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November 24, 2020, 02:11:05 pm
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Author Topic: Devon to acquire WPX  (Read 5191 times)
Dspike
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« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2020, 02:15:20 pm »

The WPX building vacancy must complicate Santa Fe Square. Last I hear they were needing an anchor tenant to move forward. Any potential anchor tenant could now just move into (or buy!) the WPX building. Until proven otherwise, I expect this WPX move sinks Santa Fe Square for at least another 3-5 years.
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LandArchPoke
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« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2020, 05:24:53 pm »

This and Santa Fe Square should be the last office space projects for the foreseeable future. Downtown should then focus on becoming a true neighborhood with infill focused on housing (mid-scale housing preferably to the mega complexes that we've seen recently), grocers, retailers, dry cleaners, drug stores, things that stay open through the evening for local residents to do their daily things and that can also attract outsiders for shopping or unique needs. I know there are barriers to that, but I am still a dreamer that downtown could be a real mixed neighborhood throughout the entire IDL.

Santa Fe Square's office portion will probably be scrapped after this announcement. You have the office building at Archer/Greenwood under construction and I don't think they have a tenant yet so that's going to be another 50k to 100k of space (I can't remember what the size of that building will be)

There's also a big chunk of BOK space that's coming on line from the Williams I & II towers - I think they are consolidating into WPX's old space so they can have everyone under one building. So there's easily going to be 500,000 sq ft in Class A space on the market and that will take a couple years to back fill if we can't get any out of market tenant to expand in Tulsa.

This will be the biggest hole in the CBD market since the city bought One Tech and took it off the market.

Even citywide, it's not looking great for the office market for a while. You have the Unit Corp building too that has a lot of vacant space, if Unit Corp even survives much longer.
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« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2020, 08:37:15 pm »

Santa Fe Square's office portion will probably be scrapped after this announcement. You have the office building at Archer/Greenwood under construction and I don't think they have a tenant yet so that's going to be another 50k to 100k of space (I can't remember what the size of that building will be)

There's also a big chunk of BOK space that's coming on line from the Williams I & II towers - I think they are consolidating into WPX's old space so they can have everyone under one building. So there's easily going to be 500,000 sq ft in Class A space on the market and that will take a couple years to back fill if we can't get any out of market tenant to expand in Tulsa.

This will be the biggest hole in the CBD market since the city bought One Tech and took it off the market.

Even citywide, it's not looking great for the office market for a while. You have the Unit Corp building too that has a lot of vacant space, if Unit Corp even survives much longer.

Office space in general is going to be a tough sell for a couple years due to so many people working remotely.  The above factors certainly donít help but it does present some good opportunities for companies looking to expand in Tulsa.
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« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2020, 10:04:15 am »

Office space in general is going to be a tough sell for a couple years due to so many people working remotely.  The above factors certainly donít help but it does present some good opportunities for companies looking to expand in Tulsa.

And already more than a quarter-million square feet negative absorption in the first half of 2020, just in the CBD; more than 1/2 million market-wide.
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« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2020, 07:35:59 am »

I hope you don't work for the chamber or economic development, keep living in the small town mindset. It's gotten Tulsa really far so far. Don't take into account the world is change over the next 10 years or that this region has changed in the past 10 years.

Don't be such an d*** to people who have a different vision for the city or different perspective. Calling people delusional is not needed, take a chill pill and step away. It's really not that serious for other people to have different thought, good grief. I will not be responding to you again.

Wichita to Downtown KCMO: 195 Miles
Wichita to Downtown Tulsa: 176 Miles

Joplin to Downtown KCMO: 158 Miles
Joplin to Downtown Tulsa: 113 Miles

Springfield to Downtown Tulsa: 181 Miles
Springfield to Downtown KCMO: 166 Miles (10 mins faster)

source: Google Maps, check it.

