Shootings at The Ministry of Sound.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Rob

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Rob

These are the type of people that cause us to have stickers on a hairdryer that says "DANGER: DO NOT USE IN THE BATHTUB OR SHOWER"

People need to quit blaming their problems on everyone else.  The only question this mother needs to ask is why in the hell did she not know where her son was at 2:30 in the morning?

My 15 year old could not step 10 feet outside of this house at 9PM without us being all over her.

The one thing they never tell people about Tulsa before they move here is the judgemental attitudes we are all so proud of. The mother's child is laying in bed with a bullet in his head, a 50/50 chance of surviving. It can't be the fault of a purveyor of alcohol to minors whose clubs routinely allow underage people into them and are known to be trouble prone. BTW the one with the bullet in his head is 18 and was allowed in legally. Why, he's just a good businessman providing a needed service to the community by acting as attractive nuisance to poorly supervised young people. Not his fault.

So it must be the fault of the single mother of two teenage boys. So far she is retarded, a liar, ignorant and obviously a poor parent. Ah, the judgemental arrogance of the smug. Can we put that on our Chamber of Commerce fliers?

I never said Kitchell was a steller business man.  I worked in one of his clubs for over a year and I know firsthand how he operates.

Parents these days want to blame everything that happens to their kids on everyone else.

If a child crosses a busy intersection on a NO WALK sign, the driver that hits the kid is blamed for the accident.

These kids need a thumb put on them at all times.  My kid is a great kid, but because of her age I still don't trust her.  I question everything she does.  They have too many bad influences and temptations coming at them constantly.  You cannot let your guard down but at the same time if they hang out at a barber shop every week and eventually get a haircut, don't blame the barber.

I can't agree with anything you've written except that you didn't mention Kitchell. Nor did you call her retarded. I answered several posts at once.

Your viewpoint is common. Too common. And wrong. Why do you carry insurance Rob? When that child crosses against the "don't walk" sign it does not give you permission or the right to run over him because he doesn't obey. As a driver you're supposed to watch and be alert for pedestrians. We value human life more than obedience in this culture. Insurance covers your behind.

You have one child. A girl. And perhaps two parents to watch over her. Maybe extended family. Try having several boys and a single parent then come back and lecture. You represent what a lot of naive people believe. That they can somehow protect their kids from the real world if they just circle the wagons and keep the thumb down with enough pressure. Walls around the neighborhood, security cameras, church, private schools. Well, guess what. There is no safety in life. None. Even if you are so lucky as to keep your daughter from trouble, that in itself will weaken her when she escapes to the real world.

[Rob]

quote:I can't agree with anything you've written except that you didn't mention Kitchell. Nor did you call her retarded. I answered several posts at once.

Your viewpoint is common. Too common. And wrong. Why do you carry insurance Rob? When that child crosses against the "don't walk" sign it does not give you permission or the right to run over him because he doesn't obey. As a driver you're supposed to watch and be alert for pedestrians. We value human life more than obedience in this culture. Insurance covers your behind.

You have one child. A girl. And perhaps two parents to watch over her. Maybe extended family. Try having several boys and a single parent then come back and lecture. You represent what a lot of naive people believe. That they can somehow protect their kids from the real world if they just circle the wagons and keep the thumb down with enough pressure. Walls around the neighborhood, security cameras, church, private schools. Well, guess what. There is no safety in life. None. Even if you are so lucky as to keep your daughter from trouble, that in itself will weaken her when she escapes to the real world.

You are making assumptions about my statement.  I never said it was OK to hit the kid, but if the accident is unavoidable generally the driver will be to blame.  Nevermind the fact that the kid just stepped out into traffic.

I also never said I only had one child.  We have three.

And you hit the nail on the head. There is no safety in life.

Get over it.

So what is your solution to the issue?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Rob

quote:I can't agree with anything you've written except that you didn't mention Kitchell. Nor did you call her retarded. I answered several posts at once.

Your viewpoint is common. Too common. And wrong. Why do you carry insurance Rob? When that child crosses against the "don't walk" sign it does not give you permission or the right to run over him because he doesn't obey. As a driver you're supposed to watch and be alert for pedestrians. We value human life more than obedience in this culture. Insurance covers your behind.

You have one child. A girl. And perhaps two parents to watch over her. Maybe extended family. Try having several boys and a single parent then come back and lecture. You represent what a lot of naive people believe. That they can somehow protect their kids from the real world if they just circle the wagons and keep the thumb down with enough pressure. Walls around the neighborhood, security cameras, church, private schools. Well, guess what. There is no safety in life. None. Even if you are so lucky as to keep your daughter from trouble, that in itself will weaken her when she escapes to the real world.

You are making assumptions about my statement.  I never said it was OK to hit the kid, but if the accident is unavoidable generally the driver will be to blame.  Nevermind the fact that the kid just stepped out into traffic.

I also never said I only had one child.  We have three.

