Shootings at The Ministry of Sound.

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

Maybe I missed it, but on top of the fact the club was letting underaged people in, why does a mother let her 15yr old go club-hopping at 2am?

Some parents like to use nightclubs for babysitters, don't ya know? [:O]

I think the parents or guardians of the underage patrons are the real ones to blame here.  When I was 15, I was home and in bed by 10:30 PM every night.  I know times have changed, but the parents are still responsible for their minor children.  If it can be shown that the bar owner/staff knowingly and willfully allowed minors in violation of laws, then they share the blame with the parents 50/50.

[Steve]

What kind of place is this Ministry of Sound?  Is it a live music venue?  I had never heard of it until this shooting incident hit the fan.

I have only been in one Kitchell club, the Majestic.  They also have a similar 18-20 policy on Sunday nights I believe.  18-20 are allowed in until midnite, when it becomes 21+ only.  How this admission policy can be efficiently enforced is beyond me, especially when you have a dark club full of 500+ people, music blaring, etc.  I know of no violence or trouble at Majectic, but it is probably only a matter of time.

[USRufnex]

Is The Ministry of Sound part of the Blue Dome TIF district?

Just asking.

[waterboy]

[quote

I saw one of the parents on the 6 in the Morning news, and while I do feel sympathy for her, I cannot help but wonder if she knew her child was entering an 18-and-over nightclub downtown. That is something I would never allow a loved one to do.

[/quote]

I just saw the mother on Ch 6 news too. She didn't know her sons were at a club. They were supposed to be staying at a friends house. Kids slip under the radar no matter how hard you try.

I went to a Key Club convention in Dallas when I was that age. A Kiwanis highschool business club. Somehow I ended up in a club with strippers and gangsters (it had been owned by Jack Ruby). The guy at the door said I could come in but couldn't buy beer. At 15 yrs of age I saw Chris Colt and her twin 45's!

Don't blame the mother.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:

I saw one of the parents on the 6 in the Morning news, and while I do feel sympathy for her, I cannot help but wonder if she knew her child was entering an 18-and-over nightclub downtown. That is something I would never allow a loved one to do.

I just saw the mother on Ch 6 news too. She didn't know her sons were at a club. They were supposed to be staying at a friends house. Kids slip under the radar no matter how hard you try.

I went to a Key Club convention in Dallas when I was that age. A Kiwanis highschool business club. Somehow I ended up in a club with strippers and gangsters (it had been owned by Jack Ruby). The guy at the door said I could come in but couldn't buy beer. At 15 yrs of age I saw Chris Colt and her twin 45's!

Don't blame the mother.

How is the fact that you were somewhat delinquent when you were younger an excuse for a parents lack of supervision of her children..?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:

I saw one of the parents on the 6 in the Morning news, and while I do feel sympathy for her, I cannot help but wonder if she knew her child was entering an 18-and-over nightclub downtown. That is something I would never allow a loved one to do.

I just saw the mother on Ch 6 news too. She didn't know her sons were at a club. They were supposed to be staying at a friends house. Kids slip under the radar no matter how hard you try.

I went to a Key Club convention in Dallas when I was that age. A Kiwanis highschool business club. Somehow I ended up in a club with strippers and gangsters (it had been owned by Jack Ruby). The guy at the door said I could come in but couldn't buy beer. At 15 yrs of age I saw Chris Colt and her twin 45's!

Don't blame the mother.

How is the fact that you were somewhat delinquent when you were younger an excuse for a parents lack of supervision of her children..?

Look, I was a "good" kid. Yet, I slipped out my upstairs window, shimmied down the gutter and went out with my friends when I was younger than that. God was watching me for sure as I never got in serious trouble. When it comes to fooling your parents as a teenager its not a fair fight.

Ever heard of "I'm spending the night at Jeff's house. His parents will be out for the evening and we'll be playing basketball in the back". That way when the phone doesn't answer you have an alibi. Meanwhile Jeff tells his parents the same thing and each parent slips up and believes.

[Rage]

Sorry for the shooting but the mom is retarded... She is going to protest the club? Why??? You can't say anything about this...