COMPLETELY DELUSIONAL AND FALSE I TELL YOU. There's no hope in ever marketing Tulsa from a regional perspective ever!! LOL  Roll Eyes


Small town IS our reality.  We - meaning Oklahoma in general - have put up barriers for decades from pay roads in an out, to small town parochial attitudes that made companies 'jump through hoops' to get to play in the sandbox.  I remember a few years ago a company considering a move to Tulsa and after the dust cleared, the people said no.  They literally said it was like dealing with a bunch of kindergartener's.

That is what we have to change. 

Plus, places like Dallas were brilliant at getting thing like the Dallas Market - decades ago!   I remember going there with family for a local store in the early 60's.  Automatic draw for a LOT of people!




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« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2020, 02:50:36 pm »


Small town IS our reality.  We - meaning Oklahoma in general - have put up barriers for decades from pay roads in an out, to small town parochial attitudes that made companies 'jump through hoops' to get to play in the sandbox.  I remember a few years ago a company considering a move to Tulsa and after the dust cleared, the people said no.  They literally said it was like dealing with a bunch of kindergartener's.

That is what we have to change.  

Plus, places like Dallas were brilliant at getting thing like the Dallas Market - decades ago!   I remember going there with family for a local store in the early 60's.  Automatic draw for a LOT of people!






Exactly, the Dallas Market is a great example to how Dallas built itself into a regional hub. At one point there was a debate of wether Tulsa or Dallas would be the south's 'big' city. We've obviously seen how that turned out given Tulsa's leadership over the past few decades being less aggressive and having a small town mindset. We let Houston pick off oil company after oil company and just pointed fingers instead of actually doing anything to increase the quality of life in the city to make us more competitive. That's why I'm more hopeful than ever for Tulsa is largely because of Kaiser's investments in the Gathering Place, education, etc. Can we capitalize on it is the question. The efforts for Tesla made me hopeful as well, but that seemed to be a lot of outside effort beyond the chamber and typical business development people - some might label them as delusional too I guess... the old mindset of Tulsa was why should we even bother instead of why not take a chance.

The reason why I brought up regionalism in this thread is because the WPX site is rather unique being right in the middle of an entertainment district and frankly can't think of a similar site outside of H&R's KCMO HQ in Power & Light or developments down in Dallas/Austin in states immediately around Oklahoma. Also a few blocks from a coding school (Holberton). It's a great opportunity for someone with the city to cast a wide net and maybe with some tailwind from the Tesla campaign we might snag someone.

I personally believe going after some Austin based companies that are expanding rapidly (like Indeed.com and VRBO) who could use some cheaper office space for entry level positions is the best chance for Tulsa. Both of those companies have built several large offices in Austin in the past five years. Office rent in Austin is getting near $50/sf or more on Class A new construction. Tulsa is still an easy drive between the two cities and it would be logical that we could convince some airline to set up direct flights to Austin from Tulsa. Austin still is 'cheap' to California companies where rent for new office in San Francisco is nearing $100/sf, so it would be more better to pursue a company that might see Austin as expensive versus 'cheap'.

Austin and Dallas to an extent started off as 'cheap' back office or entry level job office locations for companies and through that demonstrated they could recruit talent to these locals and invested in quality of life project to get to where they are now, Austin is almost as desirable of a local as San Francisco is for tech and Dallas is eating everyone's lunch including NYC and other much larger cities (JPMorgan Chase, State Farm, ToyotaUSA, Uber, etc.). Denver would be another good example of markets we should target - looking for Denver based companies who could use additional space, but could use a cheaper option than Denver as companies from California drive up rents. Not for full relocation, but small expansion spaces. The more of these we get and demonstrate we can recruit talent, the easier it is to sell full relocation or larger secondary hq or regional locations to companies down the road.

