Shootings at The Ministry of Sound.

[YoungTulsan]

I saw this video linked in a discussion elsewhere:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TsJFEiWOi6M

Supposedly that is Kitchell at the front door while dozens of kids walk right into the side door (left side of the video).  Instead of saying he simply doesn't give a crap about it, I'm thinking this is actually his business strategy.  Being open after 2 is also part of it, since everything else closes down, everyone still out and about makes a beeline for his place.

[deinstein]

Parents Protest Downtown Club
KOTV - 2/15/2007 10:03 PM - Updated 2/15/2007 10:11 PM

About a dozen people protested in front a downtown Tulsa club Thursday evening. It is the same club, in which an 18 year old was shot in the face last weekend. He still can't see or walk. The club called 'The Ministry' has come under criticism for having kids as young as 15 in the club, well after curfew.

News On 6 crime reporter Lori Fullbright reports Thursday night was first night the club has been open since the shooting. The club manager says he plans to make 'The Ministry' an 18 and over club.

In researching the property at 514 East 2nd Street, the News On 6 learned the co-owner of the building that houses the club is a convicted sex offender.

Thursday evening, Kelly Lin and some friends, stood across from 'The Ministry,' holding up signs for about an hour. Her son, Jeremy Lin was one of about 1,400 people in the club last weekend, when customers say a fight broke out and someone fired shots. "We gotta stop businesses like this, not just one, there's more out there, no checking of ID's, no searching. If they're not searched, this is what happens," says Kelly Lin.

A Tulsa man who says he has an interest in downtown says he's concerned this club is going to have the same problems as other ones in Tulsa that have been managed by Steve Kitchell. The man is also friends with Debbie Henry. Debbie's son Scott Bolton was killed outside another Kitchell club in downtown Tulsa. A bouncer faces a manslaughter trial next week for punching Bolton, causing him to fall and hit his head.

The kids at 'The Ministry' last weekend say things were out of control. One of those teens, identified only as Keena says, "there was people smoking stuff they're not supposed to be smoking in a club, underage people drinking, too many people inside the club."

George Sabo co-owns the building that houses 'The Ministry' club. Public records show he was convicted in the late 1990's for sexually abusing his girlfriend's 8 year old daughter. He pleaded guilty, did some prison time, received counseling and is on probation. He is not allowed to have unsupervised contact with anyone under 18. Tulsa Police say it's legal for him to own the building and would be legal for him to be in the club, if he chose to. Records say Sabo told investigators the abuse was an isolated incident and records show he's had no charges of any kind since.

A Tulsa radio station, 92.1 has been doing live remotes at 'The Ministry' every Thursday for the past month, but the station told the News On 6; the club called and canceled them for the foreseeable future. They said they didn't know why, but say that type of thing is fairly common.

[Conan71]

"News On 6 crime reporter Lori Fullbright reports Thursday night was first night the club has been open since the shooting. The club manager says he plans to make 'The Ministry' an 18 and over club."

That really doesn't change the dynamic and likely wouldn't have stopped this shooting unless the perp was under 18.

If beer is being served, and food isn't, there is no point in allowing anyone in under 18.  I can say for certain that when I was under 21 and drinking it wasn't for the taste- it was to get smashed.  I don't think It's any different with teens these days either.  At least for most people, they do become more responsible with their drinking as they get older and wiser.  I'd also suspect drug use is pretty common around places like the Ministry.

Any denial of that by Kitchell would be like the old SNL skit with John Belushi where he plays the manager of Studio 54 and is being asked about cocaine use there.  "Uh, no sir, I don't know a thing about that, must be coming in under our noses."  As he wipes some white powder off his top lip.

[D]

The Police Officer that was at the Ministry that night replied. Good points....


http://www.tulsapolice.org/tpdblog.htm

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by D

The Police Officer that was at the Ministry that night replied. Good points....


http://www.tulsapolice.org/tpdblog.htm

Straight shootin' from officer Jay.[]

[D]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by D

The Police Officer that was at the Ministry that night replied. Good points....


http://www.tulsapolice.org/tpdblog.htm

Straight shootin' from officer Jay.[]

Good Stuff. I'm suprised they let him say it!