And you hit the nail on the head. There is no safety in life.

Get over it.

So what is your solution to the issue?

I didn't make assumptions, I made inferences. The first step would be to stop blaming parents for every mis-step of their children. Too easy. Next might be compassion and insight. People act like this woman dropped her kids off at a drinking trough. Besides having the shock of her son being shot she has to endure the judgement of people with no knowledge or appreciation of circumstances calling her names and jumping to conclusions.

And lastly, I would listen to what Conan wrote and do something before the Kitchell Plan becomes acceptable.

[MH2010]

Is anyone going to blame the person who shot the two kids?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

Is anyone going to blame the person who shot the two kids?

Well of course. Does anyone know who they are and why they did it? I heard there were 1500 people in the place. Sure seemed high to me.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

Is anyone going to blame the person who shot the two kids?

Now MH you know that is not the way it works.......

You blame the system that created the little ba#*a&^$.......

After all the system allowed the kids to get in the club..

the system allowed the firearms to be on the street...

the system taught them it was OK to pop some caps in a crowded bar..

And the system has allowed the citizens of Tulsa.... such fine upstanding citizens such as Mister Kitchell to not be able to run a business without this sort of thing happening every so often...

No One is to blame but the system..!
[}:)]

[South_Tulsan]

Never heard of that place, and hope I never hear about it again.

[Conan71]

Here's the irony:  According to law anyhow, I'm responsible and liable for my kids until they reach 18.  If my 17 year old daughter causes a wreck with bodily harm or death, I'm held responsible even though I'm not the one who ran a red light or whatever (thank God after a year of driving- no accidents).  When she had surgery last year, she couldn't sign a single form only her mother or myself could.  If one of my daughters vandalizes public or private property, I'd be held responsible.  Parents do have a legal and moral responsibility for their kids.

Without personally knowing the parents of these kids, I'm not going to blame the mother or try to make a commentary that she's somehow failed and as a result her 15 year old child has been shot.  It's not my place.  She may be the best mother in the world.  Lashing out at her without knowing the whole back-story is presumptuous.  

I too was one of those kids who would sneak out of the house and managed to talk my way into Parties on Brookside, The Tap Room, Arnies, et. al. and managed to get beer.  My mother wasn't inattentive, so far as she knew I was a responsible young man and she did give me a fairly long leash since so far as she knew I wasn't out getting in trouble.  I did a pretty good job of painting positive pictures of the kids I hung around with who had inattentive parents.  Fortunately, I never got into any serious trouble.

There are still stories I've never told her 25 years later, because they would curl her toenails and I'd just as soon forget some of the incidents all together.

I will make one comment about what I think has made  a difference in the types of kids my children choose for friends, vs. who I was hanging out with and what they consider worthwhile recreation.  Both have been very involved in youth programs at their Church and are dedicated athletes.  I was neither.  They don't see drinking and night clubs as exciting alternatives for spending their time- so far.  I feel like the small sacrifice in time that I've made in going to Church on Sunday and trying to make every single meet or game has made a difference.  

Parents can stay involved in their children's lives without "keeping a thumb" on them.  There is a difference in being involved and trying to control a child's life.  Those that feel controlled, rather than guided will lash out the worst.

[Tulsan247]

Does anyone really expect that kids/young adults would leave a club just because an announcement was made?  Not hardly.  Why do these same kids try to make false ID's...for the same reason they are trying to get in.  It should be a requirement for every single ID to be checked or change the club to 21 and over.  

Last but not least, I have from a very reliable news source, that reporters contacted Crimestoppers to ask about the 10,000 reward that Steve Kitchell announced he had done to catch the shooter. Crimestoppers did not know anything about it and had not heard from Kitchell.  I would like to know if he actually ever did anything...I guess he would have to follow through since he announced it on the news.  He made it sound like on the news that he was working hand in hand with Crimestoppers to solve this crime.

If you do not know Steve Kitchell, he is a terrible person.  Very very evil! He believes he is above the law.  It seems as though the Tulsa police force is afraid of him.  I think that Tulsa vendors and public need to boycott him.  Vendors should not sell to him and the public should not go to his establishments.  Unfortunately, most people in Tulsa don't realize how bad of a person he is.  Only those people who have had dealings with him or know someone who has.  He is not just a bad businessman...he is again a very evil person.  I saw online that he is going through court proceedings for assaulting a man.  In fact, I heard from someone that he was an elderly man.  We need Kitchell out of Tulsa and out of Oklahoma.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Here's the irony:  According to law anyhow, I'm responsible and liable for my kids until they reach 18.  If my 17 year old daughter causes a wreck with bodily harm or death, I'm held responsible even though I'm not the one who ran a red light or whatever (thank God after a year of driving- no accidents).  When she had surgery last year, she couldn't sign a single form only her mother or myself could.  If one of my daughters vandalizes public or private property, I'd be held responsible.  Parents do have a legal and moral responsibility for their kids.

