And what of the Old Ball Park?

[dbacks fan]

quote:Originally posted by AMP

If it turns out like OKC's Fairgrounds, the old ballpark will end up being a parking lot.  

Perhaps Sally Bell or Karen Keith will have a different vision other than another parking lot, regarding phase 5 of the "Master Plan"

I hope that Sally Bell has ideas for more year round usage for the Fair Grounds (and no axes to grind) since the family has had a relation with the fairgrounds for years, and I think Karen Keith has a vested interest in things the way she was in her time in the media. I can't speak for her time in the political arena since I haven't been there for 10 years, but from what I have been reading over the last few months it sounds like there needs to be a lot of changes in the way that things are done.

[cannon_fodder]

AMP, do you really think a race car track has a chance of going in at the fairgrounds?  The noise pollution would effect thousands of homes.  I live over a mile away and would certainly be able to hear it though not at a level to concern me (I can hear the fireworks from Driller's stadium, a stock car race seems a lot louder than a fireworks show).  A good number to a crippling degree (crippling being can't readily watch TV in my own house and/or go outside without hearing protection).  The loss in property value would be astounding.

I'm a casual race fan.  If a new subdivision demands an old track be moved, the hell with them.  But to place a race track, hog lot, or other nuisance in the middle of an existing neighborhood simply won't happen.  As much of an economic engine as it might be, as much as other people might like it, it's just not going to happen.  
- - -

Really, it's hardly worth discussing.  Unless there is an alternative that I don't know about that is not deafeningly loud, it's just not going to happen.

[AMP]

Multi Purpose Event Center

The photos I posted are of Tulsa Speedway at the Tulsa Expo Square Fairgrounds at 21st and Yale area.  If you look close you will notice there are NO HOUSES within miles of the track when it was built.  Again, the Master Plan should of excluded housing around the Fairgrounds, or written a decree that builders/buyers should of accepted the fact they were buying near a Public Event Center Facility that created noise and traffic.  Similar to building/buying near an existing major airport.  Are we going back to the "Chicken and the Egg" question?

Last I checked, the Racetrack at the Fairgrounds is allowed to host up to 8 Races a season.  Plus Sand Drag Races, Motorcycle races, Monster Truck events and or Tractor Pulls during the Fair dates. Motorcyle racing  is held indoors at the Livestock building up to four times a year.  Racing is held indoors at the IPE/Expo/QuikTrip Center building Thanksgiving weekend, and two weekends in Dec and January.  With over 70,000 tickets sold to the Chili Bowl alone and their long list of folks waiting to gain a ticket, one would gather that there are folks that enjoy this form of entertainment. Not sure how many tickets the Eagles will sell in Tulsa at the BOK Arena, but I doubt it will top the Starbird Show or the Chili Bowl numbers, and considering the length of time the motorsports shows run, four to five days, the hotel/motel and restaurant revenue is far greater than for a one night stand.

Add in the 65,000 that attend the Monster Truck Races and Motorcycle Free Style Exhibition at the Starbird Show, the large crowd at the Tulsa Shootout, Tulsa Arenacross, Xtreme World Arenacross.  Add up the total number of tickets sold to those motorsports events and the number is around 150,000 gear heads both, local and from out of state, that enjoy motorsports events held at the Fairgrounds.  

Because the Fairgrounds facilities are now subsidized by Tulsa County/City taxpayers (4-to-fix + Vision 2025), one would believe that is a Multi-Purpose Facility and not just a Horse/Livestock facility.  But who knows?  

Be interesting to know how many of those taxpayers would enjoy having auto racing back at the facility they are helping to pay for every day at the cash register. Based on the numbers of other motorsports events held at the Fairgroudns, one would think there would be far more tickets sold for motorsports productions than the current Horse Races are drawing. Do the Horse Racing folks publish there attendance numbers?

Motorsport Racing has continued at State Fair Speedway in Oklahoma City each and every Friday night for over 50 years.

State Fair Speedway Oklahoma City  

There are no noise regulations in the City of Tulsa from 6am until 10pm.  Most sanctions require a 95db muffler system which has lowered the noise issues.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by AMP

Multi Purpose Event Center

The photos I posted are of Tulsa Speedway at the Tulsa Expo Square Fairgrounds at 21st and Yale area.  If you look close you will notice there are NO HOUSES within miles of the track when it was built.  Again, the Master Plan should of excluded housing around the Fairgrounds, or written a decree that builders/buyers should of accepted the fact they were buying near a Public Event Center Facility that created noise and traffic.  Similar to building/buying near an existing major airport.  Are we going back to the "Chicken and the Egg" question?

