city limits and Tulsa Gov't vehicles

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

Friendlybear, The Department of Homeland security suggests that police department DO NOT park large numbers of police vehicles in areas.  They suggest take-home cars are one of the safest ways to insure that in an emergency (terrorist attack, natural disaster ect) officers will be able to effectively get to and operate their vehicles.

Youngtulsan has a great point.  Officers have been for that for years but the city won't do anything about it.

Recyclemichael, we've talked about this at length in previous threads.  Officers would love to support Tulsa but officers want to support their families more.  Officers can get more house for less money in the surrounding areas.  Also officers feel like they are less likely to run into someone they arrested when they are with their family when they are outside the city. If the city were to reward officers for living in the city then I'm sure more would move back in.  

The Heimat Sicherheitdienst (Homeland Security Department) may or may not have given that advice.  

The REAL answer is:  IT DEPENDS.

If the cars are concentrated in one location, then they can be guarded.  Cars scattered all over Tulsa are subject to vandalism or theft.

Tulsa is unlikely to suffer a Pearl Harbor type attack.  

The Police Car Take-Home Policy has been justified by a ever changing pretext:

It's about Public Safety within the city limits of Tulsa.

Then, moving the boundary 25 miles from 41st and Yale:  

It's now about TERRORISM.

True Answer:  It's about FREE-LOADERS.

Tulsa should have no more than about 200 police cars.  That would save 4-fold our Capital Expenditures for new police cars, and reduce significantly our fuel expenditures incurred by the City operating budget by eliminating commuting expense.

[}:)]

Thank you for showing that you are completely uninformed. []

My repeated questions has not been answered concerning which other major cities have a similar liberal police car take-home policy?

Of the 100 largest cities in the U.S., besides Tulsa, which ones allow ALL city police to take home their assigned police cars?

Next, which ones allow ALL city police to take home their assigned cars within a 25 mile radius of their employment city?

Answer:  None.

Why:  It's the TULSA PREMIUM!

[RecycleMichael]

It seems a valid point that we don't want all the police cars parked in one spot. The parking lots at the stations are not big enough to handle hundreds of additional cars.

But the Tulsa World said that 392 vehicles were taken home by officers to residences outside of Tulsa. That could be divided by officers who work at the three stations and also downtown would mean that on average each would be a hundred cars. Divide that by three shifts and you are probably only seeing 40 new cars in each parking lot.

Can each of the police station parking lots handle 40 extra cars and would that denote too big a risk out of a fleet of 777 cars?

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

It seems a valid point that we don't want all the police cars parked in one spot. The parking lots at the stations are not big enough to handle hundreds of additional cars.

But the Tulsa World said that 392 vehicles were taken home by officers to residences outside of Tulsa. That could be divided by officers who work at the three stations and also downtown would mean that on average each would be a hundred cars. Divide that by three shifts and you are probably only seeing 40 new cars in each parking lot.

Can each of the police station parking lots handle 40 extra cars and would that denote too big a risk out of a fleet of 777 cars?

Just recind the Police Car Take-Home Policy in the interests of Public Safety, i.e. it is TOO dangerous for the police to take the car home because a nasty old terrorist MIGHT steal it to turn into a nasty old car bomb....

Ka-Boom!!!

Then, Park 'em.

You won't have to buy ANY new cars for YEARS....

[}:)]

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

Friendlybear, The Department of Homeland security suggests that police department DO NOT park large numbers of police vehicles in areas.  They suggest take-home cars are one of the safest ways to insure that in an emergency (terrorist attack, natural disaster ect) officers will be able to effectively get to and operate their vehicles.

Youngtulsan has a great point.  Officers have been for that for years but the city won't do anything about it.

Recyclemichael, we've talked about this at length in previous threads.  Officers would love to support Tulsa but officers want to support their families more.  Officers can get more house for less money in the surrounding areas.  Also officers feel like they are less likely to run into someone they arrested when they are with their family when they are outside the city. If the city were to reward officers for living in the city then I'm sure more would move back in.  

The Heimat Sicherheitdienst (Homeland Security Department) may or may not have given that advice.  

The REAL answer is:  IT DEPENDS.

If the cars are concentrated in one location, then they can be guarded.  Cars scattered all over Tulsa are subject to vandalism or theft.

Tulsa is unlikely to suffer a Pearl Harbor type attack.  

The Police Car Take-Home Policy has been justified by a ever changing pretext:

It's about Public Safety within the city limits of Tulsa.

