problems and batshiat crazy government officials but none seem to put it altogether like a nice little fruit basket with a bow on top like Oklahoma does. Let's be totally honest here - the only use large businesses have for Oklahoma is to get counter-bids so they have something to play against in the state they actually want to put their factory. That being said I can't imagine they can even use us for that for much longer - people are gonna wise-up. "Oklahoma is offering an incentive package to you? Who would want to put a factory in that irrelevant wasteland? Nobody does!"

Tulsa and OKC just need to scrap the suburbs and then break away from Oklahoma - become East and West Sequoyah.





Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 15, 2022, 11:37:04 am
Yea - I have a hard time showing any reason to actually put something in Oklahoma as opposed to anywhere else. Yes other states have some of the same problems and batshiat crazy government officials but none seem to put it altogether like a nice little fruit basket with a bow on top like Oklahoma does. Let's be totally honest here - the only use large businesses have for Oklahoma is to get counter-bids so they have something to play against in the state they actually want to put their factory. That being said I can't imagine they can even use us for that for much longer - people are gonna wise-up. "Oklahoma is offering an incentive package to you? Who would want to put a factory in that irrelevant wasteland? Nobody does!"

Tulsa and OKC just need to scrap the suburbs and then break away from Oklahoma - become East and West Sequoyah.





I get people feel this way... but I mean come on do you really think Oklahoma is that much worse than say Kansas? What about Arkansas, Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, Alabama, etc. You think Huckabee is going to be less embarrassing than Stitt? Frankly I'd take Stitt over her any day, he at least runs a business even though he's corrupt. I think this election cycle's races in Oklahoma are going to be closer than many think and I hope Dems/Ind. actually go vote and we get someone like Joy, etc. in as leadership to counter the legislature a bit. People just need to stop bemoaning themselves and go vote.  

Dallas has absolutely nothing interesting to offer, it's that decades ago they made better infrastructure investments than Tulsa/OKC did with building DFW and other things. I get if someone picks Denver for the mountains or say Florida because of the ocean/beach but what does Dallas offer that Tulsa couldn't recreate? Nothing. I can assure you that after living there for a while. Frankly Dallas is probably 40% Oklahomans who would rather move back if they could and could keep their job.

Back prior to DFW, etc. Tulsa and Dallas weren't on too different of trajectories we just stopped investing in ourselves. They made critical upgrades that allowed DFW to become a hub and it wasn't really until about 10-ish years ago that they really started to be able to pick off headquarters and major expansions. DFW used to be considered the 'back office headquarters of america'. They slowly built up a workforce through that even if it wasn't fancy, expanded universities, and built up infrastructure like DFW and hit a tipping point and now it's a waterfall. Dallas isn't an interesting or great city, their leadership put in the work to get them to this point and were incredibly aggressive in business expansions/relocation. Dallas was turned down on many occasions for big expansions over the decades and each time that happened they learned from it. Something Tulsa has yet to really do - I can assure you it has nothing to do with our Republican leadership and how embarrassing they are because they're all over the US, Oklahoma is not unique in that. Dallas even had a committee set up after Amazon to figure out how to not let that happen again. A city/region that has a new HQ relocation every month it seems still cared enough to look at what they don't have that Amazon passed them over for Virginia and are making strategic action items to fix those deficiencies now. I can bet you Tulsa/regional leadership isn't doing that with Panasonic, Tesla, etc. People know what we need to do, but there's no strategic plan/action items to get everyone on the same boat. It's pretty much GKFF doing whatever they want, but at some point everyone has to get on the boat and row the same way.  

I still believe the biggest barrier to Tulsa succeeding is the mindset of not thinking big enough and general apathy amongst our population. We market ourselves poorly and we are not aggressive enough in business recruitment. That is 100% of the reason we are getting passed over.

Frankly it wouldn't take very long for Oklahoma to become a battle ground state if we could land a handful of good corporate expansions. The Dem/Independent voter difference to Republicans is not as large as many would think, it's just than voter turnout and excitement especially for non-Republicans is awful. That's been by design on the Republican side.

Heck, Boebert in Colorado is 10x more of an embarrassment than any single one of our national leadership and Colorado is a 'liberal mecca' - I don't think she is scaring off investment in Colorado lol. Same reason Lankford or any of our other embarrassments aren't either. Colorado wasn't that different than Oklahoma back 20 years ago until Denver exploded in population and shifted the entire state from red, to purple, to now mostly solid blue. How was Denver able to recruit so many to move there even with crazy leadership back in the day? If someone really wanted to California, Seattle, etc. were all way more liberal and offered mountains and ocean. Denver built a massive airport and made major investments in infrastructure, universities, etc. and look at where they are now. The amount of people that lived in the front range back then wasn't bigger than the I-44/412 corridor from OKC-Tulsa-NWA now. Denver just decided it was going to be the hub of the region, and until Tulsa decides to get off it's donkey and be the hub and make investments we are just going to keep getting passed by and have OKC/NWA eat our lunch with the group who are willing to invest in this region. 

