The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: Rattle Trap on May 12, 2019, 09:18:18 pm



Title: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: Rattle Trap on May 12, 2019, 09:18:18 pm
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/muscogee-creek-nation-exploring-building-downtown-tulsa-hotel/article_8da06a0a-c170-55cb-9931-b6ef5ce1f3a8.amp.html


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: Rattle Trap on May 13, 2019, 08:20:28 am
Probably could've included this on the downtown development or arena district thread. My bad ::)


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: swake on May 13, 2019, 10:41:11 am
So apparently these renderings were sent out as part of a survey of BOK Center patrons on May 10th asking for feedback showing a food hall and hotel. The survey mentions a 300 room hotel, but not a casino.

This can't be a coincidence.

https://www.fox23.com/news/survey-sent-to-bok-center-customers-about-possible-hotel-food-hall/948265171

(http://surveys.customintercept.com/CSL/2019/Tulsa_DowntownDevelopment_SMG/proposedvenue_v2.png)
(http://surveys.customintercept.com/CSL/2019/Tulsa_DowntownDevelopment_SMG/foodhall_v2.jpg)




Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on May 13, 2019, 02:50:25 pm
So apparently these renderings were sent out as part of a survey of BOK Center patrons on May 10th asking for feedback showing a food hall and hotel. The survey mentions a 300 room hotel, but not a casino.

This can't be a coincidence.

https://www.fox23.com/news/survey-sent-to-bok-center-customers-about-possible-hotel-food-hall/948265171




That looks pretty neat. I do wonder about putting the cart before the horse with all of this development that requires a big influx of residents without the residential filled up yet. BOK Center events aren't enough to sustain something like that. The places across from there seem pretty deserted most of the time after 5 or on weekend afternoons. There's very little residential right around the BOK center and parking is already viewed as tough near there, even though it is quite plentiful. If they take the block mentioned and turn it into that without a garage, it'll be tough to bring in many people as Tulsans are trained to be lazy about that sort of thing and want to park and walk in to eat quickly. I'm guessing this would do really well if there were a couple thousand or so more residents in the IDL.

Also, there's already a great food hall at 11th and Lewis that is popular and already utilizing a lot of the great up-and-coming talent/franchises in the city. I think it had something to do with the building at 1st and Greenwood cancelling the planned Food Hall. It would probably be tough to support 2 big food halls in midtown/downtown at this point. Eventually, the culture should shift to demand that, but I have a feeling South Tulsa will get one before too long and it'll further spread the market out. This one looks like it'll dwarf Mother Road Market too.


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: ELG4America on May 13, 2019, 03:01:15 pm
They need to wrap the whole 1st floor of the development in retail. The rendering seems to show a half block concrete dead space. If that is on both sides then we'll end up with another block that has an expensive new build on it but without walkability. Cimarex II.

Also I question the value of a 300 room hotel and food hall in that space. I too am concerned that the lunch market will not bear 10-12 new food vendors in downtown and the dinner market is definitely not there yet, exempting show nights. My counter is: combine this concept with the proposed convention center hotel of ~800 rooms. The two have natural synergies. Build on the Page-Belcher lot with access to existing parking. Expand the existing structure if necessary. Relocate the Federal Court and Post Office to new buildings elsewhere in downtown.


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: swake on May 13, 2019, 06:24:06 pm
They need to wrap the whole 1st floor of the development in retail. The rendering seems to show a half block concrete dead space. If that is on both sides then we'll end up with another block that has an expensive new build on it but without walkability. Cimarex II.

Also I question the value of a 300 room hotel and food hall in that space. I too am concerned that the lunch market will not bear 10-12 new food vendors in downtown and the dinner market is definitely not there yet, exempting show nights. My counter is: combine this concept with the proposed convention center hotel of ~800 rooms. The two have natural synergies. Build on the Page-Belcher lot with access to existing parking. Expand the existing structure if necessary. Relocate the Federal Court and Post Office to new buildings elsewhere in downtown.

Let's be honest. It's a casino project wrapped in the guise of a food hall and hotel to make it more palatable. The hotel and restaurants will fill themselves.


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: Rattle Trap on May 13, 2019, 09:16:35 pm
This may be comparing apples to oranges here but last time I was in New Orleans (new years in 2017) I went to their downtown casino and it was extremely busy, as was the area around the casino.