Without personally knowing the parents of these kids, I'm not going to blame the mother or try to make a commentary that she's somehow failed and as a result her 15 year old child has been shot.  It's not my place.  She may be the best mother in the world.  Lashing out at her without knowing the whole back-story is presumptuous.  

I too was one of those kids who would sneak out of the house and managed to talk my way into Parties on Brookside, The Tap Room, Arnies, et. al. and managed to get beer.  My mother wasn't inattentive, so far as she knew I was a responsible young man and she did give me a fairly long leash since so far as she knew I wasn't out getting in trouble.  I did a pretty good job of painting positive pictures of the kids I hung around with who had inattentive parents.  Fortunately, I never got into any serious trouble.

There are still stories I've never told her 25 years later, because they would curl her toenails and I'd just as soon forget some of the incidents all together.

I will make one comment about what I think has made  a difference in the types of kids my children choose for friends, vs. who I was hanging out with and what they consider worthwhile recreation.  Both have been very involved in youth programs at their Church and are dedicated athletes.  I was neither.  They don't see drinking and night clubs as exciting alternatives for spending their time- so far.  I feel like the small sacrifice in time that I've made in going to Church on Sunday and trying to make every single meet or game has made a difference.  

Parents can stay involved in their children's lives without "keeping a thumb" on them.  There is a difference in being involved and trying to control a child's life.  Those that feel controlled, rather than guided will lash out the worst.

Geez. That's what I'm saying too. How did we end up on different ends of the political spectrum?

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Here's the irony:  According to law anyhow, I'm responsible and liable for my kids until they reach 18.  If my 17 year old daughter causes a wreck with bodily harm or death, I'm held responsible even though I'm not the one who ran a red light or whatever (thank God after a year of driving- no accidents).  When she had surgery last year, she couldn't sign a single form only her mother or myself could.  If one of my daughters vandalizes public or private property, I'd be held responsible.  Parents do have a legal and moral responsibility for their kids.

Without personally knowing the parents of these kids, I'm not going to blame the mother or try to make a commentary that she's somehow failed and as a result her 15 year old child has been shot.  It's not my place.  She may be the best mother in the world.  Lashing out at her without knowing the whole back-story is presumptuous.  

I too was one of those kids who would sneak out of the house and managed to talk my way into Parties on Brookside, The Tap Room, Arnies, et. al. and managed to get beer.  My mother wasn't inattentive, so far as she knew I was a responsible young man and she did give me a fairly long leash since so far as she knew I wasn't out getting in trouble.  I did a pretty good job of painting positive pictures of the kids I hung around with who had inattentive parents.  Fortunately, I never got into any serious trouble.

There are still stories I've never told her 25 years later, because they would curl her toenails and I'd just as soon forget some of the incidents all together.

I will make one comment about what I think has made  a difference in the types of kids my children choose for friends, vs. who I was hanging out with and what they consider worthwhile recreation.  Both have been very involved in youth programs at their Church and are dedicated athletes.  I was neither.  They don't see drinking and night clubs as exciting alternatives for spending their time- so far.  I feel like the small sacrifice in time that I've made in going to Church on Sunday and trying to make every single meet or game has made a difference.  

Parents can stay involved in their children's lives without "keeping a thumb" on them.  There is a difference in being involved and trying to control a child's life.  Those that feel controlled, rather than guided will lash out the worst.

Geez. That's what I'm saying too. How did we end up on different ends of the political spectrum?

Must be that I'm a closet lib and you are a closet neo-con [}:)]

[deinstein]

quote:Originally posted by Hawkins

Perhaps I'm being naive on this, but personally I would expect bullets to be flying at a club in downtown Tulsa. The place is scummy, and after 5:00, when all the people who are forced to work there go home, only the shady folks remain.

I'm total scum when I go see shows at the Cain's or Brady...or grab a beer at McNellie's.

I'm total scum...

Or, you're just a wimp.

Yeah...you're a wimp.

[deinstein]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

Is anyone going to blame the person who shot the two kids?

Ding ding.

[D]

From reading the "Clubbin" blog at www.tulsapolice.org/tpdblog.htm I do not get the impression that the police are fond of those clubs either. And I'm sure they are not fond of Kitchell?

I'll bet Tulsa Police officers don't let their kids go to those places if they can control it. But they cannot control the law that allows these types of clubs to operate.

I believe that our state legislators should be made aware of this, but is there not some municipal ordinaces that could be amended or changed so that these types of clubs can't sell beer when those under eighteen (or twenty one) are in the building.

They aren't serving food.

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

Is anyone going to blame the person who shot the two kids?

Ding ding.

You are absolutely right, the main blame lies on the person that shot the gun.  I apologize for not mentioning this in my previous posts.  But it does not answer the question as to why the underage victim(s) were at the club in the first place.  The issue gets more complicated by the minute.  Who fired the gun?  Where did he/she get it?  Why was a 15-year-old in a nightclub at 2:00 AM?