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July 13, 2020, 04:41:57 am
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Author Topic: Gilcrease Museum Demolition  (Read 2947 times)
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2020, 02:36:59 pm »

On the face of it, I'm disappointed.  Crystal Bridges to the east is 217,000sf.  The OKC National Cowboy HoF Museum is 220,000sf.  We're told Gilcrease has THE MOST SIGNIFICANT/MEANINGFUL collection of art of the creation/heritage of America IN THE ENTIRE WORLD.  And we're talking 89,000sf with a very reputable journeyman architecture firm at the helm.  IF THERE IS NOWHERE ON EARTH YOU CAN EXPERIENCE THIS ART + Bob Dylan Archive why would it not get Gathering Place treatment?  It's about art --- they have a 450-acre canvas to paint this on --- think Getty Center.  Gathering Place is spectacular, but there are other parks across the country.  Maggy Daly in Chicago.  Scissortail in OKC, etc.  Gathering Place may be best, but there is plenty of competition and how far are people going to come to go to Gathering Place?  100, 200 miles?  Your best chance to bring in new money is to exploit something that only you have --- that if you wanted to see, this is the only place on earth - cannot be replicated.  Why not double or triple the fundraising, hire an iconic architect to build an iconic facility that itself would be art and draw visitors (Crystal Bridges, BOK Center).  Put up "The American" statute on the property.  Hire a world renowned landscape architect to create grounds complimenting nearby Botanic Garden.  Make it a national landmark.  Right now, Walmart covers admission to Crystal Bridges for perpetuity. QuikTrip?  Williams? ONEOK?   We have a lot of things that a lot of other cities have --- even if done better. We've become a "me too" city.  Arenas, Food Halls, etc.  All great, all done elsewhere first.  I've been led to believe the Gilcrease collection is unique in all the world.  Bob Dylan and maybe other American music archive collections could find an iconic home.  Go big here. Make it the national landmark it could be.  Widen Gilcrease Road and over-landscape it all the way up...  Also inspire others to contribute their collections.  They say Gilcrease has 10-12,000 pieces, many irreplaceable.  Crystal Bridges has 2,500 not nearly as significant historically in total, yet they get multiple time more visitors. PR and Placemaking! Build a Gilcrease the art can be proud of --- one that people take notice of whether they mean to or not.  What better do we have to hang our hat on?               

The original proposal was something that was supposed to fit what you're talking about. Very disappointing that we will instead get a base line museum that will replace the function the museum already fulfills. It will be nicer, sure, but highly unlikely that it'll be a regional draw. It is long past time to go big or go home for Gilcrease. This was their chance and someone (or several involved) dropped the ball on usefulness of the current place. It looks like they'll just "stay home" and remain a small local musuem with a large hidden collection.

Hopefully a large donor will come along (cough cough.. GKFF), but looks like TU's financial woes put a death knell to any major outside funding for the time being.
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ComeOnBenjals
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« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2020, 08:54:49 am »

Additional article: https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/government-and-politics/renovating-expanding-gilcrease-museum-would-have-cost-million-more-than/article_c26848df-ee5e-5cfd-a47b-ae46690c5a5a.html

"The cityís decision to build a new, smaller Gilcrease Museum, rather than renovate and add to the existing structure, was based on two related facts: the building is in bad shape, and rebuilding it to todayís museum standards would cost much more than the city has to spend.

How much more? About $17 million, according to an analysis of the structure done by SmithGroup, the lead architect on the project.

Jame Anderson, cultural practice director with SmithGroup, said the discussion changed from renovation to new construction once the firmís analysis of existing conditions was completed."
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DowntownDan
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« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2020, 11:27:04 am »

In addition to Gilcrease proper, make a complimentary American Music Archive on grounds housing Dylan and add to that collection - Johnny Cash, etc.  Amphitheater overlooking the Osage for concerts - New National Home of OKLAHOMA replacing Discoveryland? Make it a destination for families, Route 66 travelers --- a bucket list "must see."  I know it's easy to have ideas using other people's money.  Just seems like the opportunity many in Tulsa have been reaching for is right before our eyes.    

