A grassroots organization focused on the intelligent and sustainable development, preservation and revitalization of Tulsa.
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
April 10, 2021, 10:54:17 pm
Pages: 1 ... 54 55 [56] 57   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75  (Read 285589 times)
LandArchPoke
Civic Leader
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 489



« Reply #825 on: April 01, 2021, 01:38:19 pm »

One would think that with a 6 million person market we could support more than one (mediocre) shopping mall.  ;-)

You have a really hard time reading don't you? Maybe a comprehension problem too given what I said.

The extended market (inclusive of OKC, etc.) Simon owns Penn Square right? Outside of Classen Curve that's about the only mall/'lifestyle center' alive in OKC right now too. What other major regional centers do they own too nearby huh? They own Battlefield Mall in Springfield - SWMO's best mall. The only center they don't own in the area between KC and Dallas of similar size/quality is NWA Promenade which Brookfield owns. They do control the Tulsa market, the greater regional market, and most markets around the nation. It's why they get away with what they do. If you control the market why would you build more even if the market could support it and dilute your revenues given how retail leases are structured on sales huh? Not rocket science.

Valuation is not the same as having cash on hand. There's lots of examples of companies with sky high values with no assets or cash on hand. WeWork is not the same as Simon, no sh*t - but in terms of what you're trying to say it is relevant. Something with a sky high valuation with no assets or cash. You specifically sited valuation which has zero to do with what the other person was talking about in the first place. As usual you try to spin something to try to make someone else feel dumb when you're not even talking about the same thing. You just like to try and troll people without adding anything of substance to any conversation.

Here is what is actually relevant to what was said - not your irrelevant 'valuation' spout off. Simon was burning a lot of cash even pre covid. While it has improved a bit as of late.

Cash on Hand - Simon

2017 - $1,482 million
2018 - $669 million
2019 - $514 million
2020 - $1,012 million

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4371752-simon-property-group-dilution-unavoidable-sell-now

Equity has steadily decreased over the past several years (which includes assets and not just cash) and Simon has an exploding debt to equity ratio - especially from 2018 to 2020.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2021, 02:07:19 pm by LandArchPoke » Logged
Oil Capital
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1248


WWW
« Reply #826 on: April 01, 2021, 02:12:25 pm »

You have a really hard time reading don't you? Maybe a comprehension problem too given what I said.

The extended market (inclusive of OKC, etc.) Simon owns Penn Square right? Outside of Classen Curve that's about the only mall/'lifestyle center' alive in OKC right now too. What other major regional centers do they own too nearby huh? They own Battlefield Mall in Springfield - SWMO's best mall. The only center they don't own in the area between KC and Dallas of similar size/quality is NWA Promenade which Brookfield owns. They do control the Tulsa market, the greater regional market, and most markets around the nation. It's why they get away with what they do. If you control the market why would you build more even if the market could support it and dilute your revenues given how retail leases are structured on sales huh? Not rocket science.

Valuation is not the same as having cash on hand. There's lots of examples of companies with sky high values with no assets or cash on hand. WeWork is not the same as Simon, no sh*t - but in terms of what you're trying to say it is relevant. Something with a sky high valuation with no assets or cash. You specifically sited valuation which has zero to do with what the other person was talking about in the first place. As usual you try to spin something to try to make someone else feel dumb when you're not even talking about the same thing. You just like to try and troll people without adding anything of substance to any conversation.

Here is what is actually relevant to what was said - not your irrelevant 'valuation' spout off. Simon was burning a lot of cash even pre covid. While it has improved a bit as of late.

Cash on Hand - Simon

2017 - $1,482 million
2018 - $669 million
2019 - $514 million
2020 - $1,012 million

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4371752-simon-property-group-dilution-unavoidable-sell-now

Equity has steadily decreased over the past several years (which includes assets and not just cash) and Simon has an exploding debt to equity ratio - especially from 2018 to 2020.

Relax.  You take yourself waaayyy too seriously.  But thanks for providing additional evidence that Simon is in fact not broke. 
Logged

 
LandArchPoke
Civic Leader
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 489



« Reply #827 on: April 01, 2021, 02:24:45 pm »

Relax.  You take yourself waaayyy too seriously.  But thanks for providing additional evidence that Simon is in fact not broke.  

LOL! You confused me with you, I'm not the one on here being an as* to people posting their opinions non stop.

As usual now that you look dumb you go to your fall back of harping on one word like 'broke' that's an opinion to try to glen some sense of you were right all along, right?

Since you're the authority on what makes something broke - why don't you give us the metrics that would make a company broke versus not broke to actually prove your point - mr. all knowing? That's right, you'd never bother doing something like that because it would require reasonable discussion.

You know it's subjective and you just like to be an as* to people on here over things like that for no reason even when you have no idea what you're talking about and you never actually make a point or prove anything. Hints my continuing opinion you add nothing of value on here other than to troll people. I'd rather see more people post opinions and discuss them reasonably then have one person here trying to be rude to everyone and keep more people from posting more often.  

