Bill would let college students bear arms

[Hawkins]

I'm for the bill.

They're already doing this in Utah, and its been no big deal.

On campus will be just like out in the rest of Oklahoma, there will be a few students who care about defending themselves and have the carry license, just like a small percentage of our state population already has CC permits. The rest will just go about their business and no one will even notice the change.

Schools have become the favorite target of the suicidal gunman because they know its the one place they can go and pretty much shoot fish in a barrel, because they are gun free zones.

As this trend continues, I think we need to take steps like this.

[nathanm]

quote:Originally posted by Hawkins


Schools have become the favorite target of the suicidal gunman because they know its the one place they can go and pretty much shoot fish in a barrel, because they are gun free zones.

As this trend continues, I think we need to take steps like this.

There is no trend. Your "village" that you receive news about has just expanded. There were school shootings back in 1927, but not many heard about them then. Now, with the power of the Internet we hear about them no matter where they happen.

Besides, there are plenty of other places where people can't be armed. Establishments serving liquor leap to mind, what with all the recent nightclub shootings. Wasn't it just last month that someone shot a bunch of people in a mall in Minnesota? The first mass shootings to get big news play in my lifetime were in post offices and the famous Luby's. Yeah, the Luby's that got everybody thinking about concealed carry in the first place, IIRC.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by nathanm

quote:Originally posted by Hawkins


Schools have become the favorite target of the suicidal gunman because they know its the one place they can go and pretty much shoot fish in a barrel, because they are gun free zones.

As this trend continues, I think we need to take steps like this.

There is no trend. Your "village" that you receive news about has just expanded. There were school shootings back in 1927, but not many heard about them then. Now, with the power of the Internet we hear about them no matter where they happen.

Besides, there are plenty of other places where people can't be armed. Establishments serving liquor leap to mind, what with all the recent nightclub shootings. Wasn't it just last month that someone shot a bunch of people in a mall in Minnesota? The first mass shootings to get big news play in my lifetime were in post offices and the famous Luby's. Yeah, the Luby's that got everybody thinking about concealed carry in the first place, IIRC.

That's the flip side of what won't carry national news.  How many mass murderers have we heard of being killed by someone with a CCW permit?

Not many.  The death of one person isn't near as sexy to the media as a mass killing spree.  Probably no way to really track how many self-defense shootings have actually thwarted a much larger killing spree.  No one knows because the killer was stopped before it hit a sensational enough number to attract a national media circus.

[nathanm]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71


That's the flip side of what won't carry national news. How many mass murderers have we heard of being killed by someone with a CCW permit?

Not many.  The death of one person isn't near as sexy to the media as a mass killing spree.  Probably no way to really track how many self-defense shootings have actually thwarted a much larger killing spree.  No one knows because the killer was stopped before it hit a sensational enough number to attract a national media circus.

The FBI knows. Things happen that don't make it into the newspapers, yet manage to make it into crime statistics, you know.

[Hawkins]

quote:Originally posted by nathanm

quote:Originally posted by Hawkins


Schools have become the favorite target of the suicidal gunman because they know its the one place they can go and pretty much shoot fish in a barrel, because they are gun free zones.

As this trend continues, I think we need to take steps like this.

There is no trend. Your "village" that you receive news about has just expanded. There were school shootings back in 1927, but not many heard about them then. Now, with the power of the Internet we hear about them no matter where they happen.

Besides, there are plenty of other places where people can't be armed. Establishments serving liquor leap to mind, what with all the recent nightclub shootings. Wasn't it just last month that someone shot a bunch of people in a mall in Minnesota? The first mass shootings to get big news play in my lifetime were in post offices and the famous Luby's. Yeah, the Luby's that got everybody thinking about concealed carry in the first place, IIRC.

Oh please, don't address me like I'm so sort of sheeple.

I went to school in the 80's. You could wear a black trenchcoat back then, and talk about setting a bomb in the boiler room (Heathers was a popular cult flick of that time) without getting suspended.

There may have been a school shooting in 1927, but I'd wager there have been MORE in a shorter space of time since Columbine.

The Mall shooting was in Nebraska, which a state that doesn't issue CC permits. Just another dumb kid, but kids these days have less respect for life than the kids from the prior generation.

Best to let those who care about the issue train for and receive a CC permit for their campus.