I like that the music archives are downtown and the Guthrie Green is already there and is an awesome facility when in use. If we are going to be a music hub it should be concentrated downtown to the extent possible (the casinos obviously would be where they are).
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« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2020, 10:08:07 am »

I'll withhold judgement until the new plans are released but agree the current building is very underwhelming. 
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Vision 2025
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« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2020, 11:01:48 am »

No doubt the conglomeration of buildings is a challenge, I recall significant water problems during the 80's expansion project that buckled the new wood floors which was traced to unknown issues with the existing buildings.  However; I also have a bunch of personal emotion on this one.  Gilcrease has always been a special connection for my family as my Father was City Attorney when the collection was acquired, he negotiated the deal with Mr. Gilcrease, wrote the original ballot/bond issue (which he admitted needed a little post election help from the State Supreme Court) that bought the original Collection, museum building and site essentially for free.  Plus the original curator was a long time family friend and over the years my mother donated several pieces to the collection so I'm invested, excited, cautious and really hopeful this project will be something special to showcase the collection and draw new visitors. 

Kirby Crowe
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2020, 09:45:56 am »

No doubt the conglomeration of buildings is a challenge, I recall significant water problems during the 80's expansion project that buckled the new wood floors which was traced to unknown issues with the existing buildings.  However; I also have a bunch of personal emotion on this one.  Gilcrease has always been a special connection for my family as my Father was City Attorney when the collection was acquired, he negotiated the deal with Mr. Gilcrease, wrote the original ballot/bond issue (which he admitted needed a little post election help from the State Supreme Court) that bought the original Collection, museum building and site essentially for free.  Plus the original curator was a long time family friend and over the years my mother donated several pieces to the collection so I'm invested, excited, cautious and really hopeful this project will be something special to showcase the collection and draw new visitors. 

Kirby Crowe

That's really neat your family was so closely tied to that.

Overall, this sounds like the only option and a necessary one for the future of Gilcrease, but I think a lot of people are disappointed after being told there was a "matching gift" of $55 million from TU (gone), plus a big expansion that would put this up there with Crystal Bridges. Now we're supposed to be thankful they even saved Gilcrease. The craziest thing about it is that Gilcrease just went through a $28 million expansion in 2014!

http://www.newson6.com/story/26462158/tulsans-get-a-sneak-peek-at-gilcrease-28m-expansion


It isn't just this one disappointment with the Vision 2025 stuff:

* The Pedestrian Bridge is held up and is far under-funded vs what the citizens voted on.
* The BMX construction on the Fairgrounds was completely botched and old usable stadium (for which there was income-producing demand for soccer games) was demolished to be a sinkhole of lawn maintenance and no prospects. The new BMX facility ended up costing around 50% more than what it was supposed to cost.
* Zink Dam seems nowhere near starting even though it was slated to be constructed in 2019 (http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/library/37be184c-5714-4df5-99b9-f600852ef67d.pdf)
* The cuts to 911 15 staff right after voters approved adding 16 positions (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/government/city-officials-defend-cuts-to/article_c856782f-5f58-5fca-be53-c3e88ada47f4.html) (The ol' bait & switch with funds)
* Public Safety: Has crime decreased at all? In any categories? I keep seeing Tulsa creep up the most dangerous city lists with astonishingly high violent and property crime rates. Looks like some neighborhoods are safe from violent crime but petty theft is common while other neighborhoods are drowning in crime. Do we even have more police or fire fighters than before 2016?
* Education: Once again no measurable or visible improvement. Families still flock to the suburbs while the majority of inner city schools are proving they cannot and will not educate students. Teacher retention kept dropping more and more over the last 4 years. Nothing about the teacher retention fund seemed to help. 

I haven't heard updates on most of the Vision 2025 projects. Are any of the big items being constructed yet? We voted for this stuff in 2016 and 4 years later there is almost no progress on any of the big items! This is pathetic. Tulsans were foolish to ever think giving the government more money would create any "big visionary" changes like we were sold before voting. One of the easier things to implement in the package (BRT) took over 3 years!

Then the mayor dropped the ball on siding with the people for the 71st and Riverside debacle where the previous mayor gifted a developer around $10 million worth of real estate for nearly free. That should've been corrected by the new mayor to differentiate himself as someone who supports the citizens and stands up for what is right. Giving away prime parkland on the river for a wasteful shopping center with massive parking crater is shameful. That's old Chicago-level corruption.

