Bill would let college students bear arms

[bigdtottown]

Thanks CF for clarifying this issue, there were some ridiculous comments being made.

[grahambino]

quote:Originally posted by Sirius

I'm afraid I'm sincere.

Average citizens carrying weapons in certain places may seem unpalatable to you, but to me, the thought of being defenseless in the face of a murderer is unbearable. I don't live in constant fear that there are creeps out to get me. I've just taken what I feel are the most practical, responsible steps possible to improve my chances and those of my family to survive the worst case scenario.

I've also concluded, based on the data we have, that concealed carry works, and concealed carry on college campuses hasn't caused any problems beyond an unfounded discomfort among certain groups.

I'm as new to the idea as anyone else on this forum, and I'm open to having my mind changed. If anyone has any facts(rather than hyperbole and ridicule) to refute my position, I'm more than willing to learn. That's why we're here, right?

concealed weapons permits work in what situations?  when has it 'worked'?  shooting a guy that was tailgating you?   is that a concealed weapon permit working?  how about almost running over a guy in your car, then shooting him when he yells at you?

i can see situations where you might gain some peace of mind from having one, but...
packing at a church? seriously?
that is one of the most ridiculous things i've read on this forum...and that's certainly saying something.

i'd be interested to see if similar legislation has been introduced in Virginia or Illinois.  

[nathanm]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder


A college kid with mental problems should not be able to get a conceal and carry.  

So do you have to take a test to prove you're "sane," or just not be under the care of a mental health professional?

[Conan71]

I don't find this any different than existing conceal-carry laws, other than making it legal to keep a firearm on campus.  

As I remember when I went to OSU, I don't recall there was a ban on firearms on campus.  I can distinctly remember a few dorm mates who kept their unloaded hunting weapons in their rooms.  

Has anyone bothered to check stats to see how many campus shooter nut-jobs have had a conceal-carry?  I doubt many.  

Conceal carry does not necessarily result in more violence.

The problem is not people legally carrying firearms so much as it is those who obtain them illegally and use them for unlawful purposes.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by nathanm


So do you have to take a test to prove you're "sane," or just not be under the care of a mental health professional?

I'm afraid I do not know the details of the current laws in this regard.  But some brief research turned up the pertinent statute and I have put in a request for a copy of the application.

Law:
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?cite=21+O.+S.+1290.12

To get a hand gun you need a federal background check.  To get an Oklahoma conceal and carry you need a background check from the Oklahoma Bureau of Investigation.  It is clearly illegal to lie on both, both question past instances of mental health problems and attempt to verify.

So no, you don't need to prove sanity, just that you have not had treatment.  If you are willing to lie about that and risk getting caught, odds are you could just carry a firearm illegally and risk getting caught.

Will post the app when I receive it.

[grahambino]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71


Conceal carry does not necessarily result in more violence.

does it prevent violence?  no.
these nutjobs have killed themselves after their rampage.  they obviously do not fear death.  I fail to see how a concealed weapon will deter anyone of that mindset.

[grahambino]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by nathanm


So do you have to take a test to prove you're "sane," or just not be under the care of a mental health professional?

I'm afraid I do not know the details of the current laws in this regard.  But some brief research turned up the pertinent statute and I have put in a request for a copy of the application.

Law:
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?cite=21+O.+S.+1290.12

To get a hand gun you need a federal background check.  To get an Oklahoma conceal and carry you need a background check from the Oklahoma Bureau of Investigation.  It is clearly illegal to lie on both, both question past instances of mental health problems and attempt to verify.

So no, you don't need to prove sanity, just that you have not had treatment.  If you are willing to lie about that and risk getting caught, odds are you could just carry a firearm illegally and risk getting caught.

Will post the app when I receive it.

Should taking prozac, wellbutrin, etc. preclude you from gaining a concealed weapon permit?
Should you have to disclose what anit-depressants you've been prescribed?  Should you have to disclose which ones you've stopped taking?

Based on what happened at NIU should the CCW law be amended?  

I guess being involuntarily committed to a mental health institution is the only criteria.  

a. In the course of the Bureau's investigation, it shall present the name of the applicant along with any known aliases, the address of the applicant and the social security number of the applicant to the Department of Mental Health and Substance Abuse Services. The Department of Mental Health and Substance Abuse Services shall respond within ten (10) days of receiving such information to the Bureau as follows:

(1) with a "Yes" answer, if the Department's records indicate that the person was involuntarily committed to a mental institution in Oklahoma, or

(2) with a "No" answer, if there are no records indicating the name of the person as a person involuntarily committed to a mental institution in Oklahoma, or

(3) with an "Inconclusive" answer if the Department's records suggest the applicant may be a formerly committed person. In the case of an inconclusive answer, the Bureau shall ask the applicant whether he or she was involuntarily committed. If the applicant states under penalty of perjury that he or she has not been involuntarily committed, the Bureau shall continue processing the application for a license.

[TeeDub]

quote:Originally posted by grahambino

does it prevent violence?  no.
these nutjobs have killed themselves after their rampage.  they obviously do not fear death.  I fail to see how a concealed weapon will deter anyone of that mindset.