If someone opened an office location in Tulsa - they could recruit people from NWA, OKC, etc. wether it was a partially remote worker or full relocation requirement - those aren't exactly difficult moves for someone to come to Tulsa from NWA or OKC. Austin was able to leverage it's location near San Antonio well and at one point Austin was not as desirable as San Antonio - so it's certainly not delusional to use as a selling point for someone looking at Tulsa to discuss it being in the middle point between OKC-NWA-SWMO which is a much larger population than many people think. Also includes more universities to recruit from (U of Arkansas, Missouri State, Wichita State, etc.) and not exactly a hard sell to get someone from U of A to move to Tulsa either.

Final point, is another thing I rarely see people discuss when trying to sell Tulsa is the actual MSA of Tulsa doesn't include Bartlesville, Muskogee, or Pryor. Mid-America has even discussed this as a hurdle to some companies and why we haven't made a bigger point to Census officials to designate these areas as part of MSA is beyond me. Low hanging fruit that would push the population up for the MSA to well over a million. Part of it is they are more self contained and not a bedroom community as much as typical suburbs. Also, Grand Lake is something I see ignored by most which is highly tied to Tulsa. The average home price along Grand Lake is almost $400k (twice the state average) and has a full time population of 200k+ (larger than BA/Owasso combined) as it's a huge retirement location for wealthy Tulsan, and Tulsa is the primary large city in relation to Grand Lake. So the immediate Tulsa area is much larger than a lot think (closer to 1.3-1.5 million when including Grand Lake). Is it easier to sell a market of slightly under a million or closer to 1.5 million?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2020, 03:04:50 pm by LandArchPoke » Logged
heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2020, 06:26:05 pm »



Exactly, the Dallas Market is a great example to how Dallas built itself into a regional hub. At one point there was a debate of wether Tulsa or Dallas would be the south's 'big' city. We've obviously seen how that turned out given Tulsa's leadership over the past few decades being less aggressive and having a small town mindset. We let Houston pick off oil company after oil company and just pointed fingers instead of actually doing anything to increase the quality of life in the city to make us more competitive. That's why I'm more hopeful than ever for Tulsa is largely because of Kaiser's investments in the Gathering Place, education, etc. Can we capitalize on it is the question. The efforts for Tesla made me hopeful as well, but that seemed to be a lot of outside effort beyond the chamber and typical business development people - some might label them as delusional too I guess... the old mindset of Tulsa was why should we even bother instead of why not take a chance.


Final point, is another thing I rarely see people discuss when trying to sell Tulsa is the actual MSA of Tulsa doesn't include Bartlesville, Muskogee, or Pryor. Mid-America has even discussed this as a hurdle to some companies and why we haven't made a bigger point to Census officials to designate these areas as part of MSA is beyond me. Low hanging fruit that would push the population up for the MSA to well over a million. Part of it is they are more self contained and not a bedroom community as much as typical suburbs. Also, Grand Lake is something I see ignored by most which is highly tied to Tulsa. The average home price along Grand Lake is almost $400k (twice the state average) and has a full time population of 200k+ (larger than BA/Owasso combined) as it's a huge retirement location for wealthy Tulsan, and Tulsa is the primary large city in relation to Grand Lake. So the immediate Tulsa area is much larger than a lot think (closer to 1.3-1.5 million when including Grand Lake). Is it easier to sell a market of slightly under a million or closer to 1.5 million?


We have also had some of the things Dallas had along the line.  Theirs reached 'critical mass' and ours kinda wandered off into the weeds.  Companies like Texas Instruments.  Started out as Geophysical Service - oil, of course.  We had REDA doing downhole oil pumps since the 20's and while it is still doing ok as part of bigger company, TI took off like a rocket.  Something about Tulsa just didn't "click" probably during the 60's.  International Petroleum Exposition was here for quite a while as were so many of the companies around it.  The IPE building was built just as it died....now the QuikTrip center.

Lots of those kind of things move around to push/pull areas in one direction or the other.   Today, Dallas is an attraction on it's own.  Tulsa isn't.   I have pushed people for years to come visit, move here, get the company here.  Something as simple as good size conferences/trade shows even.  The only question asked is what is there to do there?   Big events want Disneyland, Las Vegas, or amusement parks....we don't have the scale needed to attract.

