Downtown Development Overview

[Tulsasaurus Rex]

which bldg is this?

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1534303,-95.9924955,3a,75y,245.1h,98.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suQXMktpqFqm9koadSbvTww!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

[DowntownDan]

They don't have to

If it can be done uniquely and creatively, it could be a really neat connector.

[BKDotCom]

They don't have to

I found a
Sept 2015 photo  and it's still holding up.    It does have a "chain link" type fence (square mesh as opposed to diagonal mesh)..  just hard to see in the glamour shot.

[cannon_fodder]

You will note there is no one on that bridge in that photo. Nor is there anyone on the bridge from the Google maps from the north side. Or from the south side. In fact, run a google search for the Rider Way Pedestrian Bridge, or just Des Moines I-235 pedestrian bridge... and try to find people on them. It is much like finding someone on any of the I-244 pedestrian bridges - rare.

At $3,000,000.00 I'm confident that the bridge would never pay for itself with a $1 toll, even with a school on the other side of the highway from a nice neighborhood. 

Waiting for the train to get to a baseball game is a mild annoyance sometimes, but a 10 minute one if you're too lazy to walk over to the Cinci bridge. It just doesn't make sense to spend $3mil to take care of a problem that barely exists, IMO.

[carltonplace]

I'm not saying we need a pedestrian bridge at Elgin...of course we don't. I was just responding to that bridges don't need to be fugly. We just choose to build them that way.

[Conan71]

Michael Overall's opinion on what is still needed downtown. Sounds like a TNF lurker. 

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/michael-overall-things-downtown-tulsa-still-needs/article_a2fb2019-e95d-5524-9c8a-078ea1fd3f7c.html

Michael Overall: 3 things downtown Tulsa still needs

Watching downtown revitalization is kind of like finding gray hairs in the mirror. If you had told me 10 years ago that I'd be seeing so much of it, I wouldn't have believed it.

I knew, of course, it was bound to happen. Eventually. But not so soon. Not so fast.

Don't get me wrong. I'm very happy about it. The revitalization, I mean. But it takes some getting used to, after putting so much time and energy into complaining about downtown. It was virtually a hobby of mine — a day just didn't feel complete without some snide remark about tumbleweeds outnumbering pedestrians on Main Street, or passing a vacant Art Deco masterpiece and mentioning what a great parking lot it was going to make someday.

I miss that thrill of self-righteous indignation. So for old time's sake, let me suggest a few things that, despite all the progress, downtown still doesn't have.

I won't mention a brew pub, because we have not one but two set to open soon in the Brady District. And a grocery store appears to be on the horizon. I'm talking about things that still seem hopelessly far off. Although who knows what Tulsa will see when it looks in the mirror 10 years from now.

1. A third convention-sized hotel: The Tulsa World recently counted no fewer than five hotel projects under construction or in the advanced stages of planning. But we'll still be left with only two that have more than 400 rooms, the magic number for attracting business conventions. Tourism officials believe we could support a third one and that it would make Tulsa an attractive option for bigger events.

2. Affordable family housing: Downtown Tulsa will have more than 2,100 housing units by the end of this year, according to a recent estimate from the Downtown Coordinating Council. But the vast majority of apartments are either too small or too expensive for the average family. The age demographic pretty much skips straight from young and single to retired empty-nesters. It's time to share downtown with the rest of us.

3. Retail shopping: Yes, there is some shopping already, and more on the way — most notably at the upcoming Boxyard development at Third Street and Frankfort Avenue. But most of these retailers are hoping to capture foot traffic from people who have come downtown for something else — maybe for work or for dinner or for a concert. Downtown is a long way from competing with Utica Square or Brookside as a destination for shoppers.

It will happen. Eventually. I just hope I'm not totally gray by then.

michael.overall@tulsaworld.com

[DowntownDan]

A series of smaller parks ("pocket parks") downtown also would be big if family living is being pursued.  The only problem with having kids in an urban setting is lack of your own yard.  Would be nice to go a block or two for kids to have grass to play on during the week.  Maybe Guthrie Green is good enough, but something closer to the new apartments in Blue Dome District would be nice.

[carltonplace]

We've been saying these same things true...but he missed our need for a real transportation option in downtown. The ridiculous weekend MTTA party bus does not fulfill our need. If we can create a park and ride solution then the surface parking lots can become a thing of the past.

SantaFe Square should bring a lot of retail options right?
I'd like to see some basic retail needs filled with an urban Target or other home store for downtown dwellers.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

We've been saying these same things true...but he missed our need for a real transportation option in downtown. The ridiculous weekend MTTA party bus does not fulfill our need. If we can create a park and ride solution then the surface parking lots can become a thing of the past.

SantaFe Square should bring a lot of retail options right?
I'd like to see some basic retail needs filled with an urban Target or other home store for downtown dwellers.

Santa Fe Square should add more retail to make it more of a destination/retail hub if they succeed. However, didn't the BOK tower used to be somewhat of a mall back when they had the ice skating rink and it all declined and went under after the 80's oil bust and now is still mostly empty? If there is a demand to put a lot of retail downtown (enough to justify the $200+ million Santa Fe Square development), why wouldn't the BOK tower work? Tons of empty retail/office space downtown as-is. Existing parking garage which is under-utilized during weekends and within a few blocks of many of the new apartments going in.