It gives me a chance to shoot them before they shoot me.   I could care less if the crazed gunman lives, the fact remains, I care if _I_ live.

And I, as a responsible adult, who passes all my background checks and can show proficiency with  my weapon, should be able to defend myself.

[cannon_fodder]

grahambino:

That law sets the minimum standards.  I do not know well enough the law to tell you specifically what it is nor what relating laws effect the determination.  I do know that there were some challenges in other state's when they attempted to deny people licenses based on mental health issues (since they are only recorded if you seek help and we want people to seek help).

I will post the application and we'll see if that is more strict.  I also not now know what level of mental health the Fed considers unsafe.  Sorry, not an expert on mental health .

But, if a person has not been involuntarily committed and has no criminal background, it would at least indicate they have been a stable person in the past (insofar as crime is concerned).  If we are worried about people having mental problems that might cause them to commit crimes in the future in spite of no history of such acts, I think we would be asking too much.  Most of the school/campus shootings are by people that were "troubled" but had no real history of mental nor criminal problems that any screen would pick up.

Not very clear in that statement, but I think the intent is discernible.

[Conan71]

Pretty much the same question and answer process as a Class I through III medical exam for pilots, except that the FAA is far more specific as to treatment of any depressive disorder.  In fact, the FAA process is remarkably similar to an application for health or life insurance.

As I remember the question on my Federal background check when I buy firearms, the question asks if I've been "adjudged as mentally defective by a court of law".

You can lie if you like, and possibly no one will know until after you've left a smoking hole in the ground with an aircraft or strafed a classroom with bullets.

Grahmbino- you have a very valid question.  I guess my line of thinking is, if other students had a firearm, the gunman might take out far fewer victims, or he may well wind up being the only victim.

Sometimes the only way to limit the effects of violence is with violence.  That's really going to upset the kumbaya crowd, but it's a cold hard reality of the crazy 21st century we live in.

[nathanm]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71


Grahmbino- you have a very valid question.  I guess my line of thinking is, if other students had a firearm, the gunman might take out far fewer victims, or he may well wind up being the only victim.

Sometimes the only way to limit the effects of violence is with violence.  That's really going to upset the kumbaya crowd, but it's a cold hard reality of the crazy 21st century we live in.

Or the other student might unintentionally shoot someone other than the original shooter. Or the armed student might get shot by police by mistake. Or mistaken by the other students for the gunman. Again, not that I'm against concealed carry in general. CCW holders, thus far, have been the sort who are responsible gun owners. I just want to keep it that way. Kids are often unstable, even if not enough to find themselves committed.

And just FWIW, crime is something like half its peak in the late 80s/early 90s. This sort of thing has nothing to do with the crazy 21st century and everything to do with an agenda by people who think that everyone should be armed. (and again, I don't disagree in most cases)

[Hometown]

The kumbaya crowd finds all the Okie Gun Laws dangerous and crazy.  Our gun laws are one of the big differences between Oklahoma and the United States of America.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by nathanm

quote:Originally posted by Conan71


Grahmbino- you have a very valid question.  I guess my line of thinking is, if other students had a firearm, the gunman might take out far fewer victims, or he may well wind up being the only victim.

Sometimes the only way to limit the effects of violence is with violence.  That's really going to upset the kumbaya crowd, but it's a cold hard reality of the crazy 21st century we live in.

Or the other student might unintentionally shoot someone other than the original shooter. Or the armed student might get shot by police by mistake. Or mistaken by the other students for the gunman. Again, not that I'm against concealed carry in general. CCW holders, thus far, have been the sort who are responsible gun owners. I just want to keep it that way. Kids are often unstable, even if not enough to find themselves committed.

And just FWIW, crime is something like half its peak in the late 80s/early 90s. This sort of thing has nothing to do with the crazy 21st century and everything to do with an agenda by people who think that everyone should be armed. (and again, I don't disagree in most cases)

All big "what if's".  If more than one person has a gun in the room (unless we are talking about a killer's accomplice) chances are, more people will walk out alive than if not.

That's the whole point in registered CCW, not just anyone winds up with a gun permit.  

If you want my honest opinion, impinging First Amendment rights of the press to glorify crazy mass murderers would go much further in curtailing killing sprees.  Take away the attention and you'd have just another suicide.  Call me callous, but that's the truth.  It's all got to do with an anonymous, disaffected individual making the biggest statement possible.  

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

The kumbaya crowd finds all the Okie Gun Laws dangerous and crazy.  Our gun laws are one of the big differences between Oklahoma and the United States of America.

Wrong.  California and NYC's gun laws are the big differences from the rest of the U.S.

Oklahoma's gun laws are more in sync with the rest of the states.

[jne]

A federal background check is NOT required to purchase a handgun (only from a registered dealer) OSBI only checks the in-state record

College is a great time for mental health issues to arise.

Mood disorders, Schizophrenia
20-30 yrs old

Military returning to school on GI bill
can u say PTSD

If I were a professor right now, I would be uneasy to say the least