Grand Lake has been 'big' for a long time...it's where the rich/elite go to get away from town.  Or used to.  Don't think it has changed that much.  Had a friend with a nice little business here who bought a helicopter to commute with.  Did that for years.  Rich area surrounded by a lot of meth.  Like a lot of Oklahoma.


Mid-America is plugging along doing very well.  They lost a big RV bus manufacturer years ago, but they have google now.  And it seems to expand regularly.  And new companies seem to pop up there regularly.   Not that many people work at google, but it is a big 'presence' in the area.





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« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2020, 06:54:43 pm »

I personally believe going after some Austin based companies that are expanding rapidly (like Indeed.com and VRBO) who could use some cheaper office space for entry level positions is the best chance for Tulsa. Both of those companies have built several large offices in Austin in the past five years. Office rent in Austin is getting near $50/sf or more on Class A new construction. Tulsa is still an easy drive between the two cities and it would be logical that we could convince some airline to set up direct flights to Austin from Tulsa. Austin still is 'cheap' to California companies where rent for new office in San Francisco is nearing $100/sf, so it would be more better to pursue a company that might see Austin as expensive versus 'cheap'.

Not having a nonstop flight to Austin would hurt, maybe Delta as they build up their focus city there or Southwest will eventually start that route.  Until then Denver and Chicago should be primary targets because of easy and plentiful nonstop flights to TUL.  Denver especially has built itself into a tech hub but housing and office costs there are extremely high for a non-coastal city.  Kansas City seems to be a popular place for people escaping Denver and, while obviously smaller, we arenít that different than KCMO.
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« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2020, 08:49:18 pm »

"What is there to do here?"  Isn't that interesting that that comes up with companies. One side note that didn't get any attention but caught mine was something the Tesla people said when talking about the site in Austin was "It's right next to a trail system."   How is it that "unbusiness like", unfinancial, "fluff" things like that even rank a mention?   Of course the numbers have to work, but once that factor is addressed then it is "Quality of life, what is there to do here, is it a fun cool place where I can be happy (even if its illusion and  what is the perception of others)?" sort of things come into play.

The Gathering Place with its Childrens museum and the whitewater components will act as a solid quality of life component.

Downtown  is getting there (Hopefully the WPX building gets built as it will connect and anchor different districts) and the building up of different museums/attractions in the area will get us to a critical mass of "things to do" in that area.

Route 66 has the potential to be a fun quirky thing that can act as an anchor for multiple fun attractions/things to do.

Music/club scene for the young folk.... I am past that phase so not sure how that is in Tulsa these days lol. But it usually takes care of itself based on demand.

Restaurant scene is quite good, (keeping fingers crossed that things survive during this covid crisis)

Shopping (strolling down a street spending part of a day,( aka breakfast to lunch, or an evening, with friends, a date, your partner, out of town visitor...)  sucks in Tulsa. Woodland is getting sadder and sadder, Utica Square...rotting in place, Brookside & Cherry street are small and do not have a critical mass of shops. Downtown, nothing really and what there is terribly disconnected.  And we have no real arts shopping district ta boot.  And I have found that the "powers that be" with the city don't get the importance of this lifestyle factor, don't understand how it works, and or don't care enough to do anything about it.  The WPX building or the Santa Fe Square development could turn that around downtown if they get in the right mix of ground floor restaurant/retail.  Which is my main hope for the WPX building.
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« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2020, 11:37:25 pm »

Have to disagree about Utica Square.  Still seems as lively as ever even with COVID taking its toll on some of the retail businesses.  Am I frustrated Pettyís/Miss Jacksonís hasnít been redeveloped?  Of course.  And Utica could be an even more vibrant center if there was more mixed-use retail/residential built on the periphery.  With a few key improvements I think that could be the half-day shopping/dining district you said we lack.
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« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2020, 01:42:58 am »

Have to disagree about Utica Square.  Still seems as lively as ever even with COVID taking its toll on some of the retail businesses.  Am I frustrated Pettyís/Miss Jacksonís hasnít been redeveloped?  Of course.  And Utica could be an even more vibrant center if there was more mixed-use retail/residential built on the periphery.  With a few key improvements I think that could be the half-day shopping/dining district you said we lack.

