dented panels on the BOK center

[tim huntzinger]

I know that the City of Tulsa Civic Arena is a money loser, was overbudget and will underperform, but it is fun to photograph.  Sort of like a car wreck! Ha ha!

[AVERAGE JOE]

Tim: source? Care to cite some facts?

Wait, I'll go ahead and cite some facts for you. Funny, they completely disprove your statement -- there's a projected first-year profit and the sales tax collections are outperforming projections.

Try again.

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

Tim: source? Care to cite some facts?

Wait, I'll go ahead and cite some facts for you. Funny, they completely disprove your statement -- there's a projected first-year profit and the sales tax collections are outperforming projections.

Try again.

If it makes $50K/month per penny of Sales Tax for the City (as the cited article suggests), the City would make 3-Cents worth, or $150,000/month. Less than $2 Million/year.

...if they can't make money with the events list of the past four months, it'll never do better.

Can't really judge it until the start of year four, however. But, those who planned and hoisted this upon us will likely all be gone by then.

Don't get me wrong, it's nice to have and looks great. But, we've been lied to over and over about what the costs are and will be.

Most the Sales Tax revenues the City receives appears to be being spent on Police overtime to block roads and direct traffic during events.

[Hometown]

Based on our history I would say there is a very good chance we will not maintain it.

Has the architect spoken about the condition of the panels?  I guess it's possible the building was supposed to take on a "patina."  Like copper elements of a building are supposed to develop a patina (an aged surface).

But you know how even the most expensive stuff is not well made anymore.  You know how the work product in the U.S. has gone to h***.  We may be getting a patina whether the architect intended that or not.

One of the downtown Tulsa signs blew over last week.

I'm still freaked out about all the relatively new brick sidewalks downtown that have broken up.  Hope the city is familiar with the concept of a guarantee though I wouldn't bet money on it.  Then you run across one of these old alleys with brick from our founding days and it's in perfect condition.

[tim huntzinger]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

Tim: source? Care to cite some facts?

Wait, I'll go ahead and cite some facts for you. Funny, they completely disprove your statement -- there's a projected first-year profit and the sales tax collections are outperforming projections.

Try again.

So it 'made' $300K for the City, County, and State combined and that is a great deal? Huh? Operating expenses notwithstanding, the thing cost how much to build? These things never ever 'make' money. That is horribleuming all income and no debt.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Based on our history I would say there is a very good chance we will not maintain it.

Has the architect spoken about the condition of the panels?  I guess it's possible the building was supposed to take on a "patina."  Like copper elements of a building are supposed to develop a patina (an aged surface).

But you know how even the most expensive stuff is not well made anymore.  You know how the work product in the U.S. has gone to h***.  We may be getting a patina whether the architect intended that or not.

One of the downtown Tulsa signs blew over last week.

I'm still freaked out about all the relatively new brick sidewalks downtown that have broken up.  Hope the city is familiar with the concept of a guarantee though I wouldn't bet money on it.  Then you run across one of these old alleys with brick from our founding days and it's in perfect condition.

From what I've heard if it was done by the City/DTU there is no warranty or followup but places like Centennial Green where donors are involved, they will make sure there is followup (like the dead trees)

Pelli has no said anything about the dirty panels but I've heard from Vision Builders that it is not Patina, just stuff that got caught in the creases during construction, when we have high winds, etc.

[tshane250]

Profitability, or lack thereof, of the arena aside, the thing still brings attention to the city as well as bringing in outsiders who spend their money here - eating, sleeping, shopping, etc.  Overall IMO, I think its benefits outweigh its costs.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

City of Tulsa Civic Arena

What's that?

Also, I don't think anyone was sold the idea of building an arena to make the city/county money.  If you thought it was going to pay off operating expenses, maintenance AND the underlying debt then you were not paying attention.  If we cover operating and maintenance while adding commerce to the city then we have done what was sold to us.

I generally don't buy in to the "economic impact" numbers and doubt the arena will have the huge direct economic impact that we were sold on.  But the fact of the matter is an arena, convention center, regional airport, and certain other amenities are expected of a city our size.  In and of themselves they do not generate wealth, but as part of the entire city they can improve the quality of life, attractiveness, and commercial potential of the area.

At least, IMHO.

[tim huntzinger]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

City of Tulsa Civic Arena

What's that?

Also, I don't think anyone was sold the idea of building an arena to make the city/county money.  If you thought it was going to pay off operating expenses, maintenance AND the underlying debt then you were not paying attention.  If we cover operating and maintenance while adding commerce to the city then we have done what was sold to us.

I generally don't buy in to the "economic impact" numbers and doubt the arena will have the huge direct economic impact that we were sold on.  But the fact of the matter is an arena, convention center, regional airport, and certain other amenities are expected of a city our size.  In and of themselves they do not generate wealth, but as part of the entire city they can improve the quality of life, attractiveness, and commercial potential of the area.

At least, IMHO.

So which is it? This is making money for the region but the City is supposed to take the loss? Avg Joe thinks the thing is 'making' money because the World said so.  Are they both wrong?  If the equation were that simple, why is the County or State or even the City ponying up the cash for the LPGA?

[cannon_fodder]

1. The tax is city/county.  So a regional economic gain would suffice.

2. They are apparently making money above the operating + maintenance costs, but I do not believe that includes the payments on the bonds (tax revenue).  This is a tax financed project, not self funded.  In the greater picture, it is not making money as a stand alone venture.

3. The city/county/state would have to assess the overall impact of the LPGA to see if it makes economic sense.  However, since such an event has the primary objective of benefiting professional golfers, equipment manufacturers, and the league itself it does not seem like a proper expenditure of funds.

At the end of the note, the City of Tulsa will own a structure it can utilize for revenue as it sees fit.  There is a difference between building a public structure , and sponsoring a private event. If you are at a loss to spot the subtle difference, I will surely not be able to explain it to you.
- - -

Your objection to the arena is very well known.  You hate the idea, the design, the tax, the leadership, the acts, the price, the materials used for construction, the budget, ad nasium.  We get it.  You more subtle notes are merely new ways to whine about the same old things.

[tim huntzinger]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

1. The tax is city/county.  So a regional economic gain would suffice.

2. They are apparently making money above the operating + maintenance costs, but I do not believe that includes the payments on the bonds (tax revenue).  This is a tax financed project, not self funded.  In the greater picture, it is not making money as a stand alone venture.

3. The city/county/state would have to assess the overall impact of the LPGA to see if it makes economic sense.  However, since such an event has the primary objective of benefiting professional golfers, equipment manufacturers, and the league itself it does not seem like a proper expenditure of funds.

At the end of the note, the City of Tulsa will own a structure it can utilize for revenue as it sees fit.  There is a difference between building a public structure , and sponsoring a private event. If you are at a loss to spot the subtle difference, I will surely not be able to explain it to you.
- - -

Your objection to the arena is very well known.  You hate the idea, the design, the tax, the leadership, the acts, the price, the materials used for construction, the budget, ad nasium.  We get it.  You more subtle notes are merely new ways to whine about the same old things.

Subtle? Ha ha ha! Whine? Whatever! You are a 'libertarian'? Ha ha! 'Lib' is right!  What a joke!

[cannon_fodder]

Meaningful and though filled as always.

But I think this is the first time I've been called a "lib" on this forum, which is devastating I tell ya'.

[tim huntzinger]

Ha! Well, one insult deserves another! 'Subtle!'