I guess the government wants to teach Tulsans an important lesson: Life sucks and then you die. Or more specifically Tulsa sucks and the city will keep throwing your money away to make sure it always will.
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Oil Capital
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« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2020, 11:31:30 am »

That's really neat your family was so closely tied to that.

Overall, this sounds like the only option and a necessary one for the future of Gilcrease, but I think a lot of people are disappointed after being told there was a "matching gift" of $55 million from TU (gone), plus a big expansion that would put this up there with Crystal Bridges. Now we're supposed to be thankful they even saved Gilcrease. The craziest thing about it is that Gilcrease just went through a $28 million expansion in 2014!

http://www.newson6.com/story/26462158/tulsans-get-a-sneak-peek-at-gilcrease-28m-expansion


Surely, that building (the very new Helmerich Center) is not slated to be torn down...  Please tell me they aren't tearing down a free-standing building that was just completed 5 years ago.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2020, 11:52:17 am »

Surely, that building (the very new Helmerich Center) is not slated to be torn down...  Please tell me they aren't tearing down a free-standing building that was just completed 5 years ago.

I hope not. Is that building the only thing they added on in 2014? If so I'd guess they keep it, but the wording of the article made it seem like they had to find/build an interim place to keep all the artwork and create a popup gallery. You'd think they could just use that building for storage.
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TheArtist
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« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2020, 11:52:41 am »

Surely, that building (the very new Helmerich Center) is not slated to be torn down...  Please tell me they aren't tearing down a free-standing building that was just completed 5 years ago.

Surely not, that building and the home are likely where they will have small exhibits and offices during construction of the new museum.
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"When you only have two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other."-Chinese proverb. "Arts a staple. Like bread or wine or a warm coat in winter. Those who think it is a luxury have only a fragment of a mind. Mans spirit grows hungry for art in the same way h
TulsaBeMore
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« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2020, 06:46:19 am »

Sort of related  -  Anybody know why Philbrook didn't get the George Kravis Industrial Design Collection? Said to be one of the most impressive collections in the country.  First, it was to be housed at Philbrook in the Arts District according to promotional material from 2013.  Then that seemed to go away - never noticed an article on why.  Then when George died the collection was divided among 18 museums/schools across the country --- nothing for Philbrook.  I've also noticed on a recent facility map of Philbrook the name Kravis is nowhere to be found even though the entire 70,000sf wing on north end was named the Kravis Wing when built --- think it still says that on front.  What happened?  You don't see the Kravis name on anything around here anymore.  Henry was born here - think he went to Edison... and a multi-billionaire --- he just gave $10 million for the renovation of the Kravis Performing Arts Center in West Palm Beach.  Was there some type of falling out?       
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patric
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« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2020, 12:39:30 pm »

....
* Public Safety: Has crime decreased at all? In any categories? I keep seeing Tulsa creep up the most dangerous city lists with astonishingly high violent and property crime rates. Looks like some neighborhoods are safe from violent crime but petty theft is common while other neighborhoods are drowning in crime. Do we even have more police or fire fighters than before 2016?
* Education: Once again no measurable or visible improvement. Families still flock to the suburbs while the majority of inner city schools are proving they cannot and will not educate students. Teacher retention kept dropping more and more over the last 4 years. Nothing about the teacher retention fund seemed to help.
....


But installing new (old-style) streetlights along barren stretches of north Tulsa is a priority, even over education spending.

Imagine That.
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
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« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2020, 01:42:57 pm »

Sort of related  -  Anybody know why Philbrook didn't get the George Kravis Industrial Design Collection? Said to be one of the most impressive collections in the country.  First, it was to be housed at Philbrook in the Arts District according to promotional material from 2013.  Then that seemed to go away - never noticed an article on why.  Then when George died the collection was divided among 18 museums/schools across the country --- nothing for Philbrook.  I've also noticed on a recent facility map of Philbrook the name Kravis is nowhere to be found even though the entire 70,000sf wing on north end was named the Kravis Wing when built --- think it still says that on front.  What happened?  You don't see the Kravis name on anything around here anymore.  Henry was born here - think he went to Edison... and a multi-billionaire --- he just gave $10 million for the renovation of the Kravis Performing Arts Center in West Palm Beach.  Was there some type of falling out?       