I understand the frustration, but I have to ask, what local business/businesses can you attract to Utica Square that would provide that kind of draw? I can remember when someone in the family had a doctors appointment at the Utica Square medical building when it was there, and we would have lunch and window shop and spend some time there. Same for downtown when Renberg's, Vandevers, and I think JC Penney had stores downtown, along with Thomas Cadillac, Parrish & Clark Dodge, Fred Jones Ford, Jim Norton Buick Opel, City Chevrolet, and Bill White Chevrolet. There were various drug stores and soda counters and specialty clothing stores, as well as places to eat.

I remember when Frougs had a store downtown and in Crystal City, and you had Otasco downtown, BF Goodrich and Good Year car service centers.

Having been back a few times in the last three years, that's the one thing that I mis from growing up in the 60's and 70's was the local and regional stores, and since the meltdown in the economy in 2007, most national businesses have cut back on expansion or closed stores.

In the 60's and 70's Tulsa had HQ's for most every oil company in the world. It also had McDonnell Douglas, North American Rockwell, and Telex. Telex was a big gov't contractor for the electronics for the cruise missile program as well as building computer equipment for companies around the globe. They were on par with IBM at the time. McDonnell Douglas was building assemblies for Boeing for the 747, they built things for the space program as well as North American Rockwell.

Tulsa didn't piss it away, it was a victim of contraction of industries in the 80's and 90's, and Tulsa couldn't or didn't react fast enough to the changes.

I think if Tulsa had been able to attract companies like Honeywell, Motorola, if Telex hadn't sat on their donkey, back in the 70's it might be a different landscape now.

I have to say that being back a few times recently I'm glad to see the rebirth and new growth downtown, and I hope it continues, but Tulsa is still stuck in the oil industry of the 60's mentality.

Just my two cents as a native.
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« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2020, 02:33:25 am »

Exactly, the Dallas Market is a great example to how Dallas built itself into a regional hub. At one point there was a debate of wether Tulsa or Dallas would be the south's 'big' city. We've obviously seen how that turned out given Tulsa's leadership over the past few decades being less aggressive and having a small town mindset. We let Houston pick off oil company after oil company and just pointed fingers instead of actually doing anything to increase the quality of life in the city to make us more competitive. That's why I'm more hopeful than ever for Tulsa is largely because of Kaiser's investments in the Gathering Place, education, etc. Can we capitalize on it is the question. The efforts for Tesla made me hopeful as well, but that seemed to be a lot of outside effort beyond the chamber and typical business development people - some might label them as delusional too I guess... the old mindset of Tulsa was why should we even bother instead of why not take a chance.

The reason why I brought up regionalism in this thread is because the WPX site is rather unique being right in the middle of an entertainment district and frankly can't think of a similar site outside of H&R's KCMO HQ in Power & Light or developments down in Dallas/Austin in states immediately around Oklahoma. Also a few blocks from a coding school (Holberton). It's a great opportunity for someone with the city to cast a wide net and maybe with some tailwind from the Tesla campaign we might snag someone.

I personally believe going after some Austin based companies that are expanding rapidly (like Indeed.com and VRBO) who could use some cheaper office space for entry level positions is the best chance for Tulsa. Both of those companies have built several large offices in Austin in the past five years. Office rent in Austin is getting near $50/sf or more on Class A new construction. Tulsa is still an easy drive between the two cities and it would be logical that we could convince some airline to set up direct flights to Austin from Tulsa. Austin still is 'cheap' to California companies where rent for new office in San Francisco is nearing $100/sf, so it would be more better to pursue a company that might see Austin as expensive versus 'cheap'.

