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May 25, 2019, 01:41:36 am
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Author Topic: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel  (Read 1083 times)
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2019, 09:39:52 am »

I guess I don't understand why a downtown casino would be a negative thing. Sure you get some sketchy people in casinos, but you also get 20 something year olds and middle class couples there to have a good time. I would again point to what other large casinos have done to the surrounding areas of the Hard Rock and Riverspirit.

Pros:
1. it attracts a steady crowd of people to an area of downtown that is dead without a major concert happening
2. It adds another type of entertainment downtown
3. It would absolutely act as a catalyst for the area, if done correctly.
4. It fulfills a need of adding hotel rooms to downtown

Cons:
1. It attracts smokers and the occasional gambling addict to the area?
2. This proposed project is a long way off from actually happening.

I think it could be overall a good addition to downtown in some ways, but who would want to live next to one? Not that anyone does live by there now, but it could hamper residential development for blocks around it and would affect the types of businesses willing to open there. It would probably mostly siphon the younger/middle-age crowds from other area casinos and would probably bring in quite a few more bachelor/ette party crowds. However, I wouldn't say the "occasional gambling addict" because casinos make most of their profit from significant and steady group of habitual gamblers (around 15-25% of casino gamers provide close to 80% of profits). It'll be a constant steady presence of those people. And close proximity to some less than pleasant areas will cause some issues. Osage Casino has a slew of incidents every day, despite having a pretty hefty security team and cameras everywhere.

Casinos in an urban area like downtown is a somewhat untested formula and potentially a bad recipe or potentially genius way to concentrate the higher-end casino goers who might just want a fun night out if they made it a more glamorous upscale environment than the typical area casino. New Orleans had bad crime rates before and after the casino so maybe not a great example to look to in regards to how a casino could work in our downtown. If they do it, I hope they aim for boutique experience rather than typical trashy smoky gaming hall.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2019, 09:50:23 am »

By the way, does anyone else hate the incredibly misleading, basically false advertising by Osage Casino?

Quote from their advertising:

Quote
"Tulsa’s Downtown Casino Hotel"

https://www.google.com/search?q=downtown+tulsa%27s+casino&rlz=1C1GCEU_enUS819US821&oq=downtown+tulsa%27s+casino&aqs=chrome..69i57.7871j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

How is that not a complete lie? It is 4 miles outside of downtown in a rather remote/empty area. It is in no way a "Downtown Casino Hotel". People from far away will book thinking it is downtown. People seeing the signs that popped up everywhere thought that meant there was a new hotel downtown. Even after the new build, it is still one of the worst trashiest casinos around (Especially once the stank sets in permanently again). I tell people to especially avoid that one like the plague.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2019, 09:53:12 am »

AMC should start marketing itself:

Quote
"Tulsa’s Downtown Movie Theatre"

The Promenade should be:

Quote
"Tulsa’s Downtown Shopping Mall"

Love's should claim to be:

Quote
"Tulsa’s Downtown Truckers Stop"
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BKDotCom
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« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2019, 10:20:36 am »

Reasor's is downtown's grocery store.
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patric
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« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2019, 10:32:36 am »

By the way, does anyone else hate the incredibly misleading, basically false advertising by Osage Casino?

Obviously overlooking the desperate need for a downtown outlet mall.  Oh, wait...

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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2019, 11:13:23 am »

Reasor's is downtown's grocery store.

Haha.. At least Napoleon Dynamite's uncle could hit it with a football from the IDL.

People would probably even be a bit upset/misled if Reasor's said that. The casino one is just so blatantly misleading.
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ELG4America
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« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2019, 03:01:38 pm »

^Another reason to be (somewhat) in favor of an actual downtown casino.

