41st & Harvard - Christmas Tree Lot

[PonderInc]

Here's the deal.  The owner of the land doesn't want to sell it, he wants to sign 50-year leases with national chains, who will also build the buildings for him.  The only lease they've got so far is CVS.  They also want a grocery store and a "restaurant with a drive thru."  The long-skinny building will be "mixed-use" which means offices or possible retail space.

The neighborhood has been in "negotiations" with the "developer."  It goes like this:

Neighborhood: Can you move the buildings closer to the street and hide the parking behind? This will make it more attractive, pedestrian-friendly, neighbor-friendly, and eliminate the need for lots of pole signage.  It will also create a larger distance between the loading dock and people's back yards. - Answer: Nope.

Neighborhood: We'll support a request for a variance for less parking (to reduce the giant footprint and create a larger buffer between people's backyards and the loading dock).  This will also save some residential homes from demolition. - Answer: Nope.  We don't want to mess with a variance.

Neighborhood: Because it's already hard to turn west on 41st from Jamestown, we would like you to eliminate the eastern-most curb cut on 41st. - Answer: Nope. We'll eliminate one on Harvard instead.  The eastern curb cut (area closest to the neighbors' back yards) is needed for "truck circulation."  

Neighborhood: We want it to be pedestrian friendly.  Putting most of the parking behind the buildings will make it more assessible from the sidewalks. - Answer: We'll paint "crosswalks" on the asphalt, instead.

Neighborhood: If you want this to be a "mini-Utica Square" (as you claim), it needs more landscaping, and the buildings should be closer to the street. - Answer: We'll stick in some more shrubs and stuff.

Neighborhood: Five pole signs is excessive, and will add too much visual clutter to the corner. We ask that there not be pole signs. - Answer: OK, We'll put in five, "monument signs" (up to 8-feet tall) instead.

Neighborhood: B/c the loading dock is close to the residences behind it, we ask that you limit the delivery hours to 7-7. - Answer: we'll do 7-9 on the loading dock.  CVS can have deliveries 24/7.

The funny thing is that INCOG staff has recommended that the footprint is too big, and should be smaller.  The developer is asking the neighborhood to support their proposal over the recommendations of staff!  I don't see why anyone should.  The only things they've agreed to that the neighborhood asked for were either 1) things that they were going to do anyway or 2)things that don't matter to them.

[Gaspar]

Who is the owner?  

[PonderInc]

Bill Manley owns the corner and he's gradually amassed several homes surrounding it that are now rentals.

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

Bill Manley owns the corner and he's gradually amassed several homes surrounding it that are now rentals.

OK, I remember.  He's tried to put a Wal-mart there for years.

[PonderInc]

The Walmart that was defeated was 5.13 acres.  This PUD is for 8.2 acres (gross).

[PonderInc]

Oh, and here's how they're going to blend in with the 1950's Ranch Acres architecture...


Which looks weirdly similar to most everything I'm seeing in south Tulsa, Bixby, Broken Arrow...

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

Oh, and here's how they're going to blend in with the 1950's Ranch Acres architecture...


Which looks weirdly similar to most everything I'm seeing in south Tulsa, Bixby, Broken Arrow...

Nice rendering. Do you know who's doing the Architecture?

[grahambino]

41st and Harvard.
Oh yes.  That beautiful intersection...w/ the giant real-estate sign on the NW corner...
the shifty gas station on the NE...
the dry cleaners & transmission shop on the SW....
AND to top it off, an empty lot on the SE.

I can obviously see some would want to preserve the integrity of that beautiful corner & not sully it w/ a grocery store.

jeepers h crackers..

[carltonplace]

That's not the point at all.

Why perpetuate half-hearted development that keeps the status quo or brings sub-urban zoning and function into urban areas. Why continue to battle neighborhoods (potential customers) especialy when they are trying so hard to help find middle ground.

The point of the posters here is that this is a lost opportunity to build something better that the neighbors and Tulsa could have been proud of; a place where they would most likely spend a lot of time shopping and dining. Instead it's just more of the same. It certainly isn't "Harvard Square".

Drive through please.