I'm all for it.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by nathanm

quote:Originally posted by Conan71


That's the flip side of what won't carry national news. How many mass murderers have we heard of being killed by someone with a CCW permit?

Not many.  The death of one person isn't near as sexy to the media as a mass killing spree.  Probably no way to really track how many self-defense shootings have actually thwarted a much larger killing spree.  No one knows because the killer was stopped before it hit a sensational enough number to attract a national media circus.

The FBI knows. Things happen that don't make it into the newspapers, yet manage to make it into crime statistics, you know.

The all-knowing FBI isn't why honest, sane citizens own firearms and get CC permits.  It's the all-glorifying media which is the reason.

It's more difficult to place numbers on lives saved vs. lives lost as federal and state agencies generally only compile hard statistics in the way of a body count.  No one can say for certain when a deranged killer has been shot how many people he would have killed if he had not been stopped.

Same as drunk driving intervention, no one knows how many lives are saved by that.  All we know for certain is how many die as a result.

[cannon_fodder]

Again, I have some trepidation about this bill because I don't want firearms accessible to people who are drinking and prone to drama.  Commuter students over the age of 21 with a clean background and training would probably be OK with me.  But the law needs to be more specific (I think, have not read the fine print).

Anyway, Nathan per C&C being more dangerous, here is a very well researched and cited article on the matter.   There are well researched statistics on the issue and they have the opposite finding than you would desire (including research done under Clinton for the Brady Bill supporting COnans contention):

- Firearms are used more than 6,000 times daily in legal self defense in the US.  

- Including more than 500 times a day for women to fend off sexual assaults.  

- Passing C&C laws reduces crime in those states by an average of 8.5% for murder, 5% FOR RAPE, 7% for aggravated assault, and 3% for robbery.

- Vermont is one of the safest states in the nation, and the ability to carry a firearm is a right (no application needed).  

- Only 2% of citizen shootings are cases of mistaken identity - where cops shoot someone they should not have 11% of the time.

- A majority of convicted felons say a fear of firearms is a primary reason they do not do home invasions, they will not mess with a citizen they know to be armed, and that they fear an armed citizen more than the police.

Pretty strong evidence that legally armed citizens do more good than harm.

- - -
The source is clearly partisan, but his citations are indisputable.  Open copyright as long as credit is given and non-commercial:
http://www.gunowners.org/sk0802.htm

quote:A. Guns save more lives than they take; prevent more injuries than they inflict

   * Guns used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year -- or about 6,850 times a day.1 This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.2

   * Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.3

   * As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.4

   * Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America" -- a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.5

   * Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606).6 And readers of Newsweek learned that "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The 'error rate' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."7

   * Handguns are the weapon of choice for self-defense. Citizens use handguns to protect themselves over 1.9 million times a year.8 Many of these self-defense handguns could be labeled as "Saturday Night Specials."

B. Concealed carry laws help reduce crime

   * Nationwide: one-half million self-defense uses. Every year, as many as one-half million citizens defend themselves with a firearm away from home.9

   * Concealed carry laws are dropping crime rates across the country. A comprehensive national study determined in 1996 that violent crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms. The results of the study showed:

       * States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%;10 and

       * If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly.11

   * Vermont: one of the safest five states in the country. In Vermont, citizens can carry a firearm without getting permission... without paying a fee... or without going through any kind of government-imposed waiting period. And yet for ten years in a row, Vermont has remained one of the top-five, safest states in the union -- having three times received the "Safest State Award."12

   * Florida: concealed carry helps slash the murder rates in the state. In the fifteen years following the passage of Florida's concealed carry law in 1987, over 800,000 permits to carry firearms were issued to people in the state.13 FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 52% during that 15-year period -- thus putting the Florida rate below the national average. 14

   * Do firearms carry laws result in chaos? No. Consider the case of Florida. A citizen in the Sunshine State is far more likely to be attacked by an alligator than to be assaulted by a concealed carry holder.

       1. During the first fifteen years that the Florida law was in effect, alligator attacks outpaced the number of crimes committed by carry holders by a 229 to 155 margin.