Last I checked, the Racetrack at the Fairgrounds is allowed to host up to 8 Races a season.  Plus Sand Drag Races, Motorcycle races, Monster Truck events and or Tractor Pulls during the Fair dates. Motorcyle racing  is held indoors at the Livestock building up to four times a year.  Racing is held indoors at the IPE/Expo/QuikTrip Center building Thanksgiving weekend, and two weekends in Dec and January.  With over 70,000 tickets sold to the Chili Bowl alone and their long list of folks waiting to gain a ticket, one would gather that there are folks that enjoy this form of entertainment. Not sure how many tickets the Eagles will sell in Tulsa at the BOK Arena, but I doubt it will top the Starbird Show or the Chili Bowl numbers, and considering the length of time the motorsports shows run, four to five days, the hotel/motel and restaurant revenue is far greater than for a one night stand.

Add in the 65,000 that attend the Monster Truck Races and Motorcycle Free Style Exhibition at the Starbird Show, the large crowd at the Tulsa Shootout, Tulsa Arenacross, Xtreme World Arenacross.  Add up the total number of tickets sold to those motorsports events and the number is around 150,000 gear heads both, local and from out of state, that enjoy motorsports events held at the Fairgrounds.  

Because the Fairgrounds facilities are now subsidized by Tulsa County/City taxpayers (4-to-fix + Vision 2025), one would believe that is a Multi-Purpose Facility and not just a Horse/Livestock facility.  But who knows?  

Be interesting to know how many of those taxpayers would enjoy having auto racing back at the facility they are helping to pay for every day at the cash register. Based on the numbers of other motorsports events held at the Fairgroudns, one would think there would be far more tickets sold for motorsports productions than the current Horse Races are drawing. Do the Horse Racing folks publish there attendance numbers?

Motorsport Racing has continued at State Fair Speedway in Oklahoma City each and every Friday night for over 50 years.

State Fair Speedway Oklahoma City  

There are no noise regulations in the City of Tulsa from 6am until 10pm.  Most sanctions require a 95db muffler system which has lowered the noise issues.

Is part of the Murphy Carny family's long-range plan, besides running off Bell's Amusement Park, to demolish Driller Stadium, which is right next to their Big Splash Water Park, and build a new Amusement Park on the former Stadium grounds?

Murphy Brother's Amusement and Swim Park?

[cannon_fodder]

Thanks for the reasoned reply AMP.

A handful of races with the 95 db restriction wouldn't bother me a bit.  I think that could get by.  And I do think it would be a financial success.

I was not aware of the 95 db restriction.  While 6-10 cars running at 95 db would be loud, it would not be the deafening roar I remember from stock car races in Iowa.  It should be noted, though, that 95 db is still about the level of a jackhammer or an outboard boat motor.  10 of those would be very loud.  A single item at 95 db is rated by OSHA has causing "Serious Hearing Damage."

THUS, a handful of events would probably be OK.  5 or 10 times a year won't kill anyones property values (but still wouldn't be welcomed).  But at that low utilization rate I doubt the money would be there to build a track.

You know better I, but I still don't think it's in the cards.  Thanks again for clarifying things for me.

[Conan71]

This was tried again in 2003 and 2004 and was a failure.  I wouldn't worry about any more outdoor races at the fairgrounds, Cannon.

Tulsa Speedway attracted an average of 7500 fans a night during the season, about 10,500 during the fair back in the 1970's.  I believe the highest fan count Hugh Finnerty ever had was 12,000 during the fair one year.

After the deaths of Jr. Taft and Gene Daniel in 1981, the move to the 3/8" mile track which was further away from the fans, and the oil bust, Tulsa Speedway could call a crowd of 5000 outstanding.

I don't believe the facility at 66th St. N. ever had a crowd larger than 4000 for it's weekly sprint car show.  Average was more like 3000 to 3500.  I don't think Creek County gets much more than 1500 fans per night.

Tulsa Speedway closed without so much as a whimper.

The demand for local auto racing isn't as strong as it used to be.  The 65,000 people you cite as attending the monster truck races and freestyle MC exhibition is inaccurate.  Most people are there to look at the cars, not watch the races.  