Austin and Dallas to an extent started off as 'cheap' back office or entry level job office locations for companies and through that demonstrated they could recruit talent to these locals and invested in quality of life project to get to where they are now, Austin is almost as desirable of a local as San Francisco is for tech and Dallas is eating everyone's lunch including NYC and other much larger cities (JPMorgan Chase, State Farm, ToyotaUSA, Uber, etc.). Denver would be another good example of markets we should target - looking for Denver based companies who could use additional space, but could use a cheaper option than Denver as companies from California drive up rents. Not for full relocation, but small expansion spaces. The more of these we get and demonstrate we can recruit talent, the easier it is to sell full relocation or larger secondary hq or regional locations to companies down the road.

If someone opened an office location in Tulsa - they could recruit people from NWA, OKC, etc. wether it was a partially remote worker or full relocation requirement - those aren't exactly difficult moves for someone to come to Tulsa from NWA or OKC. Austin was able to leverage it's location near San Antonio well and at one point Austin was not as desirable as San Antonio - so it's certainly not delusional to use as a selling point for someone looking at Tulsa to discuss it being in the middle point between OKC-NWA-SWMO which is a much larger population than many people think. Also includes more universities to recruit from (U of Arkansas, Missouri State, Wichita State, etc.) and not exactly a hard sell to get someone from U of A to move to Tulsa either.

Final point, is another thing I rarely see people discuss when trying to sell Tulsa is the actual MSA of Tulsa doesn't include Bartlesville, Muskogee, or Pryor. Mid-America has even discussed this as a hurdle to some companies and why we haven't made a bigger point to Census officials to designate these areas as part of MSA is beyond me. Low hanging fruit that would push the population up for the MSA to well over a million. Part of it is they are more self contained and not a bedroom community as much as typical suburbs. Also, Grand Lake is something I see ignored by most which is highly tied to Tulsa. The average home price along Grand Lake is almost $400k (twice the state average) and has a full time population of 200k+ (larger than BA/Owasso combined) as it's a huge retirement location for wealthy Tulsan, and Tulsa is the primary large city in relation to Grand Lake. So the immediate Tulsa area is much larger than a lot think (closer to 1.3-1.5 million when including Grand Lake). Is it easier to sell a market of slightly under a million or closer to 1.5 million?



AMEN!  All of it. 

One other question.  If not for the Chamber of Commerce, would we be Paris, TX?  The reason I ask is that the Tulsa Chamber gets best chamber in the nation awards on a seemingly regular basis.  Yet, in the last 10-15 years at least 20 major corporate headquarters or big regional offices have left here or been bought out and left.  If not for the Chamber,  would it be worse?  Or am I not understanding its role?  Is getting the "BEST" award the thing?  As I've put forward before , it seems like Tulsa does study after study after research project after research project and they just collect dust --- like the study is the thing not a result.  It's kind of like empathy.  Empathy from a politician without doing anything to improve constituents conditions is acting --- useless.  Frankly, we could also use some fire in the belly big money types --- thin-skinned, gaudy builders -  Jerry Jones types.  The people willing to do outlandish things --- like buy useless swampland in Florida to create Disney World (he'd be a billionaire today) in addition to our urbane, social equity, Ivy League wealthy who are as appreciated as it gets.  But is anyone willing to do what Atlanta did when it got the Olympics --- big game-changing gambles.  Realize I've likely lost you by now.  It's just that Tulsa was once a trend setter and now it's a "me too" and has been for 20-30 years.  We mimic other places and usually 5-10 years later.  On Utica Square --- it looks like it could use $3-5 million in deferred maintenance.  It's nice, but dozens of other centers/places around the country that play the same role in their cities are nicer.  Little unique about Utica Square anymore. I think a partnership with a national developer could be good to make it a mixed-use destination - if Helmerichs are tired of it, let the Bumgarners take it over.  As a place, we are not aggressive and there may be too few hands in the pot who can really affect change.   