       2. And even the 155 "crimes" committed by concealed carry permit holders are somewhat misleading as most of these infractions resulted from Floridians who accidentally carried their firearms into restricted areas, such as an airport.15

C. Criminals avoid armed citizens

   * Kennesaw, GA. In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole.16

   * Ten years later (1991), the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was still 72% lower than it had been in 1981, before the law was passed.17

   * Nationwide. Statistical comparisons with other countries show that burglars in the United States are far less apt to enter an occupied home than their foreign counterparts who live in countries where fewer civilians own firearms. Consider the following rates showing how often a homeowner is present when a burglar strikes:

   * Homeowner occupancy rate in the gun control countries of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands: 45% (average of the three countries); and,

   * Homeowner occupancy rate in the United States: 12.7%.18

   Rapes averted when women carry or use firearms for protection

       * Orlando, FL. In 1966-67, the media highly publicized a safety course which taught Orlando women how to use guns. The result: Orlando's rape rate dropped 88% in 1967, whereas the rape rate remained constant in the rest of Florida and the nation.19

       * Nationwide. In 1979, the Carter Justice Department found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. But when a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes were actually successful.20

       Justice Department study:

           * 3/5 of felons polled agreed that "a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun."21

           * 74% of felons polled agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."22

           * 57% of felons polled agreed that "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."23

Sources:


1) Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense With a Gun," 86 The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, 1 (Fall 1995):164.
Dr. Kleck is a professor in the school of criminology and criminal justice at Florida State University in Tallahassee. He has researched extensively and published several essays on the gun control issue. His book, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, has become a widely cited source in the gun control debate. In fact, this book earned Dr. Kleck the prestigious American Society of Criminology Michael J. Hindelang award for 1993. This award is given for the book published in the past two to three years that makes the most outstanding contribution to criminology.
Even those who don't like the conclusions Dr. Kleck reaches, cannot argue with his impeccable research and methodology. In "A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed," Marvin E. Wolfgang writes that, "What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator.... I have to admit my admiration for the care and caution expressed in this article and this research. Can it be true that about two million instances occur each year in which a gun was used as a defensive measure against crime? It is hard to believe. Yet, it is hard to challenge the data collected. We do not have contrary evidence." Wolfgang, "A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed," The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, at 188.
Wolfgang says there is no "contrary evidence." Indeed, there are more than a dozen national polls -- one of which was conducted by The Los Angeles Times -- that have found figures comparable to the Kleck-Gertz study. Even the Clinton Justice Department (through the National Institute of Justice) found there were as many as 1.5 million defensive users of firearms every year. See National Institute of Justice, "Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms," Research in Brief (May 1997).
As for Dr. Kleck, readers of his materials may be interested to know that he is a member of the ACLU, Amnesty International USA, and Common Cause. He is not and has never been a member of or contributor to any advocacy group on either side of the gun control debate.
2) According to the National Safety Council, the total number of gun deaths (by accidents, suicides and homicides) account for less than 30,000 deaths per year. See Injury Facts, published yearly by the National Safety Council, Itasca, Illinois.
3) Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime," at 173, 185.
4) Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime," at 185.
5)  Philip J. Cook and Jens Ludwig, "Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms," NIJ Research in Brief (May 1997); available at http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/165476.txt on the internet. The finding of 1.5 million yearly self-defense cases did not sit well with the anti-gun bias of the study's authors, who attempted to explain why there could not possibly be one and a half million cases of self-defense every year. Nevertheless, the 1.5 million figure is consistent with a mountain of independent surveys showing similar figures. The sponsors of these studies -- nearly a dozen -- are quite varied, and include anti-gun organizations, news media organizations, governments and commercial polling firms. See also Kleck and Gertz, supra note 1, pp. 182-183.
6) Kleck, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, (1991):111-116, 148.
7) George F. Will, "Are We 'a Nation of Cowards'?," Newsweek (15 November 1993):93.
Id. at 164, 185.
9) Dr. Gary Kleck, interview with J. Neil Schulman, "Q and A: Guns, crime and self-defense," The Orange County Register (19 September 1993). In the interview with Schulman, Dr. Kleck reports on findings from a national survey which he and Dr. Marc Gertz conducted in Spring, 1993 -- a survey which findings were reported in Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime." br>10 One of the authors of the University of Chicago study reported on the study's findings in John R. Lott, Jr., "More Guns, Less Violent Crime," The Wall Street Journal (28 August 1996). See also John R. Lott, Jr. and David B. Mustard, "Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns," University of Chicago (15 August 1996); and Lott, More Guns, Less Crime (1998, 2000).
11) Lott and Mustard, "Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns."
12) Kathleen O'Leary Morgan, Scott Morgan and Neal Quitno, "Rankings of States in Most Dangerous/Safest State Awards 1994 to 2003," Morgan Quitno Press (2004) at http://www.statestats.com/dang9403.htm. Morgan Quitno Press is an independent private research and publishing company which was founded in 1989. The company specializes in reference books and monthly reports that compare states and cities in several different subject areas. In the first 10 years in which they published their Safest State Award, Vermont has consistently remained one of the top five safest states.
13) Memo by Jim Smith, Secretary of State, Florida Department of State, Division of Licensing, Concealed Weapons/Firearms License Statistical Report (October 1, 2002).
14) Florida's murder rate was 11.4 per 100,000 in 1987, but only 5.5 in 2002. Compare Federal Bureau of Investigation, "Crime in the United States," Uniform Crime Reports, (1988): 7, 53; and FBI, (2003):19, 79.
15) John R. Lott, Jr., "Right to carry would disprove horror stories," Kansas City Star, (July 12, 2003).
16) Gary Kleck, "Crime Control Through the Private Use of Armed Force," Social Problems 35 (February 1988):15.
17) Compare Kleck, "Crime Control," at 15, and Chief Dwaine L. Wilson, City of Kennesaw Police Department, "Month to Month Statistics: 1991." (Residential burglary rates from 1981-1991 are based on statistics for the months of March - October.)
18) Kleck, Point Blank, at 140.
19) Kleck, "Crime Control," at 13.
20) U.S. Department of Justice, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Rape Victimization in 26) American Cities (1979), p. 31.
21) U.S., Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice, "The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons," Research Report (July 1985): 27.
22) Id.
23) Id.