I went to Baltimore for work last year and their downtown casino was also quite busy. I know not everyone likes casinos but the reality is when a large casino pops up it brings people to the area. Look what the hard rock did for catoosa and what the river spirit did to that area. My only concern is over saturation of the casino market (if that's even possible) lol....

People love their casinos around here. If you build it they will come, right?


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: Townsend on May 14, 2019, 10:39:57 am
This may be comparing apples to oranges here but last time I was in New Orleans (new years in 2017) I went to their downtown casino and it was extremely busy, as was the area around the casino.

I went to Baltimore for work last year and their downtown casino was also quite busy. I know not everyone likes casinos but the reality is when a large casino pops up it brings people to the area. Look what the hard rock did for catoosa and what the river spirit did to that area. My only concern is over saturation of the casino market (if that's even possible) lol....

People love their casinos around here. If you build it they will come, right?

I went to the Hard Rock for a wedding a few weeks ago.  I'm not sure what kind of clientele would frequent a Tulsa downtown casino but the Hard Rock was depressing as Hell.

The stank and sadness were overwhelming.  I couldn't get out of there quickly enough.


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: hello on May 14, 2019, 02:43:34 pm
I went to the Hard Rock for a wedding a few weeks ago.  I'm not sure what kind of clientele would frequent a Tulsa downtown casino but the Hard Rock was depressing as Hell.

The stank and sadness were overwhelming.  I couldn't get out of there quickly enough.

Isn't that all Casinos? I would rather they not come to Downtown.


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: SXSW on May 14, 2019, 03:08:33 pm
Isn't that all Casinos? I would rather they not come to Downtown.

If there is a casino downtown I would rather see it by the BOK then in one of the other already-vibrant areas like the Blue Dome or Arts District.  I like ELG's idea of combining this with a convention center hotel on the Page Belcher site.


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: swake on May 14, 2019, 03:16:42 pm
I think it's a different entertainment option for downtown that will increase the number of people and amount of business downtown. How is that bad? And it's a downtown entertainment option that not that many cities have. The only downtown casinos I can think of in the entire central part of the country are in New Orleans and the riverboats in St Louis.

This preliminary design isn't great, but it doesn't blow up the street grid and it kills an entire block of surface parking. The area of downtown near the BOK is pretty dead at night when there's not an event, that would no longer be the case. And it adds a few hundred more hotel rooms to the area around the convention center. The city should press for a better design and be happy with a large hotel without its hand out for TIFF money.


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: DTowner on May 14, 2019, 03:18:06 pm
I agree with swake, this project is all about the casino.  That said, the land being talked about hasn’t even been purchased by the Muscogee (Creek) Nation, much less put into trust or approved for gaming.  Also keep in mind we are still waiting on the MCN to build that south Tulsa bridge over the Arkansas River, pay for part of a low water dam in Jenks, offer water taxis between River Spirit and River Walk, etc. 


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: erfalf on May 14, 2019, 05:17:36 pm
Yeah, I'm also a bit confused at the push back on a casino. Several major cities that aren't in Nevada have major casinos in their central business district. It's not like they attract  an undesirable lot or anything. Just because not everyone is a interested in going doesn't make it a bad idea.

My questions is, can they somehow make it non-smoking? That to me is the least desirable thing about Hard Rock.


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: Rattle Trap on May 14, 2019, 05:57:21 pm
I guess I don't understand why a downtown casino would be a negative thing. Sure you get some sketchy people in casinos, but you also get 20 something year olds and middle class couples there to have a good time. I would again point to what other large casinos have done to the surrounding areas of the Hard Rock and Riverspirit.

Pros:
1. it attracts a steady crowd of people to an area of downtown that is dead without a major concert happening
2. It adds another type of entertainment downtown
3. It would absolutely act as a catalyst for the area, if done correctly.
4. It fulfills a need of adding hotel rooms to downtown

Cons:
1. It attracts smokers and the occasional gambling addict to the area?
2. This proposed project is a long way off from actually happening.