I used to race my mini sprint in the Starbird winter series.  The biggest crowd I ever raced in front of was "maybe" 8000 at the Myriad in OKC or the Colisseum in Wichita.  Darryl never had seats for more than about 4000 to 5000 set up in the Expo building in Tulsa.

The 70,000 Chili Bowl tickets you cite are mostly the same people going to all five nights.  I don't remember the exact figure Emmett had told me last time I asked, but I believe about 70% of Chili Bowl attendees come from out of town.

I'm nostalgic about races at the fairgrounds.  I used to go back during the heyday when the lastest incarnation of the speedway on the fairgrounds was only a year old and they had fields of 40 modifieds and 40 supers every week along with 100 street stocks.  Great times, but that's been 33 years ago.  One of my favorite childhood summertime sounds aside from locusts, was the sound of the cars at the speedway on Saturday nights when I wasn't at the races.

Times change, interests change.  There's nowhere near enough support for an outdoor track at the fairgrounds, and why start up a major **** storm with the neighbors?

[Double A]

If we are gonna do racetracks, let's do something new, unique, and completely different that will really put us on the map. The infernal combustion engine is so passe. I've said it before, but it bears repeating.

quote:Originally posted by Double A


I'd like to see Tulsa open a track for electric vehicles only. I'd pay to watch these bad boys fly around the track with zero emissions and almost no noise. I think this would really put Tulsa on the map in a progressive, pioneering, way. For once, we'd be leading the way instead of following everyone else.



There might be some fast electric motorcycles on the horizon. Tulsans love motorcycles, too.

[AMP]

Chili Bowl sells 70,000 tickets sold over 5 days and 85% are from out of town, which is what most attractions are looking for to boost the economy.  A concert featuring an out of state artist typically extracts money out of the local economy rather than adding money to the local economy as many motorsports programs allow.  

"It is expected the fifth night will quickly sell out, pushing the five-day total of expected fans to about 75,000."


http://www.tulsaworld.com/sports/article.aspx?subjectID=203&articleID=20080718_203_B1_pncase724513

That does not account for the Pit Passes which are in addition to the 70,000 reserved seating tickets. Based on the five day tickets versus the single day tickets one could determine the repeat ticket holders, but the count of repeat versus separate folks with other single tickets may vary.  

The 65,000 that walk the Starbird show, most take a seat for one of if not all of the four shows produced at the Budweiser Action Arena in the lower level.  They can also view from atop along the railing and do not have to watch the entire program as they make laps looking at the cars, watching the bands and attending the Bikini Show.   It seats around 8,500-10,000 depending how it is configured for the Starbird show.  There are typically four performances, Friday night, Saturday Matinee, Saturday night and Sunday Matinee.  We have had it packed with people, security had to stop people from coming down the ramp and there was a larg crowd standing on the upper level looking over the railing for the two AMA Arenacross events I produced there.  We switched to the Free Style program as it is much eaiser to produce, which continues to date.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by AMP

Chili Bowl sells 70,000 tickets sold over 5 days and 85% are from out of town, which is what most attractions are looking for to boost the economy.  A concert featuring an out of state artist typically extracts money out of the local economy rather than adding money to the local economy as many motorsports programs allow.  

"It is expected the fifth night will quickly sell out, pushing the five-day total of expected fans to about 75,000."


http://www.tulsaworld.com/sports/article.aspx?subjectID=203&articleID=20080718_203_B1_pncase724513

That does not account for the Pit Passes which are in addition to the 70,000 reserved seating tickets. Based on the five day tickets versus the single day tickets one could determine the repeat ticket holders, but the count of repeat versus separate folks with other single tickets may vary.  

The 65,000 that walk the Starbird show, most take a seat for one of if not all of the four shows produced at the Budweiser Action Arena in the lower level.  They can also view from atop along the railing and do not have to watch the entire program as they make laps looking at the cars, watching the bands and attending the Bikini Show.   It seats around 8,500-10,000 depending how it is configured for the Starbird show.  There are typically four performances, Friday night, Saturday Matinee, Saturday night and Sunday Matinee.  We have had it packed with people, security had to stop people from coming down the ramp and there was a larg crowd standing on the upper level looking over the railing for the two AMA Arenacross events I produced there.  We switched to the Free Style program as it is much eaiser to produce, which continues to date.

