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Author Topic: 11TH ST DEVELOPMENT  (Read 103747 times)
TheArtist
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« Reply #195 on: May 24, 2021, 08:40:47 am »

The above development, plus the big mixed use development on the NE corner of 11th and Lewis, will dramatically change the area.
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"When you only have two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other."-Chinese proverb. "Arts a staple. Like bread or wine or a warm coat in winter. Those who think it is a luxury have only a fragment of a mind. Mans spirit grows hungry for art in the same way h
DowntownDan
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« Reply #196 on: May 24, 2021, 09:15:56 am »

I'm like 90% sure the Route 66 museum has been cut out of this project too - anyone else heard anything similar? The newer rendering look amazing though, if they actually build it to what it looks like now it will be one of the nicest apartment projects in Tulsa design wise. Will make most of the ARG projects in downtown look like cheap ****.

The above project will start a 'masterplan' for streetscape along 11th Street. Similar to what was done with Guthrie Green, where it set streetscaping standards for the Arts District and as projects were completed they adopted those standards. Unfortunately I don't think it will be done in large portions anytime soon.

The road diet that was done was critical to the area though and is at least slowing traffic down. Even if some idiots don't understand that the bike lines are not parking or loading areas. It's far far better than what was there. You don't build or make bike lines with the assumption that right away there will be thousands of bikers. They are slowing building around a vast network around the core that in years down the road will actually make the city more livable and offer people who live in these areas alternatives to driving. Cities like Portland didn't become a bike city overnight, they built out the infrastructure for it and people adopted that lifestyle because they had the option to do so. The same hopefully will happen here when they've been able to do more road diets. Slowing cars done is actually vital to making businesses along this corridor more successful. Having a car drive 25 mph by your building is 20x better than 40mph, it increases visibility and makes the area seem safer and 'busier' which are beneficial to retail businesses.

Maybe something as simple as large planters could help a lot and be a temporary fix especially for the part between Hillcrest and Peoria until better streetscaping can be done. Here's an example of planters used: https://www.universitycity.org/streetscapeimprovements

That was the biggest failure of the Cherry Street rebuild is there were not permanent planter beds or vegetation added anywhere - just adding flowers and native grasses that are low maintenance in the bump out areas would have made a huge difference in making the street feel a lot better. This would be easy to implement on 11th Street now in just planter boxes for example in many areas that could be made permanent down the road. 
 

Are there renderings newer than the ones posted above? If so, where might I find them?
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tulsabug
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« Reply #197 on: May 24, 2021, 09:43:22 am »

The road diet that was done was critical to the area though and is at least slowing traffic down. Even if some idiots don't understand that the bike lines are not parking or loading areas. It's far far better than what was there. You don't build or make bike lines with the assumption that right away there will be thousands of bikers. They are slowing building around a vast network around the core that in years down the road will actually make the city more livable and offer people who live in these areas alternatives to driving. Cities like Portland didn't become a bike city overnight, they built out the infrastructure for it and people adopted that lifestyle because they had the option to do so. The same hopefully will happen here when they've been able to do more road diets. Slowing cars done is actually vital to making businesses along this corridor more successful. Having a car drive 25 mph by your building is 20x better than 40mph, it increases visibility and makes the area seem safer and 'busier' which are beneficial to retail businesses. 

There is a big difference between slowing traffic down and traffic congestion which increases pollution and drives people away from an area. And that being said what 11th is now is people speeding from one backup at an intersection to another - I see that all day until rush hour hits where it then turns into silly backups at most intersections. 11th is used by a lot of downtown workers to get to 244 I assume to avoid the IDL downtown so when they all head home the Yale intersection turns into a cluster. We're three blocks down from 11th and Yale and every weekday the traffic will backup sometimes six blocks down from the intersection. Because of there not being a right-hand turning lane at the intersection any longer people have a choice of waiting and waiting and waiting or avoiding the light by turning down Winston and hitting Yale from 12th. This is causing undue traffic in the neighborhoods where there are a lot of people who like to walk, and since there are no sidewalks they now get to avoid an increase of cars in the street.

I'm all for the road diet on 11th but just painting some lines and saying "ta-da - we have bike lanes" is not the right way to do it and other cities, like Portland and New York have figured this out. You are not going to make Tulsa into a bicycling Mecca unless you make the bike lanes safe and what the city has wasted money on so far is the exact opposite - it's almost designed to fail. I mean, I really don't expect any less from the city but it just seems like the bike lanes they put in were nothing more than lip-service to the road diet crowd to shut them up.

As far as cars slowing down being beneficial to business - I totally agree BUT without easy access to a business (ie - a turning lane) you aren't going to get great results. And why not lower the speed limit on the street? Seems like a no-brainer and one they did on 15th.