Look what she had to say

quote: Lin says her 18 and 15-year-old sons told her they were going to a friend's house to practice break-dancing. Someone suggested they use the Ministry's dance floor, and while she visited her father in the hospital they were off to the club. Now 18-year-old Jeremy is in the hospital with bullet fragments in his head.

She has to be lying somewhere-- They went to there friends house to Break dance??? Yeah and Paul Tay is not riding his bike on the roadway anymore...

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by TulsaMINI

Hawkins uses every opportunity to claim that downtown is scary, dangerous, confusing, deserted -- whatever he can think of to slam the area. All while talking up south Tulsa.

I think it's time for an addition to the ignore list...wouldn't be missing any posts of any value that's for sure.

Obviously Hawkins is naive here, but there are thousands of others in suburban Tulsa who have the same uninformed opinion.  Hawkins is one small piece of Tulsa's vast unrecognized, unsolicited market.  Tulsa suffers from what the marketing field calls "marketing myopia", which is the failure to recognize the scope of one's business.

Unrealized potential is un-marketed potential.

[perspicuity85]

Is the Ministry of Sound in the same location "Studio 54" and Club Omega were located?  Did each of these clubs have the same owner?  All of these clubs seemed to be very poorly managed- what were they thinking allowing anyone in a nightclub under 18?  Have they ever heard of liability or risk management?  There are thousands of clubs in other cities that allow 18 & ups, and require wristbands for 21 & ups to drink.  Most of these clubs employ huge bouncers that walk around randomly ID-ing people.  I have relatives that have to go through metal detectors when they enter nightclubs in a wealthy suburb of San Francisco.  There needs to be a citywide security requirement for clubs with certain occupancy capabilities, no matter where they're located.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

Is the Ministry of Sound in the same location "Studio 54" and Club Omega were located?  Did each of these clubs have the same owner?  All of these clubs seemed to be very poorly managed- what were they thinking allowing anyone in a nightclub under 18?  Have they ever heard of liability or risk management?  There are thousands of clubs in other cities that allow 18 & ups, and require wristbands for 21 & ups to drink.  Most of these clubs employ huge bouncers that walk around randomly ID-ing people.  I have relatives that have to go through metal detectors when they enter nightclubs in a wealthy suburb of San Francisco.  There needs to be a citywide security requirement for clubs with certain occupancy capabilities, no matter where they're located.

Not the same location. Same owner/operator, but different buildings.

And for Hawkins, blaming downtown for this is the epitome of stupidity. I guess when Kitchell ran the club out at 81st & memorial and had the same kinds of problems, that meant the south side was a derelict, crime-ridden wasteland, too? Wherever he opens a club, that's where the problems are.

[Rob]

These are the type of people that cause us to have stickers on a hairdryer that says "DANGER: DO NOT USE IN THE BATHTUB OR SHOWER"

People need to quit blaming their problems on everyone else.  The only question this mother needs to ask is why in the hell did she not know where her son was at 2:30 in the morning?

My 15 year old could not step 10 feet outside of this house at 9PM without us being all over her.

[Rob]

quote:Ever heard of "I'm spending the night at Jeff's house. His parents will be out for the evening and we'll be playing basketball in the back". That way when the phone doesn't answer you have an alibi. Meanwhile Jeff tells his parents the same thing and each parent slips up and believes.

Yeah, that worked in the 80's.

If you are a parent and fall for it in this day and age, you are a fool.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Rob

These are the type of people that cause us to have stickers on a hairdryer that says "DANGER: DO NOT USE IN THE BATHTUB OR SHOWER"

People need to quit blaming their problems on everyone else.  The only question this mother needs to ask is why in the hell did she not know where her son was at 2:30 in the morning?

My 15 year old could not step 10 feet outside of this house at 9PM without us being all over her.

The one thing they never tell people about Tulsa before they move here is the judgemental attitudes we are all so proud of. The mother's child is laying in bed with a bullet in his head, a 50/50 chance of surviving. It can't be the fault of a purveyor of alcohol to minors whose clubs routinely allow underage people into them and are known to be trouble prone. BTW the one with the bullet in his head is 18 and was allowed in legally. Why, he's just a good businessman providing a needed service to the community by acting as attractive nuisance to poorly supervised young people. Not his fault.