Wasnít this collection at one time stored in Tulsa?  I remember hearing about it.

There is still the Kravis medical office building at 19th & Utica next to St John.
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TulsaBeMore
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« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2020, 07:05:14 pm »

Yes. Mr. Kravis had the collection here in Tulsa and I believe his goal was to house it here in the middle of the country in a facility of its own --- likely connected to Philbrook.  Not totally sure.  OSU got some of it and so did the Tulsa Historical Society --- not Philbrook.  From the website which is still up, it looks like the Design Center would have been in Tulsa had Mr. Kravis not died.  https://www.kravisdesigncenter.org/about-george-kravis-design-center.

As far as the Kravis Building at St. John and the name on other buildings, etc., I don't think the family has its name on anything new in the past few years (maybe 20). Henry Kravis is a Tulsa-born billionaire who collects art and his wife is involved in museums in NYC.  Not sure, but don't think he comes around here much anymore just based on what's out in public magazines, articles, media, etc.  Could be 100% wrong.   
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Vision 2025
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« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2020, 04:00:21 pm »

That's really neat your family was so closely tied to that.

Overall, this sounds like the only option and a necessary one for the future of Gilcrease, but I think a lot of people are disappointed after being told there was a "matching gift" of $55 million from TU (gone), plus a big expansion that would put this up there with Crystal Bridges. Now we're supposed to be thankful they even saved Gilcrease. The craziest thing about it is that Gilcrease just went through a $28 million expansion in 2014!

http://www.newson6.com/story/26462158/tulsans-get-a-sneak-peek-at-gilcrease-28m-expansion


It isn't just this one disappointment with the Vision 2025 stuff:

* The Pedestrian Bridge is held up and is far under-funded vs what the citizens voted on.
* The BMX construction on the Fairgrounds was completely botched and old usable stadium (for which there was income-producing demand for soccer games) was demolished to be a sinkhole of lawn maintenance and no prospects. The new BMX facility ended up costing around 50% more than what it was supposed to cost.
* Zink Dam seems nowhere near starting even though it was slated to be constructed in 2019 (http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/library/37be184c-5714-4df5-99b9-f600852ef67d.pdf)
* The cuts to 911 15 staff right after voters approved adding 16 positions (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/government/city-officials-defend-cuts-to/article_c856782f-5f58-5fca-be53-c3e88ada47f4.html) (The ol' bait & switch with funds)
* Public Safety: Has crime decreased at all? In any categories? I keep seeing Tulsa creep up the most dangerous city lists with astonishingly high violent and property crime rates. Looks like some neighborhoods are safe from violent crime but petty theft is common while other neighborhoods are drowning in crime. Do we even have more police or fire fighters than before 2016?
* Education: Once again no measurable or visible improvement. Families still flock to the suburbs while the majority of inner city schools are proving they cannot and will not educate students. Teacher retention kept dropping more and more over the last 4 years. Nothing about the teacher retention fund seemed to help. 

I haven't heard updates on most of the Vision 2025 projects. Are any of the big items being constructed yet? We voted for this stuff in 2016 and 4 years later there is almost no progress on any of the big items! This is pathetic. Tulsans were foolish to ever think giving the government more money would create any "big visionary" changes like we were sold before voting. One of the easier things to implement in the package (BRT) took over 3 years!

Then the mayor dropped the ball on siding with the people for the 71st and Riverside debacle where the previous mayor gifted a developer around $10 million worth of real estate for nearly free. That should've been corrected by the new mayor to differentiate himself as someone who supports the citizens and stands up for what is right. Giving away prime parkland on the river for a wasteful shopping center with massive parking crater is shameful. That's old Chicago-level corruption.

I guess the government wants to teach Tulsans an important lesson: Life sucks and then you die. Or more specifically Tulsa sucks and the city will keep throwing your money away to make sure it always will.

Please remember that "Vision 2025" and "Vision Tulsa" are totally separate programs.  The projects you reference are in Vision Tulsa.  Presently the only project I am involved with is the Zink Dam modifications which are actually nearing the advertisement for bids. 

Hope that helps.
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« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2020, 08:05:26 pm »

Presently the only project I am involved with is the Zink Dam modifications which are actually nearing the advertisement for bids. 

I saw the December schematics for the dam on the city engineerís webpage. Itís an incredible project.
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