I can understand the Boxyard (Cheaper and more versatile to allow for unique startups, similar to the "Made"/pop-up stores at 5th and Boston) and on a scale which fits the area right now. Santa Fe Square looks great and would definitely improve the walkability of the area. I wonder if it is too much for the near future.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

We've been saying these same things true...but he missed our need for a real transportation option in downtown. The ridiculous weekend MTTA party bus does not fulfill our need. If we can create a park and ride solution then the surface parking lots can become a thing of the past.

I wonder if the center of the universe hub and transit will help with this. More funds for public transit should help with this.

It would be great if downtowners could rely on a shuttle being at the stop at 4th and Boston at 11am sharp which could bring them to Guthrie Green and then know it will be at the park at 11:55pm to go back. Even better if they could rely on that to go to Cherry St or Brookside.

Also, there is a bicycle-share program coming to Tulsa (11 kiosks to start near key parts in and near downtown with plans to expand).

[Conan71]

Santa Fe Square should add more retail to make it more of a destination/retail hub if they succeed. However, didn't the BOK tower used to be somewhat of a mall back when they had the ice skating rink and it all declined and went under after the 80's oil bust and now is still mostly empty? If there is a demand to put a lot of retail downtown (enough to justify the $200+ million Santa Fe Square development), why wouldn't the BOK tower work? Tons of empty retail/office space downtown as-is. Existing parking garage which is under-utilized during weekends and within a few blocks of many of the new apartments going in.

I can understand the Boxyard (Cheaper and more versatile to allow for unique startups, similar to the "Made"/pop-up stores at 5th and Boston) and on a scale which fits the area right now. Santa Fe Square looks great and would definitely improve the walkability of the area. I wonder if it is too much for the near future.

I was told the old skating rink and mall area was turned into office/tech space.  No idea if that is correct or not.  The rink managed to hang on into the 1990's, I don't recall though when it finally closed.

Downtown was pretty much at the pit of its decline in the late 1970's/early 1980's when the Williams Forum opened.  Seems like they also had a movie theater there.

It was a great idea which was either 35 years after or before it's time.

[Dspike]

The World had a great nostalgia piece on the Forum last year. Covers the tenants, the movie theater, the closing, etc.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/news/throwbacktulsa/throwback-tulsa-the-forum-tried-to-lure-people-downtown-with/article_a0aa5182-7877-5a29-a584-297635ac6e26.html

[swake]

I was told the old skating rink and mall area was turned into office/tech space.  No idea if that is correct or not.  The rink managed to hang on into the 1990's, I don't recall though when it finally closed.

Downtown was pretty much at the pit of its decline in the late 1970's/early 1980's when the Williams Forum opened.  Seems like they also had a movie theater there.

It was a great idea which was either 35 years after or before it's time.

In high school we would drive from Booker T. to The Forum almost every day for lunch. Mazzio's had $1 slices of pizza right next to an arcade. Sometimes you could get the workers at Schlozsky's to sell you beer. There was the Williams Center Forum Cinema there. The only movie theater in town that served booze.

My wife worked there in the early 90s on the 3rd floor of The Forum in what was a men's clothing store. It was pretty strange, she was working for Wiltel right after they got bought by LDDS and they had set up cubicles in the former retail stores throughout the mall. They even left the doors into her area from when it was as store I think was called Orbach's? Big wood and brass doors and display windows leading into a cube farm. Very strange.

When LLDS (then Worldcom) moved to the Cherokee Industrial Park in the Telex building Williams ripped out the entire mall space for office space and an energy futures trading floor. There's nothing left in that building that at all resembles the mall that it started as.

[BKDotCom]

Can confirm that the former BOK tower mall and ice-skating) were converted to office space aprox 20 years ago.
It's been remodeled a handful of times since the the mall.

The former food court and ice-rink is now a cafeteria/dining, fitness center, and a credit union.   This area flooded a few years ago from a water main break..  which also knocked out power to a good chunk of downtown

Two retail stores remain from the mall days.   A Halmark store, and a Florist.

It's all somewhat "public" space.  Connected to the hotel via a sky bridge...   which connects to 302 S Boston via parking garage and tunnel...   which connects to the MidCon tower via tunnel..

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Can confirm that the former BOK tower mall and ice-skating) were converted to office space aprox 20 years ago.
It's been remodeled a handful of times since the the mall.

The former food court and ice-rink is now a cafeteria/dining, fitness center, and a credit union.   This area flooded a few years ago from a water main break..  which also knocked out power to a good chunk of downtown

Two retail stores remain from the mall days.   A Halmark store, and a Florist.

It's all somewhat "public" space.  Connected to the hotel via a sky bridge...   which connects to 302 S Boston via parking garage and tunnel...   which connects to the MidCon tower via tunnel..

Thanks for the history and info! I guess it won't really be a great option for converting back to a mall, but it still would be cheaper than a brand new $200+ million development if the owners ever wanted to diversify again. If I were them I would at least talk to some retail experts and potentially Nelson about creating destination retail downtown.

There is so much wasted potential downtown and then a lot of developments get thrown out because they are cost-prohibitive (I could see Santa Fe being scaled back substantially, especially the parking garage). Meanwhile there is still plenty of unused building space and empty lots owned by people wanting to cash in years down the line.