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Author Topic: Downtown Development Overview  (Read 1009147 times)
erfalf
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« Reply #450 on: February 03, 2016, 08:59:01 am »

I would imagine it would nearly be inverse here. Rents downtown I would guess start around $1.50/sq/ft/month. $1,000 for about 700 sq ft sounds about right if not on the low. It obviously goes up from there. To equate to commercial space that is $18/sf. That's topping out in most cases for most buildings downtown I would think. I understand what you are saying, but the dynamics in Tulsa are no where near that scanario. In Bartlesville it's even more exacerbated. I remember several years ago they couldn't find takers for downtown commercial space @ $7/sf on the main street. At the same time residential space above those same spaces were going for over $12/sf. There seems to be a far greater demand for residential space downtown than commercial it would seem. Hopefully that bodes well for both communities.

I hate to quote myself, but I just wanted to expand somewhat. The most recent development in downtown Bartlesville is the renovation of an old two store commercial building. It will include both commercial downstairs and residential up. BUT nearly 30% of the first floor will be residential as well. So in effect, the developers are trying to maximize residential space (higher returns) and making the commercial spaces much smaller, which also seems to be a vary desired trait in our area. Many businesses cannot afford to rent 2,000 + square feet, but they can handle 500 and it's really better for them anyway.

This is just a further illustration that residential is in higher demand downtown than commercial. Again, this can be a good thing. More rooftops downtown will lead to more demand for retail and services in the end.

And on the mall front. William (correctly) keeps pointing out that a slew of retail in a focused area is a necessity. Which is exactly what a mall is (minus acres of parking lots). If we could just divorce the two and make it a new age mall what is the problem with that. Think Southlake Square or any other modern mall. Or is that not something that could be worked into the framework of an existing downtown. I am being serious. Aside from the obvious issue of it being nearly impossible to acquire the amount of contiguous land to make something like that happen, what about this is bad for a truly urban area?

I will certainly agree that Tulsa seems to have a disjointed development pattern. Hopefully in the future it will all come together. Of course part of me likes having all the unique districts. New York has the same. There are stretches (even in Manhattan) that are more residential in nature and far less of a draw to the shopper in between the high impact shopping areas. It doesn't mean those areas are any less important. But for Tulsa (specifically inside the IDL) even the different districts seem to be sort of all over the place. There isn't a Cherry Street/Brookside going through any one of them, stuff is spread all over. Is this good or bad?
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #451 on: February 03, 2016, 09:06:05 am »

I would imagine it would nearly be inverse here. Rents downtown I would guess start around $1.50/sq/ft/month. $1,000 for about 700 sq ft sounds about right if not on the low. It obviously goes up from there. To equate to commercial space that is $18/sf. That's topping out in most cases for most buildings downtown I would think. I understand what you are saying, but the dynamics in Tulsa are no where near that scanario. In Bartlesville it's even more exacerbated. I remember several years ago they couldn't find takers for downtown commercial space @ $7/sf on the main street. At the same time residential space above those same spaces were going for over $12/sf. There seems to be a far greater demand for residential space downtown than commercial it would seem. Hopefully that bodes well for both communities.

In that case, I'm not sure Tulsa's downtown is ready for the additional 80,000 ft2 of retail Santa Fe Square would provide, especially considering that the developer is charging near the top of the market per sq ft for the Boxyard. Yes, it will be a couple years before it is built anyway, but still. The hotel and residential would be great right there. Eventually, it would help anchor the Blue Dome as a shopping hub (with the Boxyard, Indian Store, Fleet Feet, whatever replaces Dwelling Spaces).

I was looking at numbers and $2/ft2/month probably wouldn't be feasible for Santa Fe Square if it costs $200 million. The loan repayment (assuming a typical current mortgage interest which is unrealistically low) would make the payment $1,280,000/mo. You would need $2.13/ft2 average from the 600,000 ft2 to break even (The hotel could make up quite a bit of that in terms of high revenue per sq ft, but 105 rooms is only ~30-40k sq feet). The parking garage would bring in some good cash too - lets say $100/spot for 1000 spaces, so $100k/mo. With the hotel operating at full capacity and the parking garage, they would need $1.54/sq ft/mo. from the remaining ~540,000 sq ft to break even which sounds more realistic, but no profit margin. I think this size of development would still demand $2/ft2 for the other areas to get a respectable profit margins and pay the interest which I drastically underestimated. It would be tough to get $2/ft2 from residential and sounds like currently retail would be tough at that too.