So it must be the fault of the single mother of two teenage boys. So far she is retarded, a liar, ignorant and obviously a poor parent. Ah, the judgemental arrogance of the smug. Can we put that on our Chamber of Commerce fliers?

[Rob]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Rob

These are the type of people that cause us to have stickers on a hairdryer that says "DANGER: DO NOT USE IN THE BATHTUB OR SHOWER"

People need to quit blaming their problems on everyone else.  The only question this mother needs to ask is why in the hell did she not know where her son was at 2:30 in the morning?

My 15 year old could not step 10 feet outside of this house at 9PM without us being all over her.

The one thing they never tell people about Tulsa before they move here is the judgemental attitudes we are all so proud of. The mother's child is laying in bed with a bullet in his head, a 50/50 chance of surviving. It can't be the fault of a purveyor of alcohol to minors whose clubs routinely allow underage people into them and are known to be trouble prone. BTW the one with the bullet in his head is 18 and was allowed in legally. Why, he's just a good businessman providing a needed service to the community by acting as attractive nuisance to poorly supervised young people. Not his fault.

So it must be the fault of the single mother of two teenage boys. So far she is retarded, a liar, ignorant and obviously a poor parent. Ah, the judgemental arrogance of the smug. Can we put that on our Chamber of Commerce fliers?

I never said Kitchell was a steller business man.  I worked in one of his clubs for over a year and I know firsthand how he operates.

Parents these days want to blame everything that happens to their kids on everyone else.

If a child crosses a busy intersection on a NO WALK sign, the driver that hits the kid is blamed for the accident.

These kids need a thumb put on them at all times.  My kid is a great kid, but because of her age I still don't trust her.  I question everything she does.  They have too many bad influences and temptations coming at them constantly.  You cannot let your guard down but at the same time if they hang out at a barber shop every week and eventually get a haircut, don't blame the barber.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

Is the Ministry of Sound in the same location "Studio 54" and Club Omega were located?  Did each of these clubs have the same owner?  All of these clubs seemed to be very poorly managed- what were they thinking allowing anyone in a nightclub under 18?  Have they ever heard of liability or risk management?  There are thousands of clubs in other cities that allow 18 & ups, and require wristbands for 21 & ups to drink.  Most of these clubs employ huge bouncers that walk around randomly ID-ing people.  I have relatives that have to go through metal detectors when they enter nightclubs in a wealthy suburb of San Francisco.  There needs to be a citywide security requirement for clubs with certain occupancy capabilities, no matter where they're located.

Any "public gathering place" such as a bar or restaurant has an occupancy permit.  It's based on square footage and, I believe, a couple of other criteria.

Problem is, there isn't enough manpower to police bar owners who won't police themselves.  If police are constantly hounding a bar, the owner could claim harrassment.  

My understanding is the fire marshall's office is primarily responsible for enforcing occupancy.  If a club is regulated by ABLE (only falls in their jurisdiction if liquor is served) they can fine owners for underage drinking or any other infraction based on their laws.

According to the Tulsa Whirled this morning, 3.2 beer clubs are regulated by the city.  The story also went on to talk about Steve Kitchell's reputation as a public nuisance (my digest of the story).

I don't believe there is any way to declare a bar owner or operator as a "public nuisance" and keep them from re-appearing on the scene.  The Ministry of Sound is "owned" by Joe Kitchell III, Steve's brother, and Steve is the "operator".  

The Kitchell family has played shell games for years to get around various issues with ABLE, OTC, the city, and creditors.  IMHO, they probably have such a convoluted series of LLC's and Inc.'s that they are paupers on paper.  You can also be assured that their corporation's assets at any given time are $10K or less, and I'd bet most of the equipment in their bars are leased.  So a civil suit against them is going to net nothing.

The only way to stop incidents like this is for legislation banning anyone under 21 being allowed into bars.  The Kitchell's have figured out how to manipulate the system and are masters at it.  If Ministry of Sound is shut down, they will re-appear somewhere else under a different name.