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November 22, 2019, 01:33:26 am
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Author Topic: Tulsa Public Schools Spending  (Read 105337 times)
Conan71
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« Reply #510 on: March 14, 2018, 08:31:05 pm »

The union wouldn't allow people in with "questionable" qualifications to compete with their members.   They have mandated a college degree and certifications.   There isn't any getting around that.



I know plenty of people who skated through their undergrad.  Aside from that, I've also had teachers who were brilliant mathematicians or scientists but crummy at conveying that knowledge to others.  Having a degree doesn't qualify someone to be a teacher.  Having a law degree doesn't qualify someone to teach English just as someone with a degree in math or science isn't necessarily qualified to teach it if they haven't gone through any courses or specific training to be an educator.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #511 on: March 16, 2018, 07:58:20 am »

Emergancy certifications aren't the only problems.

http://www.tulsapeople.com/Tulsa-People/February-2016/The-Teaching-Sieve-The-price-of-public-service-part-I/

Although science, technology, math and engineering (STEM) are educational buzzwords these days, in 2014 Oklahoma colleges produced only four certified physics teachers, 14 certified science teachers and 74 certified math teachers, according to TPS.



Have tried to get into part time teaching of STEM before and was told I was not "qualified".  This was before the current emergency stuff going on, so maybe should look into it again.  Would like to teach some math/electronics/physics...

Not 'qualified' for public schools even though I have taught STEM as college instructor....

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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

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erfalf
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« Reply #512 on: March 16, 2018, 11:38:13 am »

I know plenty of people who skated through their undergrad.  Aside from that, I've also had teachers who were brilliant mathematicians or scientists but crummy at conveying that knowledge to others.  Having a degree doesn't qualify someone to be a teacher.  Having a law degree doesn't qualify someone to teach English just as someone with a degree in math or science isn't necessarily qualified to teach it if they haven't gone through any courses or specific training to be an educator.

This has long been a frustration of mine. People thinking that a degree or something somehow entitles them to something. I understand teaching is different in many regards, but by and large hiring and retention decisions are made based on whether or not a person can do the job, not what degree they had. While this may be a way for employers to limit potential candidates, it is largely a non-factor. Like if someone requires a college degree the assumption is NOT that every candidate will be brilliant, just that they at minimum have a general understanding of a broad array of topics.

In the flip side, while emergency certificates may yield many truly unqualified teachers, it can also yield some keepers.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #513 on: March 16, 2018, 11:44:27 am »

This has long been a frustration of mine. People thinking that a degree or something somehow entitles them to something. I understand teaching is different in many regards, but by and large hiring and retention decisions are made based on whether or not a person can do the job, not what degree they had. While this may be a way for employers to limit potential candidates, it is largely a non-factor. Like if someone requires a college degree the assumption is NOT that every candidate will be brilliant, just that they at minimum have a general understanding of a broad array of topics.

In the flip side, while emergency certificates may yield many truly unqualified teachers, it can also yield some keepers.



If ya do it right, ya learn some stuff in college...but the bigger lesson that will hopefully stick tight is that ya learn how to learn.  Then you can become truly valuable!


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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I donít share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
Conan71
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« Reply #514 on: March 16, 2018, 01:46:46 pm »



If ya do it right, ya learn some stuff in college...but the bigger lesson that will hopefully stick tight is that ya learn how to learn.  Then you can become truly valuable!




What I learned from business classes: "Collect fast and pay slow."

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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #515 on: March 19, 2018, 07:17:05 am »

Einstein probably would have been a crappy middle school science teacher.  There is no doubt he had the knowledge, but learning to convey the knowledge that is at grade level in a form that the student are likely to retain is a different animal.  Controlling a herd of children is a different animal.  Solving the mysteries of space-time and the creation of the universe is one thing - keeping the attention of a 10 year old is something else entirely.

That's one of the reasons we started requiring certification of teachers.  There is also the desire to minimize nepotism/cronyism, teaching of bogus material, and the inadvertent hiring of horrible people.  Plus, this is how bureaucracy works.  It isn't necessarily a bad thing.  Try getting a job as a software engineer at Google without a degree, or as a aerospace engineer at Boeing.  Even if you demonstrated that you knew the material and could do the job, you'd have to jump through a bunch of hoops if you didn't have the right piece of paper.  Setting a baseline makes it easier for large organizations, particularly when they are spending someone else's money.

Teacher certifications and degree requirements are just supposed to help ensure a base level of competency.  Not sure how that gets turned into a grand conspiracy of the all powerful teachers union (who has managed to see its flock drop to the least paid in the nation). 
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #516 on: March 19, 2018, 08:05:30 am »

What I learned from business classes: "Collect fast and pay slow."




Trump University.
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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I donít share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #517 on: March 19, 2018, 08:08:48 am »

Einstein probably would have been a crappy middle school science teacher.  There is no doubt he had the knowledge, but learning to convey the knowledge that is at grade level in a form that the student are likely to retain is a different animal.  Controlling a herd of children is a different animal.  Solving the mysteries of space-time and the creation of the universe is one thing - keeping the attention of a 10 year old is something else entirely.

That's one of the reasons we started requiring certification of teachers.  There is also the desire to minimize nepotism/cronyism, teaching of bogus material, and the inadvertent hiring of horrible people.  Plus, this is how bureaucracy works.  It isn't necessarily a bad thing.  Try getting a job as a software engineer at Google without a degree, or as a aerospace engineer at Boeing.  Even if you demonstrated that you knew the material and could do the job, you'd have to jump through a bunch of hoops if you didn't have the right piece of paper.  Setting a baseline makes it easier for large organizations, particularly when they are spending someone else's money.