I am guessing they will be planning on getting ~$30/sq-ft/year for retail and selling it as a breakthrough/visionary urban mall with capacity to draw huge crowds. That would be awesome if they can pull it off, even if it was in stages.
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TheArtist
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« Reply #452 on: February 03, 2016, 05:57:28 pm »

I hate to quote myself, but I just wanted to expand somewhat. The most recent development in downtown Bartlesville is the renovation of an old two store commercial building. It will include both commercial downstairs and residential up. BUT nearly 30% of the first floor will be residential as well. So in effect, the developers are trying to maximize residential space (higher returns) and making the commercial spaces much smaller, which also seems to be a vary desired trait in our area. Many businesses cannot afford to rent 2,000 + square feet, but they can handle 500 and it's really better for them anyway.

This is just a further illustration that residential is in higher demand downtown than commercial. Again, this can be a good thing. More rooftops downtown will lead to more demand for retail and services in the end.

And on the mall front. William (correctly) keeps pointing out that a slew of retail in a focused area is a necessity. Which is exactly what a mall is (minus acres of parking lots). If we could just divorce the two and make it a new age mall what is the problem with that. Think Southlake Square or any other modern mall. Or is that not something that could be worked into the framework of an existing downtown. I am being serious. Aside from the obvious issue of it being nearly impossible to acquire the amount of contiguous land to make something like that happen, what about this is bad for a truly urban area?

I will certainly agree that Tulsa seems to have a disjointed development pattern. Hopefully in the future it will all come together. Of course part of me likes having all the unique districts. New York has the same. There are stretches (even in Manhattan) that are more residential in nature and far less of a draw to the shopper in between the high impact shopping areas. It doesn't mean those areas are any less important. But for Tulsa (specifically inside the IDL) even the different districts seem to be sort of all over the place. There isn't a Cherry Street/Brookside going through any one of them, stuff is spread all over. Is this good or bad?

There is nothing wrong with having a "roof over your shopping" downtown versus not, as long as its connected to the rest of the fabric of the downtown, aka the pedestrian parts that do not have a roof over it. The Williams Center was and would be the opposite of that. It was a horrible design to begin with and I don't see how your could fix it.

You also seem to acknowledge that having a slew of retail in a focused area would be helpful for retail, but then wonder if having "stuff spread all over" is good or bad?  

I look at the 3rd street area with its small cluster of shops and am noticing all the residential now going in around it.  That small strip of retail/restaurant may get cut off and left behind.  I have seen small strips like that in many many other cities around the world and the businesses there more often than not end up being the little neighborhood places that barely eek out a survival.  Some may be great, but if you want to grow as a business you know you will need to move.  Especially if we do end up getting a good concentration of shops somewhere that then becomes a bustling draw.  If that 3rd street strip had grown with developments next to it that had more retail on the ground floor versus living or office, then you would see those businesses already there doing better and better as the area grew.  As it is the more isolated it gets, the more, well, isolated the businesses will get and the more they will struggle as another area grows.  Problem is, we can only hope that at least one area downtown will get that "critical mass" of shopping in order to become a healthy retail corridor that will then be able to be attractive enough to grow organically on its own.  Right now there is no area you can look at downtown that you could say, yes thats a great place to put a store.  Uness you are a big box store or the kind of store that is an attraction in and of itself.  Then once that went in, other spaces next to it would be more viable to be turned into retail spots. 
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 06:01:31 pm by TheArtist » Logged

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PonderInc
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« Reply #453 on: February 04, 2016, 09:36:42 am »

The most recent development in downtown Bartlesville is the renovation of an old two store commercial building. It will include both commercial downstairs and residential up. BUT nearly 30% of the first floor will be residential as well. So in effect, the developers are trying to maximize residential space (higher returns) and making the commercial spaces much smaller, which also seems to be a vary desired trait in our area.
They may also want residential on the ground floor due to ADA requirements.  Depending on how many units they have, putting residential on the ground floor allows you to provide accessible units without installing elevators, etc to make the upper units ADA compliant.  I'm not sure if the ADA requirement for % of accessible residential applies when you're converting an old building, but I'm pretty sure it applies when you're building new ones if you exceed a certain number of units.
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erfalf
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« Reply #454 on: February 04, 2016, 11:42:09 am »

They may also want residential on the ground floor due to ADA requirements.  Depending on how many units they have, putting residential on the ground floor allows you to provide accessible units without installing elevators, etc to make the upper units ADA compliant.  I'm not sure if the ADA requirement for % of accessible residential applies when you're converting an old building, but I'm pretty sure it applies when you're building new ones if you exceed a certain number of units.

Possibly. I have only noticed the ground floor residential on the most recent proposed developments. About ten years ago a couple of old buildings were rehabbed. Apartments were made out of the 2nd and 3rd floors of these two buildings (12 & 6 units in each) but the entire ground floor of each was commercial. There is no elevator in either building that I am aware of. Could the policies have changed in that time frame? And is this a city policy or federal?
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erfalf
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« Reply #455 on: February 04, 2016, 11:55:12 am »

You also seem to acknowledge that having a slew of retail in a focused area would be helpful for retail, but then wonder if having "stuff spread all over" is good or bad?  