Then, moving the boundary 25 miles from 41st and Yale:  

It's now about TERRORISM.

True Answer:  It's about FREE-LOADERS.

Tulsa should have no more than about 200 police cars.  That would save 4-fold our Capital Expenditures for new police cars, and reduce significantly our fuel expenditures incurred by the City operating budget by eliminating commuting expense.

[}:)]

Thank you for showing that you are completely uninformed. []

My repeated questions has not been answered concerning which other major cities have a similar liberal police car take-home policy?

Of the 100 largest cities in the U.S., besides Tulsa, which ones allow ALL city police to take home their assigned police cars?

Next, which ones allow ALL city police to take home their assigned cars within a 25 mile radius of their employment city?

Answer:  None.

Why:  It's the TULSA PREMIUM!

You mean other then the Oklahoma Highway Patrol?  Third largest police force in this state?  

When you say none of the top 100 largest cities in the US allow take home cars for police, where does that statistic come from?  What is the source of NONE?

[RecycleMichael]

I think that many other city police departments have take home vehicles for a portion of it's  force. I am not sure how many of them allow over 90% of their sworn force to have their own vehicle.

When the price of fuel was relatively low, the policy was probably sound, especially for officers living within the city limits. The advantages are many...the officers can be mobilized quicker in a crisis, you don't need to build large parking areas, and probably most importantly, an officer is probably more likely to take care of a car that they are the only one driving. The maintenence savings from proper care is likely huge.

But when the fuel budget for police cars goes into the millions of dollars, the city has to look at what this policy is costing the taxpayers. It is only prudent for city officials to ask these questions. Other city departments have responded and dozens of public works and fire department employees have lost their take home vehicles this past year.

It is time to ask the police department to make the same sacrifice for some of their vehicles. I think it makes sense to start with vehicles that are going the furthest away each night. Do any of you officers have any other suggested places to start?

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

I think that many other city police departments have take home vehicles for a portion of it's  force. I am not sure how many of them allow over 90% of their sworn force to have their own vehicle.

When the price of fuel was relatively low, the policy was probably sound, especially for officers living within the city limits. The advantages are many...the officers can be mobilized quicker in a crisis, you don't need to build large parking areas, and probably most importantly, an officer is probably more likely to take care of a car that they are the only one driving. The maintenence savings from proper care is likely huge.

But when the fuel budget for police cars goes into the millions of dollars, the city has to look at what this policy is costing the taxpayers. It is only prudent for city officials to ask these questions. Other city departments have responded and dozens of public works and fire department employees have lost their take home vehicles this past year.

It is time to ask the police department to make the same sacrifice for some of their vehicles. I think it makes sense to start with vehicles that are going the furthest away each night. Do any of you officers have any other suggested places to start?

First off, most of this won't effect me because I live in Tulsa but here are some issues I see...

The city will have to make some decisions. If the city decides to take away all police vehicles starting with the people the farthest out, then they will pay more overtime when the people get called in.  Will this extra overtime pay negate the savings the city made in gas?  

What about response times for calls for service?  Now, when officers arrive for work they are ready to go.  Their cars have gas and their stuff is inside and ready. In fact, many times officers will take calls for service on their way into squad meeting. If officers no longer have their take-home cars, they will no longer take these calls on their way into work,which will have them holding longer. Another thing to think about is if officers leave their vehicles at the divisions, they will have to take their stuff out after each shift. That means at the beginning of each shift, they will have to put their stuff back in. That means less time the officers are on the street.

[Breadburner]

I think the case for letting officers take the cars home is well founded....No one has made a decent point for not letting them take them home other than fuel cost....Which to me is just cheap insurance.....

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by Breadburner

I think the case for letting officers take the cars home is well founded....No one has made a decent point for not letting them take them home other than fuel cost....Which to me is just cheap insurance.....

That is exactly correct.  Plus, it puts more police cars on the street.  Those officers driving to and from work are in uniform, have police radios on, enforce laws to and from work and are seen by the public, which gives the appearance to criminals of more police.

Does everyone not think this has been studied (by the city) in the past?  Take-home cars have not been around forever.  The police used to drive cars 24-hours a day and it was a disaster.  Needless to say, police work is hard on a car.  It is not the same and you and me driving to grandma's house on Sunday.

The cars last longer.  You don't have officers who are starting their shift waiting on the officer who is finishing his shift so they can swap police cars.