Somebody with authority and/or bank account, should be knocking on doors of Disney or COMCAST CEOs and pitching Tulsa as a natural mid-country location for a 3rd Disney park --- maybe Route 66 theme or a Universal park.  There's a game changer.  If you like studies, commission one or buy an existing study showing where visitors to their existing parks come from --- is there a market for middle of country who may not be able to afford a week on either coast and only go to Disney or Universal once in a lifetime?  Couldn't be a Six Flags or similar regional park, would have to be Disney or Universal. Behind that, bring in corporations w/ quality of life perks.  Crazy? Maybe.  But my experience is Tulsa suffers from thinking too small, not from thinking too big.  Just an idea.     
           
« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 02:47:55 am by TulsaBeMore » Logged
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« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2020, 07:12:10 am »

"What is there to do here?"  Isn't that interesting that that comes up with companies. One side note that didn't get any attention but caught mine was something the Tesla people said when talking about the site in Austin was "It's right next to a trail system."   How is it that "unbusiness like", unfinancial, "fluff" things like that even rank a mention?   Of course the numbers have to work, but once that factor is addressed then it is "Quality of life, what is there to do here, is it a fun cool place where I can be happy (even if its illusion and  what is the perception of others)?" sort of things come into play.

The Gathering Place with its Childrens museum and the whitewater components will act as a solid quality of life component.

Downtown  is getting there (Hopefully the WPX building gets built as it will connect and anchor different districts) and the building up of different museums/attractions in the area will get us to a critical mass of "things to do" in that area.

Route 66 has the potential to be a fun quirky thing that can act as an anchor for multiple fun attractions/things to do.

Music/club scene for the young folk.... I am past that phase so not sure how that is in Tulsa these days lol. But it usually takes care of itself based on demand.

Restaurant scene is quite good, (keeping fingers crossed that things survive during this covid crisis)

Shopping (strolling down a street spending part of a day,( aka breakfast to lunch, or an evening, with friends, a date, your partner, out of town visitor...)  sucks in Tulsa. Woodland is getting sadder and sadder, Utica Square...rotting in place, Brookside & Cherry street are small and do not have a critical mass of shops. Downtown, nothing really and what there is terribly disconnected.  And we have no real arts shopping district ta boot.  And I have found that the "powers that be" with the city don't get the importance of this lifestyle factor, don't understand how it works, and or don't care enough to do anything about it.  The WPX building or the Santa Fe Square development could turn that around downtown if they get in the right mix of ground floor restaurant/retail.  Which is my main hope for the WPX building.


I answer that question repeatedly with a long 'laundry list'.  And there are a lot of things to do here - some similar to other areas, but for some reason I get TEGO.... their eyes glaze over.




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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I donít share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
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« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2020, 09:50:29 am »

I answer that question repeatedly with a long 'laundry list'.  And there are a lot of things to do here - some similar to other areas, but for some reason I get TEGO.... their eyes glaze over.

I feel like our outdoor recreation activities get overlooked compared to other southern/midwestern cities.  Places like Turkey Mountain for mtn biking, rock climbing in Chandler Park, hiking in the Keystone Ancient Forest, jogging and cycling along the miles of river trails, Gathering Place, big lakes all around the city not to mention the Ozarks only a couple hours to the east.  

The Arkansas River whitewater flume will be a cool amenity and if the new Zink Dam allows more boating (kayaking/SUP) on the lake behind it that will give us even more water recreation options.  Lake Bixhoma is already a great spot for this and a hidden gem in the Conjada Hills south of Bixby.  The Keystone Ancient Forest is another gem; Chandler Park has similar topographical features and a ton of land to expand to its west.  Iíve had people visit Tulsa and have remarked how many outdoor activities can be done in and around the city.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 10:01:37 am by SXSW » Logged

 
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« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2020, 12:50:09 pm »



AMEN!  All of it.  