[nathanm]

quote:Originally posted by Hawkins

I went to school in the 80's. You could wear a black trenchcoat back then, and talk about setting a bomb in the boiler room (Heathers was a popular cult flick of that time) without getting suspended.

...

The Mall shooting was in Nebraska, which a state that doesn't issue CC permits. Just another dumb kid, but kids these days have less respect for life than the kids from the prior generation.

Enough people back in the 80s still realized that crap happening is just a part of life that they didn't take every joking mention of a bomb or a gun so seriously as they do today. I really don't know what's gotten into folks. The only explanation I can come up with is the constant fear being peddled in the media.

Every generation has said what you said about kids these days. It wasn't true then, and it's not true now.

P.S. I saw Heathers when it first came on HBO and loved it.


P.P.S. cannon_fodder: while I was once a member of GOA, their "statistics" aren't as reliable as they would like you to believe, given that they fail to account for the overall downward trend in violent crime that had already begun before the mass adoption of CCW laws in many states. It also tries to say that guns are the reason some places are safe, when really the correlation is not with gun ownership, but with population density.

Again, I'm all for CCW permits for stable adults. College kids, not so much. That doesn't mean I fall prey to the poor statistics that GOA likes to cite. I do like how you decided that I "desire" facts that point to guns being dangerous, when, in fact, I wish exactly the opposite. Having known too many unstable college kids, I'm not interested in arming them, however.

[cannon_fodder]

nathan,

Those are not their statistics.  Please look at their references before belittling the information.  Several books, national surveys, published studies, respected organizations, police departments, universities and state agencies.  I don't see where they cited their own statistics or studies.

I agree that they probably grabbed the most favorable statistics they could find, but they still appear sound.

[Sirius]

quote:Originally posted by grahambino

concealed weapons permits work in what situations?  when has it 'worked'?  shooting a guy that was tailgating you?   is that a concealed weapon permit working?  how about almost running over a guy in your car, then shooting him when he yells at you?

It seems to have worked in the situations listed here.

Here you'll find links to several studies on the subject.

quote:
i can see situations where you might gain some peace of mind from having one, but...
packing at a church? seriously?
that is one of the most ridiculous things i've read on this forum...and that's certainly saying something.

Some of you nice folks may remember the recent story of the church shooting that took place in Colorado. It's included in the first link above, but here's a more thorough account. Like I said before, I don't live in fear of an astronomically unlikely attack. I just believe in taking basic steps to help protect myself and my loved ones.