I like others am not a huge proponent of casinos generally. However, if we're stuck with them, which we are, then we should make them work for us as much as possible. Using a casino to milk out-of-towners visiting for a concert out of more of their money sounds like a pretty decent plan to me. I agree that Southies and rurals won't go to a downtown casino much but as yet another entertainment option downtown I like it. I'd also point out that the tribes have enormous financial wells to draw on. Having them as major downtown developers means starting projects that can continue even if there is an economic downturn. Other firms may leave when things get tough. The tribes won't.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2019, 03:06:40 pm »

^Another reason to be (somewhat) in favor of an actual downtown casino.

I like others am not a huge proponent of casinos generally. However, if we're stuck with them, which we are, then we should make them work for us as much as possible. Using a casino to milk out-of-towners visiting for a concert out of more of their money sounds like a pretty decent plan to me. I agree that Southies and rurals won't go to a downtown casino much but as yet another entertainment option downtown I like it. I'd also point out that the tribes have enormous financial wells to draw on. Having them as major downtown developers means starting projects that can continue even if there is an economic downturn. Other firms may leave when things get tough. The tribes won't.

That's a really good point. To date, I haven't seen Creek Nation involved with downtown too much. It would be great to see them involved. Once they buy in with something like a hotel/food hall (even if there's no casino), it's probably a matter of time before they buy and/or develop something else. The primary disadvantage is very notable though: they pay no city taxes on their property.
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DowntownDan
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« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2019, 09:01:11 am »

By the way, does anyone else hate the incredibly misleading, basically false advertising by Osage Casino?

Quote from their advertising:

https://www.google.com/search?q=downtown+tulsa%27s+casino&rlz=1C1GCEU_enUS819US821&oq=downtown+tulsa%27s+casino&aqs=chrome..69i57.7871j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

How is that not a complete lie? It is 4 miles outside of downtown in a rather remote/empty area. It is in no way a "Downtown Casino Hotel". People from far away will book thinking it is downtown. People seeing the signs that popped up everywhere thought that meant there was a new hotel downtown. Even after the new build, it is still one of the worst trashiest casinos around (Especially once the stank sets in permanently again). I tell people to especially avoid that one like the plague.

I remember the first time I saw that billboard and thought, pancakes? I've had this conversation many times. If people from out of town fall for it, I can see a big PR mess on their hands.
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patric
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« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2019, 10:14:58 am »

The primary disadvantage is very notable though: they pay no city taxes on their property.

They could skate on a lot of things beside taxes:

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21718.0
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2019, 10:48:26 am »

They could skate on a lot of things beside taxes:

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21718.0

True, I guess they could put a smoke shop or something, but any of those sort of changes still have to go through an approval process involving the federal and local governments, so it isn't simple. There are already billboards all over downtown, but would be awful if they added a big video  board like that one.

Looking at the footprints of the casinos around, I wonder if opening something like this would be their way of getting a foot in the door in the area and could lead to a lot of expansion that would not necessarily be great for downtown growth (Imagine a drive thru Smoke Shop, bingo hall and big casino and the newly renamed "BOK RiverSpirt Casino Center").

On 5 blocks to the east/north of BOK Center, there's 4 lots that are all parking and 1 low-value warehouse. This is pure speculation beyond the 1 block in the plans, but I could see them eventually wanting to expand into several, if not all of those areas (a couple of which will be key connectors between the Central Business District and Arts District). https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tulsa,+OK/@36.1546204,-95.9938237,672a,35y,337.37h/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x87b692b8ddd12e8f:0xe76910c81bd96af7!8m2!3d36.1539816!4d-95.992775


Hopefully they have urban design and walkability in mind with anything they do but it is true that once it gets into trust, it would be out of the control of the City or local zoning codes. However, the city and state would probably have to be on board to allow any casino. But if they do, although it might be good in some ways, having a giant Riverspirt-esque casino downtown could increase the tackiness/kitsch (good for suburban visitors and tourism). It could really limit the type of developments that will be around it (I'm imagining a downtown entertainment district around the BOK center that somewhat resembles the ultra touristy part of Bricktown).
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