Hate to break it to you, but what you said isn't anymore right than what the first poster said. They're both opinions. They can both be right because broke can mean something different to you than someone else. If you want to be 'right' like you always do why don't you support it. You're not right just because you're more condescending, for no reason, than everyone else.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2021, 02:34:45 pm by LandArchPoke » Logged
Vision 2025
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 829


WWW
« Reply #828 on: April 02, 2021, 10:34:38 am »


What TIF money?  A TIF only generates $ when the assessed value goes up which typically comes with improvements to the property or (if included) sales tax collected in the area is diverted to authorized improvements. 
Logged

Vision 2025 Program Director - know the facts, www.Vision2025.info
LandArchPoke
Civic Leader
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 489



« Reply #829 on: April 02, 2021, 11:29:44 am »

What TIF money?  A TIF only generates $ when the assessed value goes up which typically comes with improvements to the property or (if included) sales tax collected in the area is diverted to authorized improvements. 

TIF's are usually through sales taxes, BID's are usually property tax based. The downtown ballpark for example was a BID, which are generally less risky especially when there are already improvements in the area.

Jenks did approve a TIF for this area in order to do the "necessary" infrastructure improvements. They also sold bonds in order to front the costs on this and other improvements around that site. The turnpike authority did some of it but the City of Jenks built several new roads and some other infrastructure improvements. That is why TIFs are so dangerous to cities because they have to front the cost in hope that whatever is built there will collect enough sales tax in the future to pay for the debt of building the new infrastructure upfront. Kansas City is a prime example of how these can go very wrong. If Simon never finishes this, Jenks will take a hit because they've budgeted for revenues from that mall in order to pay debt obligations in the future. 

https://www.jenkstribune.com/3523/
Logged
Vision 2025
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 829


WWW
« Reply #830 on: April 02, 2021, 02:59:06 pm »

TIF's are usually through sales taxes, BID's are usually property tax based. The downtown ballpark for example was a BID, which are generally less risky especially when there are already improvements in the area.

Jenks did approve a TIF for this area in order to do the "necessary" infrastructure improvements. They also sold bonds in order to front the costs on this and other improvements around that site. The turnpike authority did some of it but the City of Jenks built several new roads and some other infrastructure improvements. That is why TIFs are so dangerous to cities because they have to front the cost in hope that whatever is built there will collect enough sales tax in the future to pay for the debt of building the new infrastructure upfront. Kansas City is a prime example of how these can go very wrong. If Simon never finishes this, Jenks will take a hit because they've budgeted for revenues from that mall in order to pay debt obligations in the future.  

https://www.jenkstribune.com/3523/
Not sure where you are getting your information about TIF's or Jenks but you are not accurate.  Jenks sold no bonds against the TIF.  

Funding for the expansion of Aquarium Drive was a Voter approved Bond issue in combination with the West Main Street Improvement project and the Turnpike Authority paid for the ramps and the majority of the Elm intersection improvements.  

As confirmed in the article posted, the City only approved the reimbursement of TIF funds and Sales Tax generated by the actual construction to the Developer, but again if there is no increment (Tax Increment Financing is a diversion of the incremental increase from the pre-project taxes and the post project taxes to be used for approved expenditures as identified in the TIF plan).  

This is the beauty of TIF funding for development, when properly executed it places the financial risk on the developer.  If they want public funding, they have to deliver, as is the case in Jenks, at Tulsa Hills and most others.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2021, 03:02:40 pm by Vision 2025 » Logged

Vision 2025 Program Director - know the facts, www.Vision2025.info
LandArchPoke
Civic Leader
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 489



« Reply #831 on: April 02, 2021, 10:24:58 pm »

Not sure where you are getting your information about TIF's or Jenks but you are not accurate.  Jenks sold no bonds against the TIF.  

Funding for the expansion of Aquarium Drive was a Voter approved Bond issue in combination with the West Main Street Improvement project and the Turnpike Authority paid for the ramps and the majority of the Elm intersection improvements.  

As confirmed in the article posted, the City only approved the reimbursement of TIF funds and Sales Tax generated by the actual construction to the Developer, but again if there is no increment (Tax Increment Financing is a diversion of the incremental increase from the pre-project taxes and the post project taxes to be used for approved expenditures as identified in the TIF plan).  

This is the beauty of TIF funding for development, when properly executed it places the financial risk on the developer.  If they want public funding, they have to deliver, as is the case in Jenks, at Tulsa Hills and most others.



If they structured it where the developer fronts the costs and are reimbursed later that was smart of Jenks. There's a lot of places that don't do that and they put taxpayers on the line in order to get the developer interested. Kansas City has had budget issues for several years due to their TIF's downtown with Cordish and it's happened many other places.

Simon still got people sold enough in order to pass the bond issue and get the Turnpike Authority to build the ramps... that's still coming out of people's pockets one way or another. Would they have done that if Simon wasn't planning to build there? Who knows. There's been a significant amount of money spent with the hope and prayer that the project is finished.

Frankly, it might be better for Jenks long-term if Simon walks away and they can incrementally develop the site more densely like what is happening north of the turnpike.
Logged
Red Arrow
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 10381


WWW
« Reply #832 on: April 04, 2021, 10:55:55 am »

Simon still got people sold enough in order to pass the bond issue and get the Turnpike Authority to build the ramps... that's still coming out of people's pockets one way or another.

I think the Turnpike Authority is recovering their cost with the Plate Pay that charges $1.70 for anyone exiting there going westbound.  Pike Pass from Memorial to Peoria-Elm is $0.75.
Logged

 
LandArchPoke
Civic Leader
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 489



« Reply #833 on: April 04, 2021, 11:37:36 am »

I think the Turnpike Authority is recovering their cost with the Plate Pay that charges $1.70 for anyone exiting there going westbound.  Pike Pass from Memorial to Peoria-Elm is $0.75.

That's insane.. I did not know that. I don't see how that is even legal to charge that much more to exit there versus any other exit on the Turnpike? Seems like price gouging.

At the end of the day the people on the hook for those investments are citizens. It gets passed along one way or another.
Logged
Red Arrow
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 10381


WWW
« Reply #834 on: April 04, 2021, 12:54:33 pm »

That's insane.. I did not know that. I don't see how that is even legal to charge that much more to exit there versus any other exit on the Turnpike? Seems like price gouging.

At the end of the day the people on the hook for those investments are citizens. It gets passed along one way or another.

The reason excuse I heard was that it costs a lot to track down the car by the plate and send out a bill.  They should have just left the exact change machines there which were only a little bit more than the Pike Pass rate.

Citizens and consumers pay for everything in the end.
Logged

 
dbacksfan 2.0
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1557


« Reply #835 on: April 04, 2021, 02:05:16 pm »

The reason excuse I heard was that it costs a lot to track down the car by the plate and send out a bill.  They should have just left the exact change machines there which were only a little bit more than the Pike Pass rate.

Citizens and consumers pay for everything in the end.

It costs a lot? What, they only have one person with a magnifying glass to see what state the tag if from? Paying for dial up to connect to other DMV's?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 02:08:21 pm by dbacksfan 2.0 » Logged
Red Arrow
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 10381


WWW
« Reply #836 on: April 04, 2021, 05:26:21 pm »

It costs a lot? What, they only have one person with a magnifying glass to see what state the tag if from? Paying for dial up to connect to other DMV's?

I didn't say I agree.
Logged

 
dbacksfan 2.0
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1557


« Reply #837 on: April 04, 2021, 06:33:35 pm »

I didn't say I agree.


Never thought you did. I would say I'm surprised, but I'm not. I just figured the high cost was to pay the overtime for one person that looked at the photos of tags, like the one person they had that did birth certificates replacement copies or God forbid you had to have a lost title search for a car.

I just wish that my California Fastrak tag worked when I've been back but it only works in California.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 07:00:56 pm by dbacksfan 2.0 » Logged
Red Arrow
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 10381


WWW
« Reply #838 on: April 04, 2021, 07:22:14 pm »

Never thought you did. I would say I'm surprised, but I'm not. I just figured the high cost was to pay the overtime for one person that looked at the photos of tags, like the one person they had that did birth certificates replacement copies or God forbid you had to have a lost title search for a car.

I just wish that my California Fastrak tag worked when I've been back but it only works in California.

I think my Pike Pass works in TX and KS but I'm not sure.

Plate Pay is an exercise in convenience to not have a Pike Pass and gouge out of state personnel.
Logged

 
LandArchPoke
Civic Leader
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 489



« Reply #839 on: April 04, 2021, 09:34:09 pm »

I think my Pike Pass works in TX and KS but I'm not sure.

Plate Pay is an exercise in convenience to not have a Pike Pass and gouge out of state personnel.

It does. At one point I have both a Pike Pass and Toll Tag on my car (NXTX version) and was being double charged each time I went through a toll both in OK or TX lol.

Texas is completely plate pay now too. There's definitely no reason why plate pay here should cost that much more other than what you said is it's probably an excuse to over charge people.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 54 55 [56] 57   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

 
  Hosted by TulsaConnect and Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
 

Mission

 

"TulsaNow's Mission is to help Tulsa become the most vibrant, diverse, sustainable and prosperous city of our size. We achieve this by focusing on the development of Tulsa's distinctive identity and economic growth around a dynamic, urban core, complemented by a constellation of livable, thriving communities."
more...

 

Contact

 

2210 S Main St.
Tulsa, OK 74114
(918) 409-2669
info@tulsanow.org