And your numbers still prove nothing scientific about having regular races at the fairgrounds.  Tulsa's hardcore circle track auto racing fans (no offense, but watching NAPCAR every Sunday doesn't count) numbers about 3000 to 3500 these days and has for the last 25+ years.

If there was a demand for outdoor racing at the fairgrounds, Emmett Hahn would still be promoting it.  He learned his lesson with the USAC shows he promoted.  Granted some of that was a poor track surface and poor officiating on USAC's part.  Bottom line is, it was not a sucessful venture.

Your own numbers on the Chili Bowl shows about 2100 locals buying tickets per night.  Last thing we need is a tax-payer subsidized racing program at the fairgrounds.  No one tracks the pit pass purchases, nor where those people live.

Point is, Tulsans will come out for special shows, but they just don't support weekly racing like they used to.

You asked about Fair Meadows: according to a story in the World last week, Ron Shotts said average daily attendence during the last meet was 900 with a handle of $60,000.  Pretty pathetic.  They said casinos have produced a steady downward slide the last five years.  At it's peak, the handle was $600,000 per day.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

If we are gonna do racetracks, let's do something new, unique, and completely different that will really put us on the map. The infernal combustion engine is so passe. I've said it before, but it bears repeating.

quote:Originally posted by Double A


I'd like to see Tulsa open a track for electric vehicles only. I'd pay to watch these bad boys fly around the track with zero emissions and almost no noise. I think this would really put Tulsa on the map in a progressive, pioneering, way. For once, we'd be leading the way instead of following everyone else.



There might be some fast electric motorcycles on the horizon. Tulsans love motorcycles, too.

I dunno, just wouldn't seem like racing witout the roar and vibration to me.

[mrB]

And what of the Old Ball Park? is the main topic here.

Keep the ball park. Use it "to attract College World Series regional, Softball World series regional, high school state championships, and MLS Soccer. It's a great facility and it would be a loss to Tulsa if it just sat dormant," It would be stupid to tear it down! It can be used.

The other points made about motorized racing:
..., Tulsans will come out for special shows, but they just don't support weekly racing like they used to. is accurate. Nobody will allow weekly motor noise to emanate from the fairgrounds.

I can wax nostalgic with you AMP! I went to many a stockcar race with my older brother when I was a kid and loved it! My family grew up around 36th & Harvard and I can remember the 'sounds' of the races on a hot summer night! I could also find a discarded pop bottle and return it at Git'n'Go for 5 pcs. of SuperBubble.

All the Tulsa racing venues you mentioned either existed or moved from the middle of town.
Yes, the race track existed at the fairgrounds before houses were built, but so did my elementary school, Eisenhower, at 27th & New Haven. You know Tulsa's growth history. Your dad's own store sat across the street from a farm for most of its existence.

Let's not try to rebuild Old Driller Ballpark, but use it in it's current form. Same with the horse track. Add Trotter horse/harness racing. You want motorized activity, have some tractor pulls. Even draft horse pulls like the fair would be fun! BMX bicycle race track on the infield!

I think Octoberfest could even be moved to the infield at the fairgrounds track [new thread?]! Most people park there anyway. Cut down on fuel for shuttle buses. Octoberfest lost several picnic tables in last year's storm and had to struggle to get enough for this year even though they use some on trade with the fairgrounds. [once again, maybe a new thread]

But let's drop the AMP'd hope of the return of weekly stock car racing at the faigrounds.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

Oh, and I also know of a league that would LOVE to have a team in Tulsa.... USL1 seems to be using the Huey Lewis & the News guide to expansion.... "Tulsa... Austin... Oklahoma City....."  []

http://theoffsiderules.blogspot.com/2008/05/usl-open-to-resusitating-tulsa-nasl.html


...you'd think the guy would at least have the decency to contact me.... go figure...

Regardless, USL1 wants to be in Tulsa, would like to make an announcement in the next month (I'm betting on OKC/Edmond playing at Wantland)... and would prefer to use the Roughnecks' name for a Tulsa team to go with the Tampa Bay Rowdies.... they're open to suggestions.... so somebody (anybody) important with lotsa money please contact them so I can finally get taken off their email list.... []

quote:Dear USL Franchise Prospect,

USL has been having a tremendous 2008 season!  So far 987 games have been played, 3,075 goals scored, and nearly 950,000 fans watching.  121 games to go until we begin preperations for the 2009 season.  