[jamesrage]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080227_1_A9_spanc67651

This would certainly add a whole new element to the bedlam rivalry- Pistol Pete could have a real six shooter! Watch out OU fans!

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.  Let's give all the state's college kids concealed weapons! I can see it now..."Dude, did you hear what that drunkass Alpha Beta did to the Omega Pi house?"
"No, what happened?"  
"Awww braaaoo, you should have been there, he pulled out this sick glock and shot up their whole house man!" "It was nuts!"

I can see why marijuana is Oklahoma's #1 cash crop- obviously the state legislature is smokin' lots of it!

This should discourage any pathetic looser who wants to off himself from shooting up the whole school.Unfortunately the media doesn't like to air stories of guns being used to save live lives and stopping potential mass murderers so any good this law will do will not be known.

[grahambino]

quote:Originally posted by jamesrage

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080227_1_A9_spanc67651

This would certainly add a whole new element to the bedlam rivalry- Pistol Pete could have a real six shooter! Watch out OU fans!

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.  Let's give all the state's college kids concealed weapons! I can see it now..."Dude, did you hear what that drunkass Alpha Beta did to the Omega Pi house?"
"No, what happened?"  
"Awww braaaoo, you should have been there, he pulled out this sick glock and shot up their whole house man!" "It was nuts!"

I can see why marijuana is Oklahoma's #1 cash crop- obviously the state legislature is smokin' lots of it!

This should discourage any pathetic looser who wants to off himself from shooting up the whole school.Unfortunately the media doesn't like to air stories of guns being used to save live lives and stopping potential mass murderers so any good this law will do will not be known.

youre applying the thoughts of a rational person to someone who is not if they are planning such an attack.

as i mentioned before, most of them have committed suicide afterwards, i fail to see how death is a deterrent.

[cannon_fodder]

IN that case Grahambino... laws about carrying a gun on campus are not relevant either.

So having established that those who are more likely to commit atrocities don't care what the law is, the logical conclusion would be it would have no effect on them.  So banning guns from campus really only effects people who are not going to go on a shooting rampage - as those who will ignore said laws anyway.  Thus, the very people who would potentially be able to cut short a rampage by an undeterred shooter.

By that logic the outcome of forbidding guns on campus has no effect on the shooters but deprives potential victims of self defense.  I think you should change up your argument if you're trying to convince me.

[grahambino]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

IN that case Grahambino... laws about carrying a gun on campus are not relevant either.

So having established that those who are more likely to commit atrocities don't care what the law is, the logical conclusion would be it would have no effect on them.  So banning guns from campus really only effects people who are not going to go on a shooting rampage - as those who will ignore said laws anyway.  Thus, the very people who would potentially be able to cut short a rampage by an undeterred shooter.

By that logic the outcome of forbidding guns on campus has no effect on the shooters but deprives potential victims of self defense.  I think you should change up your argument if you're trying to convince me.

Pro-gun folks use my argument all the time, C_F.   Criminals will find guns and get them regardless of a automatic, semi-automatic weapon ban.  The ban or law will not deter them from getting & using one.  I don't see how this or any law will act as a 'deterrent' to a school shooter.

As for self-defense?  What if he's a better shot than you?  What if you kill a person when trying to kill him?  are they collateral damage at that point?

The whole idea of carrying a concealed weapon is 'what-if', so, i'm going to make some too.

Essentially I have issue with apparently how easy it is to purchase a gun and get a concealed weapon permit.  It is my understanding that guy @ NIU could be a legal concealed weapon carrier in Oklahoma.  That is what is frightening to me.
Having creeps that pose for pictures of themselves with their guns concealing weapons in public, does not fill me ease, or give me any notion of perceived safety.
that's all i'm saying in this thread.  i'm done.

[cannon_fodder]

I understand your perspective and agree with your concerns.  Just seems that the logic neglected the fact that the people you are concerned with will be armed anyway, and those you should trust will not be (and the incidents of collateral damage from CC holders is 2%, less than for police).  That is a point of order that concerns me.

But thanks for clarifying your point.

quote:Having creeps that pose for pictures of themselves with their guns

This is where everyone tells me how cute my boy is. []   Not really posing with a gun, I was teaching him firearm safety as I have weapons in my home and he needs to understand them (lest he "play" with them when he is older and left alone).