Corporate America does not care about politics what so ever. If they did, why are they still donating so much to the Republican party? Toyota is one of the biggest donors to the insurrections now and they're HQed in Plano. You think they care? Nope. So our politics didn't scare Toyota USA HQ away from Oklahoma I can assure you that. They definitely didn't pick Plano or Dallas because it's some liberal mecca either. There is a specific recruitment team in Collin County that goes to California and other states to tell CEO's about Jesus and how Collin County has the best churches and is God's suburban paradise - I'm not joking. Yet if something like that happened in Oklahoma people who claim it's running off business investment. It's not.

Our issues are not political no matter how embarrassing they are in this state. Until we focus on the issues that are actually causing us to get passed over we'll be stuck in the same spot for another decade or two.  


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on July 15, 2022, 01:11:32 pm
^ Good points.  As I said before Tulsa needs to just keep investing in the things we are already investing in to keep the momentum that has already been building and we’ll land one of these big developments.   


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 15, 2022, 07:45:09 pm
I get people feel this way... but I mean come on do you really think Oklahoma is that much worse than say Kansas? What about Arkansas, Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, Alabama, etc. You think Huckabee is going to be less embarrassing than Stitt? Frankly I'd take Stitt over her any day, he at least runs a business even though he's corrupt. I think this election cycle's races in Oklahoma are going to be closer than many think and I hope Dems/Ind. actually go vote and we get someone like Joy, etc. in as leadership to counter the legislature a bit. People just need to stop bemoaning themselves and go vote.  


I still believe the biggest barrier to Tulsa succeeding is the mindset of not thinking big enough and general apathy amongst our population. We market ourselves poorly and we are not aggressive enough in business recruitment. That is 100% of the reason we are getting passed over.

Frankly it wouldn't take very long for Oklahoma to become a battle ground state if we could land a handful of good corporate expansions. The Dem/Independent voter difference to Republicans is not as large as many would think, it's just than voter turnout and excitement especially for non-Republicans is awful. That's been by design on the Republican side.


Corporate America does not care about politics what so ever. If they did, why are they still donating so much to the Republican party? Toyota is one of the biggest donors to the insurrections now and they're HQed in Plano. You think they care? Nope. So our politics didn't scare Toyota USA HQ away from Oklahoma I can assure you that. They definitely didn't pick Plano or Dallas because it's some liberal mecca either. There is a specific recruitment team in Collin County that goes to California and other states to tell CEO's about Jesus and how Collin County has the best churches and is God's suburban paradise - I'm not joking. Yet if something like that happened in Oklahoma people who claim it's running off business investment. It's not.




The reasons we don't do better is because we choose NOT to do better!

In no particular order;

Education
Infrastructure
Health

And we are ALWAYS at the bottom on all of them.  No matter what.



Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Red Arrow on July 15, 2022, 10:46:06 pm
Maybe Oklahoma would do better if Gov Stitt made advertisements for sleep medicine.




Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: Red Arrow on July 15, 2022, 11:00:00 pm
Ronald Reagan said he didn't leave the Democratic Party, the Democratic Party left him.  I am kind of feeling the same way about the Republican Party, at least in this part of the USA.




Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 15, 2022, 11:44:01 pm


The reasons we don't do better is because we choose NOT to do better!

In no particular order;

Education
Infrastructure
Health

And we are ALWAYS at the bottom on all of them.  No matter what.



Infrastructure I feel is probably one of the biggest followed closely by education.

2 things Texas has done that helped separate Dallas from places like Tulsa and other competition back decades ago.

Establishing dedicated funding through oil revenues for the universities. A&M and UT are what they are because of that, if OSU and OU had that type of dedicated funding we would have a gold mine of talent coming through the state.

They made key infrastructure investments with things like hub airports. They are now on the verge of having the first privately operated high-speed rail system in the US. Their highway and other infrastructure investments have been above and beyond other states. However, they are sitting on a massive debt bomb because of this, that if they have any hick-up in growth over the next decade or two could likely lead them into bankruptcy without massive tax increases.

The two together were the backbone to positioning them as a top tier business relocation state. Obviously the addition of no income tax and other factors play a role too but you can have all the incentives and other BS you want, but if you don't have the infrastructure to support the business or people to support the business the rest is irrelevant.