And when we talk about officers who live outside the city, not all are driving 25-miles home.  Many live just across the city boundary/on the other side of the street that divides Tulsa from Bixby/Broken Arrow/....  They still have a Tulsa mailing address.  Do some drive further?  Yes.  Are there some officers who could drive a car home but choose not to?  You bet.  Some don't want a police car in their driveway (the burglar always knows when the cop is gone).

And remember, other cities around Tulsa let their officers drive their police car home too.  Some of those are parked in Tulsa.

[Wrinkle]

We have to face the fact that this benefit was provided as a perk in lieu of a pay raise.

IF there were any studies done, they were internal to the Mayor's office and not made public, evaluated for criteria of value (just cost), or attempted to be justified using good police protocol as evaluation.

If ever there were a study in need of being done, this would be it.

What does it really cost, and what are the benefits, along with both pros and cons. Then, a presentation and a judgement by our City Council.

The current policy was based soley on politics of the time.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Breadburner

I think the case for letting officers take the cars home is well founded....No one has made a decent point for not letting them take them home other than fuel cost....Which to me is just cheap insurance.....

Cheap?  It costs you $32,000,000 for police vehicles, per the May 2006 renewal of the "Temporary" Itty-Bitty Third Penny Sales Tax.

PLUS, operating costs of fuel, tires, and maintenance, burned up commuting to Mannford, Broken Arrow, Owasso, Jenks, Sapulpa, etc., and also driving to Moonlighting jobs.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

We have to face the fact that this benefit was provided as a perk in lieu of a pay raise.

IF there were any studies done, they were internal to the Mayor's office and not made public, evaluated for criteria of value (just cost), or attempted to be justified using good police protocol as evaluation.

If ever there were a study in need of being done, this would be it.

What does it really cost, and what are the benefits, along with both pros and cons. Then, a presentation and a judgement by our City Council.

The current policy was based soley on politics of the time.

I wouldn't trust the TPD independence and objectivity to conduct a "study" of the cost-effectiveness of the Tulsa Police Car Take-Home Policy, any more than I trust to the TPD to conduct an investigation of themselves as to whether the use of deadly force was justified.

The police are not independent to investigate themselves.  Period.

Nothing to see here; just move along.

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

We have to face the fact that this benefit was provided as a perk in lieu of a pay raise.

IF there were any studies done, they were internal to the Mayor's office and not made public, evaluated for criteria of value (just cost), or attempted to be justified using good police protocol as evaluation.

If ever there were a study in need of being done, this would be it.

What does it really cost, and what are the benefits, along with both pros and cons. Then, a presentation and a judgement by our City Council.

The current policy was based soley on politics of the time.

I wouldn't trust the TPD independence and objectivity to conduct a "study" of the cost-effectiveness of the Tulsa Police Car Take-Home Policy, any more than I trust to the TPD to conduct an investigation of themselves as to whether the use of deadly force was justified.

The police are not independent to investigate themselves.  Period.

Nothing to see here; just move along.

I don't believe the studies were conducted by the police.  I believe the studies were conducted by the City's Equipment Management Division, which is the City's department that takes care of the City's fleet.  Many items go into the studies, such as how long do the cars last, what is the cost of maintenance (And not just maintenance, but how long the car sits waiting for maintenance/repair.  If you have more cars waiting on repair, you then have to consider hiring more mechanics, ...), fuel, .....

There has also been discussion on replacing cars more often.  I've heard (rumor only) the City is looking at a three-year replacement, which always keeps the cars under warranty, you have less down time (the cars are newer) plus they sell for a higher price at auction.

[moosedaddy]

Is there a distance limit for other city departments?  I live about 2 miles east of Inola, and there is a woman in animal control driving a city of Tulsa truck that lives about 1/2 a mile away.

I know the pickup with a special bed cannot get the gas mileage the police cars do so this is costing even more. Why should animal control be able to take their trucks home is homeland security worried about terrorist blowing something up with dogs?  

[Townsend]

quote:Originally posted by moosedaddy

Is there a distance limit for other city departments?  I live about 2 miles east of Inola, and there is a woman in animal control driving a city of Tulsa truck that lives about 1/2 a mile away.

I know the pickup with a special bed cannot get the gas mileage the police cars do so this is costing even more. Why should animal control be able to take their trucks home is homeland security worried about terrorist blowing something up with dogs?  

I'm guessing the oversite committee is probably missing that one.

[bokworker]

Moose... I can almost see the animal control officer having an even greater need to have their vehicle at all times. I suspect that they are on call basically 24/7 as there are far fewer of them than TPD officers. I know many calls for animal control are not particularly dangerous but the ones that are require a quick response....