We hope to bring the USL excitement to your city or town in 2009 or 2010. If you are interested in applying for a USL expansion franchise with the USL First Division, USL Second Division, USL Premier Development League, or USL W-League, please visit:

http://www.uslfranchising.com  
username: umbro
password:  1924

I'm sure I'm breaking rules by giving the readers of TulsaNow forum the username and pw, but hey, what are they gonna do?  Sue me?!?

Login, look at the International Partnerships Presentation You'll see the basic sales pitch first, scroll to page 57 for operating expenses, then page 58 for Austin's new team--- then scroll to page 64, then to page 65 (Omaha) and then page 66 (Okla. City)...

It'd be nice if Tulsa at least had its own page-- hint, hint....

BTW, TU hasn't had a baseball team since old Oiler Park collapsed-- when I was a kid, I remember going to old Oiler Park to see TU versus OU... they added men's soccer in 1980? or 1981?..... another bit of Bob-Costas-esque trivia rattling around in my brain... the 1985 Tulsa Roughnecks played a short season even after the league they played in collapsed and cancelled their season..... they played an exhibition schedule of 7-games..... at Driller Park...

god I'm old.... but then again, so's Beth Rengal, Chris Lincoln, and Linda Soundtrak.... [:I]

Ok, I looked at your link.  I noticed Tulsa was listed on page 64-- "Prime Market Samples."  Drillers Stadium seems favorable for a USL-1 team, given that the seating capacity is around 10,000.  On another note, where does TU play soccer?  I'm assuming it's a small stadium on campus.  Any chance of possible upgrade?  Could some of the Drillers Stadium grandstands be installed at TU?  To me, TU's location in the city is more conducive to an overall positive fan experience than the fairgrounds.

If a soccer team did locate at the old(present) Drillers Stadium, I would think some of the area fronting 15th St. could be used for retail, restaurant, or hotel space, etc.  Surely it could only help the State Fair for some existing infrastructure to be in place on the fairgrounds, other than the nearby big-box stores.

Just my two cents...

TU plays at the Hurricane Soccer/Track&Field Stadium, it holds around 2,000?... didn't seem like it could hold that many when I went there, but TU soccer doesn't get alot of publicity in the paper or on tv, so here's the info... http://tulsahurricane.cstv.com/facilities/tuls-soccer-field.html

Here's Creighton's Morrison Stadium in Omaha, NE...





Take the signs off the outfield at Driller Park and extending the grass berm could be simple enough... doesn't have to be like the pic below, but you get the idea....



Since we seem to be going down memory lane on this thread, here's soccer attendance from kenn.com-- look at Tulsa from 1978-84...

http://kenn.com/blog/?page_id=504

The guy who runs the blog is from Tampa, but also worked for a USL team in Indy and did some broadcast work for the Chicago Fire.... here's his take on Tulsa's NASL years...

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=15283300&postcount=24

Yeah, I thought Tulsa was a good market in the "oh, yeah, I forgot about Tulsa" size markets. Might be a decent market again, someday.

I hadn't thought of it in terms of "markets" before, though. Interestingly enough, if you combine all the teams in the various markets in which the NASL had teams over the years, you get these standings in average attendance (only one metric by which you might try to determine the "best markets"):


Market...................Avg.
Minneapolis.............22,872
New York/New Jersey.....22,148
Tampa Bay...............19,062
Seattle.................18,322
Vancouver...............16,633
Tulsa...................14,471
San Francisco Bay Area..12,304
Portland................12,194
Montreal................11,902
Calgary.................10,501

***I don't think people realize that TU and ORU are the only NCAA D-1 men's soccer teams in the state... TU is Top 25 material again this year... rivals are SMU, Creighton... last year's TU goalkeeper Dominic Cervi is an alternate and is with the Olympic team in Beijing...

[AMP]

This is one format of racing I would like to see at a decent outdoor statium here. Not like Auto Racing, this precision with less noise.  Albeit they do burn Nitro Methane fuel!

[Conan71]

AMP, you forgot, no brakes either.

I always wanted to go to Ascot Park just once before they closed to see a speedway bike race on the speedway track and a CRA sprint car race on the 1/2 mile.

Sadly, that's where our friend Ted Boody met his end.

[AMP]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Sadly, that's where our friend Ted Boody met his end.

http://www.tedboody.com

RIP Ted