Teacher certifications and degree requirements are just supposed to help ensure a base level of competency.  Not sure how that gets turned into a grand conspiracy of the all powerful teachers union (who has managed to see its flock drop to the least paid in the nation).  



Most of that is a big ole Dino Yasss!   Google was an "ouch" point - they run as high as about 15% non-degreed software engineers on their teams.  College isn't the biggest thing to them.  Doing the job counts much heavier.

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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I donít share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
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« Reply #518 on: April 04, 2018, 11:50:49 pm »


Oklahoma Governor Likens Striking Teachers To A Teen Who ĎWants A Better Carí
Gov. Mary Fallin also claimed that "antifa" had joined the protests at the state Capitol.


https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/oklahoma-governor-teachers-strike-teenage-kid-car_us_5ac51d15e4b0aacd15b7e060
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BKDotCom
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« Reply #519 on: April 05, 2018, 07:30:23 am »

Rep. John Enns Claims Some Protestors Are Paid Actors

http://www.news9.com/story/37882988/rep-john-enns-claims-claims-some-protestors-are-paid-actors
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #520 on: April 05, 2018, 07:57:54 am »



We now know what kind of a dipstick Rep John Enns is....

Just to address directly - if they cannot afford new books for classrooms, how could they afford PAID actors??

So much stupid....
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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I donít share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
Cats Cats Cats
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« Reply #521 on: April 05, 2018, 08:06:09 am »

Unions do hire people to hold those "shame on" signs and sit outside of places.  But not 1250 people Cheesy
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #522 on: April 06, 2018, 08:41:52 am »

The folllowing is from Governor Mary Fallin's Facebook page, posted April 4th, with the comment "Common Education Appropriations 2008-2019." It shows Oklahoma education funding with a spike for 2019.  It also shows how bad things really are - I don't think this was the intent but...



Here is a link to the consumer price index calculator:
https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=2480&year1=200801&year2=201802

If we funded education at the same level as 2008 and adjusted for inflation - it should be $2,925,420,000 in 2018.  Instead it is $2,488,399,829.  ~$500,000,000 short.

With the "historic increase" it will increase next year to $2,912,348,009.  Or ~$63,000,000 less than it was in 2008 (adjusted for inflation, with an guesstimated  ~1.7% inflation added for the additional year).  Almost back to where we were on an overall funding level.

But, enrollment has gone up every year.  There are more than ~50,000 additional students in Oklahoma since 2008 (the year the governor used for her illustration):
http://sde.ok.gov/sde/newsblog/2017-12-13/student-enrollment-oklahoma-public-schools-continues-increase-2017

So in 2008 we spent nearly $5,000 per kid enrolled in public education. After the big increase we will spend ~$4,160 per student.  Adjusted for inflation we would need to spend more than $6,000 per kid just to keep it even (calculator only goes to 2018). If you present it that way, we have about a 25% drop in per pupil funding after the "historic" increase in spending?  Happy to have someone check my math, I'm going fast and rounding.  But I can't find a way to make it something to brag about, unless you ignore a decade worth of inflation and an increase in the student population.
https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=5000&year1=200801&year2=201802

Stupid data.

Thank you, governor, for showing why the teachers continue the strike.
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« Reply #523 on: April 06, 2018, 08:46:47 am »

Unions do hire people to hold those "shame on" signs and sit outside of places.  But not 1250 people Cheesy

They do that because it's cheaper to pay a homeless guy to hold a sign than one of their union members.
It'd be hard to pay someone less than a teacher.
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« Reply #524 on: April 06, 2018, 11:21:12 am »

The folllowing is from Governor Mary Fallin's Facebook page, posted April 4th, with the comment "Common Education Appropriations 2008-2019." It shows Oklahoma education funding with a spike for 2019.  It also shows how bad things really are - I don't think this was the intent but...



Here is a link to the consumer price index calculator:
https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=2480&year1=200801&year2=201802

If we funded education at the same level as 2008 and adjusted for inflation - it should be $2,925,420,000 in 2018.  Instead it is $2,488,399,829.  ~$500,000,000 short.

With the "historic increase" it will increase next year to $2,912,348,009.  Or ~$63,000,000 less than it was in 2008 (adjusted for inflation, with an guesstimated  ~1.7% inflation added for the additional year).  Almost back to where we were on an overall funding level.

But, enrollment has gone up every year.  There are more than ~50,000 additional students in Oklahoma since 2008 (the year the governor used for her illustration):
http://sde.ok.gov/sde/newsblog/2017-12-13/student-enrollment-oklahoma-public-schools-continues-increase-2017

So in 2008 we spent nearly $5,000 per kid enrolled in public education. After the big increase we will spend ~$4,160 per student.  Adjusted for inflation we would need to spend more than $6,000 per kid just to keep it even (calculator only goes to 2018). If you present it that way, we have about a 25% drop in per pupil funding after the "historic" increase in spending?  Happy to have someone check my math, I'm going fast and rounding.  But I can't find a way to make it something to brag about, unless you ignore a decade worth of inflation and an increase in the student population.
https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=5000&year1=200801&year2=201802

Stupid data.

Thank you, governor, for showing why the teachers continue the strike.


Is there a place for comments on the Governor's website FB page for this post?   Can you just cut/paste you comments here against that?   That chart, as presented by the Governor, is a classic example of "Proofiness".  (Great book for those who haven't read it.)   It skews the presentation so as to make the viewer think that something is a fundamental change, when in fact it is not.



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