OU Poly I think could be a game changer for Tulsa long-term. OSU I hope follows with a similar tech focused campus in Tulsa. Build out more grad school programs.

We have got to figure out how to get more direct flights into TUL. Why not have a master plan for a major expansion of TUL and go recruit an airline like Frontier or something to make TUL a hub or focus city. Frontier is kind of like an unwanted third wheel at Denver, why not incentivize them to move here? Throw everything in the dang book at them. Or go after JetBlue, etc. - someone who is operating at hubs that are well over capacity already and have majors already taking up most of the resources at the hub that could use a middle America presence. The majority of passengers who fly through Denver are no locals and not people visiting Colorado. Same with Salt Lake, etc. They are hubs because they made the investment in the facilities to be one. The entire Salt Lake region is a lot smaller than the OKC-Tulsa-NWA region. 

Why our city leadership allows AA to take advantage of us and then not even make them increase air service here is our biggest wasted opportunity infrastructure wise. We should at least require them as part of a lease agreement to maintain flights to every single on of their hubs. Why do we not have direct service to Miami, etc.? And for as much money as we give them and they can't give us 1-2 flights a day to all their hubs/focus cities? Give me a break. This is weak leadership from the city thinking we don't deserve or can't ask for things like this because we should just gravel and be thankful they are even here.

Also, for everything I've said I do think we should hold the Republican's feet to the fire. They do have fault in this for being lazy and not prioritizing economic development. They waited way too long to pass our economic packages because they were wasting time with other bills they didn't need to be doing and most of those were purely 'political' bills. The Kansas legislature passed their economics package first thing then moved on to the crazy stuff while we did the opposite. We did piss Panasonic off to the point Stitt had to have that press conference and force the legislature to get off their as* and pass it. I think that was the moment in time we lost the deal when that took so long and as soon as that finally passed a lawsuit was filed over the TIF. Their board needed to make an announcement on location and if we had taken care of business when the legislature first went into sessions we might be looking at a very different situation. But that goes back to the point that Oklahoma never has taken economic development seriously while our neighbors prioritize it and then circle back to the crazy shi*.

I hate to see some many people who love Tulsa get so frustrated and want to leave. I hope people don't, it just makes it worse. If more people stick around and advocate for things the better off we are. Just keep states like Colorado in mind, it's not impossible to change the dynamics of this state. We have to get rid of apathy and get people engaged. It wouldn't take much of an uptick in population growth between both OKC and Tulsa to switch the politics of the state - it really wasn't that long ago that we have a Democrat as a Governor. OKC used to be one of the most conservative bigger cities in the US and that is no where near the case anymore, and a lot of that comes down to population growth over the last 10-15 years that has really changed the political dynamics of that area. The more people that leave and give up the worse it gets, I know it sucks and is frustrating but that's what they are hoping happens - don't let it.    


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on July 16, 2022, 03:51:35 pm
^ Agree with AA, though they have stepped it up recently at TUL.  Nonstop flights to DFW, Austin, Phoenix, Los Angeles, Chicago, Charlotte, Washington DC and Miami (Sat only).  Starting New York LGA this November.  The only hub they won’t serve is Philadelphia.  Could use more frequency though.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: tulsabug on July 16, 2022, 07:53:46 pm
Oh look - went to get a replacement social security card online but just found out Oklahoma hasn't linked their driver's license database to the Feds. Oklahoma is only one of 7 states that hasn't done it. Texas, Kansas, & Missouri have. Heck - every state in the South except Alabama has but no, not "ain't gonna tell me what to do" Oklahoma. Every time I've had to deal with the state for our business I've found they are disorganized, confused, behind the times, and generally apathetic to being professional. They're right on the ball with serving the religious right but for businesses they're worthless. I can't imagine Panasonic, who really needed a well-functioning bureaucracy to deal with all the issues of building a large factory here was remotely impressed with the amateur hour they ran into. Now - I don't have any proof of this - just extrapolating from my own experience but I'm willing to bet we can tag that on to the list of reasons Oklahoma gets overlooked.


Title: Re: Massive new car factory for Pryor
Post by: SXSW on July 16, 2022, 08:25:49 pm
That didn’t seem to dissuade Google from investing billions of dollars in Oklahoma.  But I do think we all agree the state (and Tulsa) could do better in economic development and general sophistication.  Tulsa finally has a team dedicated to it which is a welcome change.  Both need to have better social media presence.  David Holt, the OKC Mayor, is well liked by Democrats and Republicans and does a fantastic job promoting OKC on social media.  GT Bynum, Arthur Jackson, David Stewart/MAIP, et al need to be constantly promoting on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc