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December 12, 2019, 12:15:42 pm
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Author Topic: Tulsa Public Schools Spending  (Read 106324 times)
rebound
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« Reply #495 on: March 13, 2018, 09:40:24 am »

I guess being semi-anonymous on the internet raises my level of snark.   Although if you knew me, I can't say I have that much tact in real life either.

I guess I have several questions that I think are relevant before I want to pay anyone more.   And yes, I have never found that just throwing money at a problem produces any better results.  (I also have issue with "haven't gotten a raise in 10 years"  which is a blatant lie.   They get raises every year based on experience, we have all seen the sheet.)


1.  How do I reward good employees (in this case teachers) and get rid of bad ones.   At this point you can't.  Through my children I have seen good, bad, and some that were adequate but just going through the motions.

2.  Why do all teachers get the same pay?   30k a year might be fine if someone teaches 2nd grade.   It takes a much higher skill set to teach high school algebra/chemistry/etc.  
While I also understand that some teachers claim to work long hours grading and creating lesson plans, I can't imagine that in 3rd grade it takes long to work out if they correctly circled the subject or added the numbers correctly.

3.  Somewhere in the last 10 years we have introduced all day kindergarten and pre-K.   How much of the budget was diverted to this subsidized childcare versus existing teacher salaries?

4.  Does every kid really need a chromebook/ipad?   Could this money be better spent?


On another note, maybe we should also take some time to reevaluate what schools should do.

Schools do little to teach children about the real world.   I couldn't balance a checkbook or tell you how a car loan worked when I left high school.   Now they have done away with shop/etc.   I use those necessary life skills way more than I use what philum an animal is in or drawing a electron diagram.

Seventy [percent] of incoming college freshman told us that they have never been taught basic financial literacy skills. Yet, they are signing up for student loans, opening credit cards and making decisions that will have a serious impact on the rest of their lives.

Those are all good points, and I do think there are a number of topics that need to be addressed related to how we teach, teach comp and retention, and on developing actual life skills (checkbook balancing, etc..)  But (again, IMHO) we can't do any of that effectively unless we have good people working in the schools.


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TeeDub
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« Reply #496 on: March 13, 2018, 09:57:39 am »

Especially since we as communities help pay for substantial capital projects (what I would expect to be the second largest cost).

I had been told that this number was skewed.

Something about only being able to use your ad valorem property taxes on "things" and not on personnel.
 

Those are all good points, and I do think there are a number of topics that need to be addressed related to how we teach, teach comp and retention, and on developing actual life skills (checkbook balancing, etc..)  But (again, IMHO) we can't do any of that effectively unless we have good people working in the schools.




So I should just throw money at the problem without addressing any concerns?    How is that supposed to work again?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 09:59:34 am by TeeDub » Logged
rebound
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« Reply #497 on: March 13, 2018, 10:36:54 am »

So I should just throw money at the problem without addressing any concerns?    How is that supposed to work again?

Yes.  Smiley

Seriously though, yes.   We have a burning platform, and to try to fix all of that before we do anything about salaries is a non-starter.   Get the money for salaries and start paying for good teachers.   Then work on the rest.  (If at the core we don't have good teachers, nothing else matters...)

Another point of savings which you didn't mention is the excessive number of school districts we have.  We could cut quite a bit of administrative overhead by coming rural district management.  (Not all the actual schools, but the admin side.   In rural areas, there is only so far we can expect kids to travel for school.  But not every school building needs its own Superintendent, etc.)

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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #498 on: March 13, 2018, 03:33:52 pm »


So I should just throw money at the problem without addressing any concerns?    How is that supposed to work again?




Yes.  When one is dealing with arterial bleeding, you don't care about a mildly skinned elbow until the big problem is fixed.


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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I donít share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
Conan71
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« Reply #499 on: March 13, 2018, 04:55:08 pm »

First, read Cannon's post.  I may have assumed incorrectly that you are/were just being a troll and poking the bear.  If not, well, "bless your heart".

We have a situation where due to low pay and related issues we have been forced over the last decade to hire teachers that "normally" we would not hire.  We need better quality teachers to enter the workforce.   The money to do this could easily be had by reinstating the 7% production tax.  After that, once the funnel starts to fill up again, we can begin weeding out the teachers that don't measure up.  But we can't do that until the mechanics change, and that starts will higher pay for the job.   We didn't get here overnight, and we won't fix it all overnight, but the baseline long-term issue is teacher pay and school funding.  Fix that, and we can begin to work getting this back on track.

 

This is where my attitude finally changed on teacher pay.  For years, I've argued given the 9 month work calendar as well as a reasonably good pension system that the compensation isn't all that bad broken down into an hourly pay rate.  I'd never really considered competitive pay in neighboring states driving away top talent and then we are now hiring teachers who are either less qualified or who have very questionable qualifications.  I think teachers have been patient through every failed attempt at raising their pay and I don't blame them for finally issuing an ultimatum in the form of a walk out.  Perhaps legislators will finally get off their duffs and realize they are serious instead of pulling the same crap session after session.
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TeeDub
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« Reply #500 on: March 14, 2018, 07:29:33 am »

... we are now hiring teachers who are either less qualified or who have very questionable qualifications....

The union wouldn't allow people in with "questionable" qualifications to compete with their members.   They have mandated a college degree and certifications.   There isn't any getting around that.

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swake
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« Reply #501 on: March 14, 2018, 08:38:26 am »

The union wouldn't allow people in with "questionable" qualifications to compete with their members.   They have mandated a college degree and certifications.   There isn't any getting around that.