[patric]

(TULSA, Okla.) February 19 Extra Tulsa Police are out tonight targeting a certain area downtown to make sure there isn't a repeat of last weekend. Police say two teenagers were shot inside The Ministry near 2nd and Greenwood early Sunday morning. One of those victims still remains hospitalized. Every year the Tulsa Police Department gets a justice block grant. They use the money to pay a group of officers overtime to patrol what they feel are problem areas. This weekend their target is The Ministry. Four officers and a supervisor will patrol the area looking for any traffic violations like drunk drivers, and will also keep an eye out for public intoxication. Police say seeing more officers can cut down on crime
http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=1fe068b7-2343-4e5e-ac8a-0c8f58589160


Im in no way defending the nightclub here, but does it seem like were being asked to forget that there was already a significant police presence the night of the shooting?

http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=120312
"I'm within 10 feet of the door when the gunshot goes off."
Corporal (Dan) Miller says officers were inside the crowded club about an hour earlier.
"The officers went in to go around and make sure there's no trouble," Miller said. "Didn't see anything obvious, so after everything looked good they went ahead and left."

[Shoplifting Instructor]

The city ordinance on curfews should have kept most of these youths home. The curfews help to reduce the incidence of juveniles becoming victims by preventing "gathering," which also means more calls for the police.

It also compels parents to be more responsible and gives them a specific reason to tell their children they cannot be out after a certain time. It is a good prevention tool, keeping the good kids good and keeping the at-risk kids from becoming victims or victimizers.

My kids know  the city ordinances on all status offenses because I enforce them all.  Not just parents, but any adult should report offenses when they see them. Kids that smoke, drink, skip school, run away, curfew violation, etc. need to know we are watching them.  Not saying anything enables them to become heavily involved in breaking the law later for serious crimes.

[chiari8812]

As a citizen, I wanted to point out a response from a Tulsa Police officer about the shooting on the Tulsa Police Weblog:

http://tpdblog.typepad.com/tpdblog/2007/02/theres_been_a_l.html

While there's been some good debate, maybe it's time to take the next step and start putting some thoughts into action. Isn't that part of the original spirit of TulsaNow?

Please let me know what you think...

[chiari8812]

Sorry, my last reply got cut off...

I mean to say that TulsaNow, as I am aware, started   due to a problem and a sense of urgency to do something about it. It would be great if TulsaNow spear-headed this cause as well.

And as I said before elsewhere, I'll bring the lasagna. ;-)

[Porky]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

I saw this video linked in a discussion elsewhere:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TsJFEiWOi6M

Supposedly that is Kitchell at the front door while dozens of kids walk right into the side door (left side of the video).  Instead of saying he simply doesn't give a crap about it, I'm thinking this is actually his business strategy.  Being open after 2 is also part of it, since everything else closes down, everyone still out and about makes a beeline for his place.

Thanks for the video, it shows quite well what these clubs are all about.

Years back there was another teenage club in Tulsa called Sharks. The lady that ran it had ran adult bars all of her life. She told me she was getting out of the teenage club business because it was absolutely the worse of running clubs.

[deinstein]

I really disagree with a lot of Officer Jay's points...but, whatever.

When someone wants to shoot someone, the last thing they give a damn about is what exactly the law is...that is the most moot point.

How about we try preventing these situations instead of just reacting to them?

[YoungTulsan]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

I really disagree with a lot of Officer Jay's points...but, whatever.

When someone wants to shoot someone, the last thing they give a damn about is what exactly the law is...that is the most moot point.

How about we try preventing these situations instead of just reacting to them?

On a personal level with a specific person, I agree with you.  But in dealing with the masses, things really do tend to have an ability to be manipulated.  A simple change, compounded over time, can have a profound average effect over the masses.  If you are looking at a specific hardened thug, he probably wouldn't give a crap if the penalty for a crime was increased, but these things spread across town via word of mouth can have an effect, especially on potential future criminals, due to the mathemetical effect that such penalties can have on the masses.  It is cold and heartless, but math can be applied to human behavior.

[chiari8812]

Math as a weapon. Classic!

Thanks for stressing the point I was trying to make: i.e., get tough laws, get the word out, and precipitate some fear.

I replied to Deinstien's comments on the TPD blog:

http://tpdblog.typepad.com/tpdblog/2007/02/theres_been_a_l.html

Hopefully, this time I was a bit more clear about how laws can help deter crime.

At the least, you can't say TPD isn't listening to concerned citizens in the blogosphere.

[D]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

I really disagree with a lot of Officer Jay's points...but, whatever.

When someone wants to shoot someone, the last thing they give a damn about is what exactly the law is...that is the most moot point.

How about we try preventing these situations instead of just reacting to them?

I agree that shooters don't care about the law. An obvious conclusion. I would rather find a way to keep kids out of dance clubs where drinking adults are shooting at each other. Is that not the point?

So Officer Jay says change the law....in the world of liquor licensing, keeping kids out is a big deal. We need to close the "beverage" loophole that allows kids in these places....isn't that what the Officer is saying?