[PonderInc]

Why do something wonderful and amazing, when everyone else is making a quick buck on mediocre crap?  Because designing something better than the status quo is the only way to dig ourselves out of the ugly hole we've fallen into.  I don't want Tulsa's official motto to be: "Whatever's good enough for an interstate corridor in Topeka, KS is good enough for me."

[grahambino]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

Why do something wonderful and amazing, when everyone else is making a quick buck on mediocre crap?  Because designing something better than the status quo is the only way to dig ourselves out of the ugly hole we've fallen into.  I don't want Tulsa's official motto to be: "Whatever's good enough for an interstate corridor in Topeka, KS is good enough for me."

It's obvious that has not the interest of this City, or there would not be a couple ugly giant teeth on Peoria...a PANDA BUFFET sign that I believe can be seen from space on E 31st...on and on...

I don't disagree with you, but Tulsa's appeared to have this what I've described as like some wild-west-anything goes development standards up until...well....I can't say its stopped.

I just don't think this corner is something that is worth preserving or sprucing up. In my opinion that entire Harvard corridor north of about I-44 to say the BA, on the east side is already about as ugly as it can get...(okay, I admit, I do like the Ranch Acres BoK building) but the other stuff isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

I certainly don't think some faux-Tuscan style would fit at that corner and would just look silly.

Just make the developer put in sidewalks for Limecat's sake...

[PonderInc]

I agree that the east side of Harvard from 41st to 31st is terribly ugly. But remember: we built it.  We can change it.  We created the ordinances/zoning that created it.  We can change that, too.

To me, the solution is simple: 1.)Remove hideous signage (this is over half the battle!), 2.) Bury utilities, 3.) Create shared parking lots behind the shops, and eliminate parking in front. 4.) Create a wide, landscaped, pedestrian walkway along the fronts of all the shops.  (Most of them aren't that far back from the street, if you notice.)  

All of a sudden, you would have an attractive Brookside-like destination w/ plenty of space for patio dining and window shopping. (If you notice, the architecture on Brookside isn't that special.  It's the variety of bars, restaurants and shops in a condensed area that attracts people.)   Heck, you'd even have space for a bike trail between the walkway and the road....which would be a great north-south asset to cyclists.

I don't know what it would take to make this happen...some sort of Harvard merchant's association would be a good start.  But I'll keep dreaming of a better place, where we don't just cave in to ugliness and the lowest common denominator, for every major arterial and commercial development in town.

[cannon_fodder]

Demolition has begun on the site.

The building on the lower left is no longer there (the swing set remains though) and the structure on 41st St. with the red roof was torn down yesterday.  Demolition started on Tuesday so they are moving right along.  The other two structures along 41st hard marked for demolition. When I walked by around 7:45 this AM the hoe and bobcat weren't running yet - but I image the other buildings are gone by next week. 

Glad to see that it is moving forward.  IMHO the space was largely wasted and the structures were in a bad state of repair.  At least 2 of them were probably knockdowns for any potential buyer.  I hope the development is something different . . .

(I took pictures, but I can not upload at work so . . . imagine a pile of rubble.  That's what is left of the red roofed building. The other one is totally gone)

[PonderInc]

I feel bad for the guy on the corner of 41st and Jamestown.  He has done a lot of work to make the house and landscaping look nice.  Now, his house is going to be a little island on the edge of the asphalt.

The reason the other homes along 41st are "teardowns" is b/c the owner of the XMas tree lot has been land banking / slumlording for years.  Thus: acquiring properties, renting them out, not maintaining them... so they become a worthless eye sore. 

At the TMAPC meeting when this PUD was discussed, the land owner's lawyer talked about how the new development would be "so much nicer than what's there now."  Yeah... b/c the old geezer who owns all those properties has let them totally decline!  Now let's reward him with a bunch of long-term leases with national chains!

What does the neighborhood get?  An asphalt heat island.  A bunch of national chains that will cause more vacancies in existing, nearby (locally owned) commercial properties.  A redundant drug store (there are already about 5 within a mile or so of this intersection).

Way to add value to the neighborhood...er...Mr. Manley's already deep pockets.

[sgrizzle]

Well the neighborhood behind it will now pass "the popsicle test"...