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: DowntownDan on May 15, 2019, 07:36:11 am
This project is not the typical casino model and will bear little resemblance to Hard Rock or River Spirit. The elderly and the suburban and rural crowd who frequent the casinos won't go downtown to gamble (there is little room for their F-350 duallys and they may have to pay and walk a few blocks--unthinkable to a rural or suburbanite). I fully believe them that the casino will be a "small" casino and the focus will be the food hall and hotel. On big event nights (especially country music nights) the casino will likely be busy but will not be a big draw on a typical weekend. The food hall and hotel will be a more solid source of revenue. The casino will have a steady stream of business but the location won't justify a large gaming property. Different business model entirely. In my view, anything that takes up a parking lot downtown is a good thing.


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on May 15, 2019, 09:39:52 am
I guess I don't understand why a downtown casino would be a negative thing. Sure you get some sketchy people in casinos, but you also get 20 something year olds and middle class couples there to have a good time. I would again point to what other large casinos have done to the surrounding areas of the Hard Rock and Riverspirit.

Pros:
1. it attracts a steady crowd of people to an area of downtown that is dead without a major concert happening
2. It adds another type of entertainment downtown
3. It would absolutely act as a catalyst for the area, if done correctly.
4. It fulfills a need of adding hotel rooms to downtown

Cons:
1. It attracts smokers and the occasional gambling addict to the area?
2. This proposed project is a long way off from actually happening.

I think it could be overall a good addition to downtown in some ways, but who would want to live next to one? Not that anyone does live by there now, but it could hamper residential development for blocks around it and would affect the types of businesses willing to open there. It would probably mostly siphon the younger/middle-age crowds from other area casinos and would probably bring in quite a few more bachelor/ette party crowds. However, I wouldn't say the "occasional gambling addict" because casinos make most of their profit from significant and steady group of habitual gamblers (around 15-25% of casino gamers provide close to 80% of profits). It'll be a constant steady presence of those people. And close proximity to some less than pleasant areas will cause some issues. Osage Casino has a slew of incidents every day, despite having a pretty hefty security team and cameras everywhere.

Casinos in an urban area like downtown is a somewhat untested formula and potentially a bad recipe or potentially genius way to concentrate the higher-end casino goers who might just want a fun night out if they made it a more glamorous upscale environment than the typical area casino. New Orleans had bad crime rates before and after the casino so maybe not a great example to look to in regards to how a casino could work in our downtown. If they do it, I hope they aim for boutique experience rather than typical trashy smoky gaming hall.


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on May 15, 2019, 09:50:23 am
By the way, does anyone else hate the incredibly misleading, basically false advertising by Osage Casino?

Quote from their advertising:

Quote
"Tulsa’s Downtown Casino Hotel"

https://www.google.com/search?q=downtown+tulsa%27s+casino&rlz=1C1GCEU_enUS819US821&oq=downtown+tulsa%27s+casino&aqs=chrome..69i57.7871j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

How is that not a complete lie? It is 4 miles outside of downtown in a rather remote/empty area. It is in no way a "Downtown Casino Hotel". People from far away will book thinking it is downtown. People seeing the signs that popped up everywhere thought that meant there was a new hotel downtown. Even after the new build, it is still one of the worst trashiest casinos around (Especially once the stank sets in permanently again). I tell people to especially avoid that one like the plague.


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on May 15, 2019, 09:53:12 am
AMC should start marketing itself:

Quote
"Tulsa’s Downtown Movie Theatre"

The Promenade should be:

Quote
"Tulsa’s Downtown Shopping Mall"

Love's should claim to be:

Quote
"Tulsa’s Downtown Truckers Stop"


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: BKDotCom on May 15, 2019, 10:20:36 am
Reasor's is downtown's grocery store.


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: patric on May 15, 2019, 10:32:36 am
By the way, does anyone else hate the incredibly misleading, basically false advertising by Osage Casino?

Obviously overlooking the desperate need for a downtown outlet mall.  Oh, wait...



Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on May 15, 2019, 11:13:23 am
Reasor's is downtown's grocery store.

Haha.. At least Napoleon Dynamite's uncle could hit it with a football from the IDL.

People would probably even be a bit upset/misled if Reasor's said that. The casino one is just so blatantly misleading.


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: ELG4America on May 16, 2019, 03:01:38 pm
^Another reason to be (somewhat) in favor of an actual downtown casino.