Well, what I meant was (relating to your A street B street theories) that even with Brady or Blue Dome, there doesn't seem to be a focused development pattern around a "main street" so to speak. BUT after taking a moment to really look again, it seems that there is a bit of pattern. They all have a main North South and East West street. For example:

Brady - Main & Brady appears to the the epicenter of the area and consumer focused development seems to front those two streets.
Blue Dome - Because of one ways, there are three main streets. Elgin & 1st & 2nd.
CBD - Again one ways, Main & Boston and 5th.

I do think it is good to have multiple areas. They all have different personalities. It increases the odds of someone finding a home in one. And to that end the new residents spending will spill into the other districts, not just their own.
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« Reply #456 on: February 05, 2016, 12:07:05 pm »

Does anyone know what is going in the old Mason's place in the Brady? They're finally removing stuff after the bar sat closed for a couple months. The location has a nice patio but it's hard to sit there with the people puffing on their cigars next door.
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Tulsasaurus Rex
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« Reply #457 on: February 05, 2016, 02:29:47 pm »

Does anyone know what is going in the old Mason's place in the Brady? They're finally removing stuff after the bar sat closed for a couple months. The location has a nice patio but it's hard to sit there with the people puffing on their cigars next door.

Did they close? Not open very long.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #458 on: February 05, 2016, 03:32:00 pm »

Did they close? Not open very long.

They were there a couple years and I am surprised it lasted that long. They originally sold Masons as a sports bar. "Great!" I thought, "Just what downtown needs!" I gave it multiple shots, but the food was bad and the beer selection was awful and we thought they made lousy mixed drinks as well (the whole trifecta!). They served me cold wings and it took a long time. Furthermore, the atmosphere was lacking and it was always mostly empty. Lots of wasted space and most the TVs were not on sports, even during a big football game day. Then I went there about a year ago and they said they hadn't had food in a long time. How is it a sports bar if they don't have food? 

If they would've just had a mediocre sports bar, they would've done great. It was awful and everything they did, they did poorly or completely failed to do.

Now Leftys has been great every time I've been there. It is on the opposite end of the spectrum: Plenty of TVs with sports on, amazing atmosphere, really good food and their mixed drinks were good also.
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DowntownDan
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« Reply #459 on: February 05, 2016, 04:24:46 pm »

They were there a couple years and I am surprised it lasted that long. They originally sold Masons as a sports bar. "Great!" I thought, "Just what downtown needs!" I gave it multiple shots, but the food was bad and the beer selection was awful and we thought they made lousy mixed drinks as well (the whole trifecta!). They served me cold wings and it took a long time. Furthermore, the atmosphere was lacking and it was always mostly empty. Lots of wasted space and most the TVs were not on sports, even during a big football game day. Then I went there about a year ago and they said they hadn't had food in a long time. How is it a sports bar if they don't have food? 

If they would've just had a mediocre sports bar, they would've done great. It was awful and everything they did, they did poorly or completely failed to do.

Now Leftys has been great every time I've been there. It is on the opposite end of the spectrum: Plenty of TVs with sports on, amazing atmosphere, really good food and their mixed drinks were good also.

I never had the food, but I had the same experience otherwise the two times I went there.  The beer selection sucked, and it wasn't a sports bar.  They had a guy playing vinyl records and they had a tv or two and I don't remember if sports were on.  It had no identity whatsoever.  If you're gonna be a sports bar, be a sports bar.  If you're gonna be something else, be something else.  And beer selection is kind of a big deal these days.  It's a great spot and will do well with the right people in charge.
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« Reply #460 on: February 05, 2016, 05:12:40 pm »

Lefty's wasn't going to be a sports bar either but I think they are seeing the light.......
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« Reply #461 on: February 06, 2016, 09:26:31 am »

Lefty's wasn't going to be a sports bar either but I think they are seeing the light.......
Since when were they not going to be a sports bar?  http://www.tulsaworld.com/businesshomepage1/lefty-s-bar-and-restaurant-to-debut-soon-in-downtown/article_13490281-3104-5d8a-a99c-d34c3c406cb2.html
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Conan71
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« Reply #462 on: February 06, 2016, 02:05:58 pm »

I must have hit Lefty’s on an off day.  Their breaded pork sandwich was really dreadful.
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« Reply #463 on: February 08, 2016, 08:17:43 am »

Did they close? Not open very long.

The few times that I went we were the only people there and it was clear that the bartender didn't really want us there either.
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PonderInc
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« Reply #464 on: February 09, 2016, 02:27:58 pm »

I must have hit Lefty’s on an off day.  Their breaded pork sandwich was really dreadful.
I eat at Lefty's fairly often, and I think it has some of the best "bar food" downtown. I haven't had the breaded pork, but I've been happy with everything from salmon to salads to hot wings.

I also love the diverse clientele, which is something to treasure in Tulsa. 
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