The union, such as it is in this state, doesn't hire anyone, the districts do. And you aren't paying attention, certification is no longer required in this state. A degree still is, but this is what all those "emergency" certifications are about. Oklahoma districts hired 1,500 new teachers this year alone that are NOT certified and do NOT have the required training as a teacher.
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TeeDub
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« Reply #502 on: March 14, 2018, 09:21:24 am »

The union, such as it is in this state, doesn't hire anyone, the districts do. And you aren't paying attention, certification is no longer required in this state. A degree still is, but this is what all those "emergency" certifications are about. Oklahoma districts hired 1,500 new teachers this year alone that are NOT certified and do NOT have the required training as a teacher.

Strange that if certifications aren't required, they still call them "emergency certifications" and charge for them.

http://sde.ok.gov/sde/emergency-certification-administrator-use-only
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erfalf
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« Reply #503 on: March 14, 2018, 11:22:25 am »

Truly in Oklahoma "the Union" doesn't hold that much power. Heck, I believe there are a handful of unions that teachers have the option of joining (option being the key word). I think OEA is the biggest, but it's more like an advocacy group lobbying on behalf of teachers than they are representation like FOP or something.

I believe alternative certification has been around for some time. My wife looked into it a few years back because she had a BS just not in the right field. It's not easy or quick or cheap. In my opinion it shows a level of dedication to change careers midstream like that and go for broke being a teacher. I'm ok with alternative.

Emergency certification however wreaks of desperation. While it may yield some good teachers, I would dare to say the odds aren't that great. Of course I don't know what the odds of getting good teachers through the traditional route is. I've seen both types in my own school and it's a pretty solid school district. I would say 75% good, 20% you hope selectively leave for new employment at some point, and 5% that just need to find another occupation. Again, this is from my own personal experiences, no scientific process, just an opinion.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #504 on: March 14, 2018, 11:31:43 am »

The union, such as it is in this state, doesn't hire anyone, the districts do. And you aren't paying attention, certification is no longer required in this state. A degree still is, but this is what all those "emergency" certifications are about. Oklahoma districts hired 1,500 new teachers this year alone that are NOT certified and do NOT have the required training as a teacher.


That program allows temporary emergency certification.  BS degree of some sort appears to be still required, plus the teaching specific courses must be taken and regular certification must be achieved within 3 years.  No renewal of temp emergency certification allowed.

It is a kick the can down the road method of legislative action.  Meaning NO action by the failures in the legislature and Mary Failin'.

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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I donít share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
TeeDub
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« Reply #505 on: March 14, 2018, 11:38:45 am »


Emergency certifications have been around for years.   Nothing new.  My mother did it in the 90s as they were short math and science teachers.

Just out of curiosity, does their walkout just raise the minimum salaries?   What about school districts that already pay more than that?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 11:48:36 am by TeeDub » Logged
swake
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« Reply #506 on: March 14, 2018, 12:05:45 pm »

Emergency certifications have been around for years.   Nothing new.  My mother did it in the 90s as they were short math and science teachers.

Just out of curiosity, does their walkout just raise the minimum salaries?   What about school districts that already pay more than that?

Emergency certifications are not the same thing as Alternative certifications.

http://sde.ok.gov/sde/alternative-paths-teacher-certification

http://sde.ok.gov/sde/emergency-certification-administrator-use-only

And they have only been used recently. Just six years ago only 32 emergency certifications were granted, this school year it was 1,429.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/education/teacher-shortage-oklahoma-hits-record-for-emergency-certifications-after-just/article_63d0250f-1530-56d6-937e-d45ef4410eb5.html
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TeeDub
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« Reply #507 on: March 14, 2018, 12:31:26 pm »


Emergancy certifications aren't the only problems.

http://www.tulsapeople.com/Tulsa-People/February-2016/The-Teaching-Sieve-The-price-of-public-service-part-I/

Although science, technology, math and engineering (STEM) are educational buzzwords these days, in 2014 Oklahoma colleges produced only four certified physics teachers, 14 certified science teachers and 74 certified math teachers, according to TPS.
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swake
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« Reply #508 on: March 14, 2018, 12:36:41 pm »

Emergancy certifications aren't the only problems.

http://www.tulsapeople.com/Tulsa-People/February-2016/The-Teaching-Sieve-The-price-of-public-service-part-I/

Although science, technology, math and engineering (STEM) are educational buzzwords these days, in 2014 Oklahoma colleges produced only four certified physics teachers, 14 certified science teachers and 74 certified math teachers, according to TPS.


It's not shocking that when college students choose careers, they might not choose one that pays so little. Not a point in your favor.
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erfalf
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« Reply #509 on: March 14, 2018, 12:43:57 pm »

I have always been proud of my hometown (at least since graduating college) school district. They in general are some of the most resourceful and conservative minded individuals.

I was honestly starting to loose faith in the teacher's leadership when I saw the demands from OEA with basically no suggestions on how to meet any of them.

Then BISD leadership gets together and comes up with a plan that I think is far more level headed and likely to com to fruition because they don't look like a crazed group of pitchfork carting loonies asking for the moon.


Asking for $6k raises, restoring school formula funding (something they have been litigating for a while now) and some additional core services funding (non-education related). All this to be paid for with 5% GPT, Income Tax Deduction Caps, $1/pack cigarette tax, .03/gal gas and .06/gal diesel tax, and an additional lodging tax among other things.

It may not be perfect but it's a damn site better than anyone else has been proposing and I am proud of my district for having the resolve to put it out there and act like adults.

They also decided that they are allowing the walk out to last for 10 school days, and discussing ways to minimize the extra days necessary to make up for it.

They have a website and everything apparently.
https://sites.google.com/view/thetimeisnowok/home

Coverage from KTUL:
http://bit.ly/2Inkle5
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