I like others am not a huge proponent of casinos generally. However, if we're stuck with them, which we are, then we should make them work for us as much as possible. Using a casino to milk out-of-towners visiting for a concert out of more of their money sounds like a pretty decent plan to me. I agree that Southies and rurals won't go to a downtown casino much but as yet another entertainment option downtown I like it. I'd also point out that the tribes have enormous financial wells to draw on. Having them as major downtown developers means starting projects that can continue even if there is an economic downturn. Other firms may leave when things get tough. The tribes won't.


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on May 16, 2019, 03:06:40 pm
^Another reason to be (somewhat) in favor of an actual downtown casino.

I like others am not a huge proponent of casinos generally. However, if we're stuck with them, which we are, then we should make them work for us as much as possible. Using a casino to milk out-of-towners visiting for a concert out of more of their money sounds like a pretty decent plan to me. I agree that Southies and rurals won't go to a downtown casino much but as yet another entertainment option downtown I like it. I'd also point out that the tribes have enormous financial wells to draw on. Having them as major downtown developers means starting projects that can continue even if there is an economic downturn. Other firms may leave when things get tough. The tribes won't.

That's a really good point. To date, I haven't seen Creek Nation involved with downtown too much. It would be great to see them involved. Once they buy in with something like a hotel/food hall (even if there's no casino), it's probably a matter of time before they buy and/or develop something else. The primary disadvantage is very notable though: they pay no city taxes on their property.


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: DowntownDan on May 17, 2019, 09:01:11 am
By the way, does anyone else hate the incredibly misleading, basically false advertising by Osage Casino?

Quote from their advertising:

https://www.google.com/search?q=downtown+tulsa%27s+casino&rlz=1C1GCEU_enUS819US821&oq=downtown+tulsa%27s+casino&aqs=chrome..69i57.7871j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

How is that not a complete lie? It is 4 miles outside of downtown in a rather remote/empty area. It is in no way a "Downtown Casino Hotel". People from far away will book thinking it is downtown. People seeing the signs that popped up everywhere thought that meant there was a new hotel downtown. Even after the new build, it is still one of the worst trashiest casinos around (Especially once the stank sets in permanently again). I tell people to especially avoid that one like the plague.

I remember the first time I saw that billboard and thought, pancakes? I've had this conversation many times. If people from out of town fall for it, I can see a big PR mess on their hands.


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: patric on May 17, 2019, 10:14:58 am
The primary disadvantage is very notable though: they pay no city taxes on their property.

They could skate on a lot of things beside taxes:

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21718.0


Title: Re: Muscogee (Creek) Nation exploring building downtown Tulsa hotel
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on May 21, 2019, 10:48:26 am
They could skate on a lot of things beside taxes:

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21718.0

True, I guess they could put a smoke shop or something, but any of those sort of changes still have to go through an approval process involving the federal and local governments, so it isn't simple. There are already billboards all over downtown, but would be awful if they added a big video  board like that one.

Looking at the footprints of the casinos around, I wonder if opening something like this would be their way of getting a foot in the door in the area and could lead to a lot of expansion that would not necessarily be great for downtown growth (Imagine a drive thru Smoke Shop, bingo hall and big casino and the newly renamed "BOK RiverSpirt Casino Center").

On 5 blocks to the east/north of BOK Center, there's 4 lots that are all parking and 1 low-value warehouse. This is pure speculation beyond the 1 block in the plans, but I could see them eventually wanting to expand into several, if not all of those areas (a couple of which will be key connectors between the Central Business District and Arts District). https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tulsa,+OK/@36.1546204,-95.9938237,672a,35y,337.37h/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x87b692b8ddd12e8f:0xe76910c81bd96af7!8m2!3d36.1539816!4d-95.992775 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tulsa,+OK/@36.1546204,-95.9938237,672a,35y,337.37h/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x87b692b8ddd12e8f:0xe76910c81bd96af7!8m2!3d36.1539816!4d-95.992775)


Hopefully they have urban design and walkability in mind with anything they do but it is true that once it gets into trust, it would be out of the control of the City or local zoning codes. However, the city and state would probably have to be on board to allow any casino. But if they do, although it might be good in some ways, having a giant Riverspirt-esque casino downtown could increase the tackiness/kitsch (good for suburban visitors and tourism). It could really limit the type of developments that will be around it (I'm imagining a downtown entertainment district around the BOK center that somewhat resembles the ultra touristy part of Bricktown).