One other question.  If not for the Chamber of Commerce, would we be Paris, TX?  The reason I ask is that the Tulsa Chamber gets best chamber in the nation awards on a seemingly regular basis.  Yet, in the last 10-15 years at least 20 major corporate headquarters or big regional offices have left here or been bought out and left.  If not for the Chamber,  would it be worse?  Or am I not understanding its role?  Is getting the "BEST" award the thing?  As I've put forward before , it seems like Tulsa does study after study after research project after research project and they just collect dust --- like the study is the thing not a result.  It's kind of like empathy.  Empathy from a politician without doing anything to improve constituents conditions is acting --- useless.  Frankly, we could also use some fire in the belly big money types --- thin-skinned, gaudy builders -  Jerry Jones types.  The people willing to do outlandish things --- like buy useless swampland in Florida to create Disney World (he'd be a billionaire today) in addition to our urbane, social equity, Ivy League wealthy who are as appreciated as it gets.  But is anyone willing to do what Atlanta did when it got the Olympics --- big game-changing gambles.  Realize I've likely lost you by now.  It's just that Tulsa was once a trend setter and now it's a "me too" and has been for 20-30 years.  We mimic other places and usually 5-10 years later.  On Utica Square --- it looks like it could use $3-5 million in deferred maintenance.  It's nice, but dozens of other centers/places around the country that play the same role in their cities are nicer.  Little unique about Utica Square anymore. I think a partnership with a national developer could be good to make it a mixed-use destination - if Helmerichs are tired of it, let the Bumgarners take it over.  As a place, we are not aggressive and there may be too few hands in the pot who can really affect change.  

Somebody with authority and/or bank account, should be knocking on doors of Disney or COMCAST CEOs and pitching Tulsa as a natural mid-country location for a 3rd Disney park --- maybe Route 66 theme or a Universal park.  There's a game changer.  If you like studies, commission one or buy an existing study showing where visitors to their existing parks come from --- is there a market for middle of country who may not be able to afford a week on either coast and only go to Disney or Universal once in a lifetime?  Couldn't be a Six Flags or similar regional park, would have to be Disney or Universal. Behind that, bring in corporations w/ quality of life perks.  Crazy? Maybe.  But my experience is Tulsa suffers from thinking too small, not from thinking too big.  Just an idea.    
            

Oh yes, I get so frustrated with the "me too" lets create a plan that will in  5 or 10 years see us where other cities are now... not willing to look at the fact that those cities will have themselves moved ahead 5 or 10 years... leaving us STILL 5 or 10 years (at least) behind.  We are constantly that way.  Constantly too afraid and weak politically to do what it would take to leapfrog us ahead. And they don't look at the trends of where things are going demographically, business wise, technology wise, generationally, etc. and do what it takes to be in a place to take advantage of those trends, or compete.  

One big thing we are going to have to contend with is demographics.  Current projections have most developed countries including the having slower and slower population growth and even seeing declines. (not helpful that we seem to be in a time where immigration which could save us from that decline, is itself being ever more cut off)  Not all cities in the US will lose population, but if over all the US is... that means the losers, will run the risk of reeeeally losing big.  That should scare some people into thinking we need to take drastic actions, especially with the way Tulsa has been losing population already, and the surrounding areas growth slowing (as we saw Tulsa do before it began losing, the downward trend is there) but you never hear our political class talking about it.  Do they think ignoring it or not talking about it is a good thing perhaps?  Don't want to scare anyone and get bad publicity?  But I think the worse danger of that is, that the average person/voter thinks things are ok on that front, and thus no changes need to be made to change that, let alone any big or difficult changes.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 01:02:08 pm by TheArtist » Logged

"When you only have two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other."-Chinese proverb. "Arts a staple. Like bread or wine or a warm coat in winter. Those who think it is a luxury have only a fragment of a mind. Mans spirit grows hungry for art in the same way h
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