Again, I'm on your side on this but I don't think it was done right, isn't going to get the desired results because of that, and has created new problems that aren't being addressed.


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« Reply #198 on: May 24, 2021, 04:12:02 pm »

The above development, plus the big mixed use development on the NE corner of 11th and Lewis, will dramatically change the area.

Ooh, what development is this?  Do tell.  I have not heard anything about any development on the northeast side of the intersection. 
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« Reply #199 on: May 24, 2021, 05:56:22 pm »

Ooh, what development is this?  Do tell.  I have not heard anything about any development on the northeast side of the intersection. 

I’m interested in this too.  That would be quite the transformation for this area and a catalyst for further infill toward TU and filling in the gaps between Utica and Lewis
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Tulsan
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« Reply #200 on: May 24, 2021, 07:00:37 pm »

Ooh, what development is this?  Do tell.  I have not heard anything about any development on the northeast side of the intersection. 

The old Hawk Dairy has been bought by Ferguson Property Group. Same developer that will be doing the Lobeck Taylor apartment complex across Lewis.

The historic dairy will be retail/restaurant on first floor with apartments above. There will be new construction attached to the north and east of the dairy building. Total will be 85 market-rate apartments. Supposed to start in late fall of this year and take 12 months. I haven’t yet seen renderings but hearing good things.

The car lot on the corner of the intersection and Perry’s meat market remain in private hands. The owners will not sell. So Ferguson is moving forward without them.
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« Reply #201 on: May 24, 2021, 07:29:23 pm »

The car lot on the corner of the intersection and Perry’s meat market remain in private hands. The owners will not sell. So Ferguson is moving forward without them.

It would be a shame if Perry's Meat Market went away for apartments.  It's a bit far for me at 111th S and Memorial but I occasionally get to their other location at 81st & Sheridan.
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Tulsan
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« Reply #202 on: May 24, 2021, 07:52:44 pm »

It would be a shame if Perry's Meat Market went away for apartments.  It's a bit far for me at 111th S and Memorial but I occasionally get to their other location at 81st & Sheridan.

I think they would have gotten favorable rent in the new retail space... but I understand not wanting to move.  (Have you been to this location recently? It’s ... not high end.) I was more surprised the KC Motorsports lot owners didn’t sell, but apparently they get decent income from the current operation. Still, you’d think if the price was right they’d sell. Price must not have been right.
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Red Arrow
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« Reply #203 on: May 24, 2021, 08:38:21 pm »

I think they would have gotten favorable rent in the new retail space... but I understand not wanting to move.  (Have you been to this location recently? It’s ... not high end.) I was more surprised the KC Motorsports lot owners didn’t sell, but apparently they get decent income from the current operation. Still, you’d think if the price was right they’d sell. Price must not have been right.
No, I have not been there recently.
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TulsaBeMore
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« Reply #204 on: May 25, 2021, 01:36:01 am »

How do you post photos/renderings here?
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SXSW
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« Reply #205 on: May 25, 2021, 06:10:06 am »

I think they would have gotten favorable rent in the new retail space... but I understand not wanting to move.  (Have you been to this location recently? It’s ... not high end.) I was more surprised the KC Motorsports lot owners didn’t sell, but apparently they get decent income from the current operation. Still, you’d think if the price was right they’d sell. Price must not have been right.

Likely waiting until they redevelop the Hawk Dairy and build the apartments across the street then can get a lot more $$$.  This could be a cool spot for a beer garden if someone wanted to repurpose the building and do something like what Elliot Nelson has done at 1st & Elgin with the trees and outdoor seating.

Then you just need Lobeck Taylor or someone else to redevelop Advance Auto Parts on the SE corner which would tie into their retail development directly to the south.  Critical mass in an area that 5 years ago was a desolate wasteland.
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TheArtist
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« Reply #206 on: May 25, 2021, 06:53:23 am »

Ooh, what development is this?  Do tell.  I have not heard anything about any development on the northeast side of the intersection. 

Sorry I deleted the email that had the renderings lol.  If I recall correctly it looked like there were one or two 5 story buildings to the east of the Hawk Dairy building along 11th street, and one to the north on Lewis.  Possible retail on the ground floor and living above.
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"When you only have two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other."-Chinese proverb. "Arts a staple. Like bread or wine or a warm coat in winter. Those who think it is a luxury have only a fragment of a mind. Mans spirit grows hungry for art in the same way h
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« Reply #207 on: May 25, 2021, 02:03:04 pm »

Are there renderings newer than the ones posted above? If so, where might I find them?

None that I can share right now - I haven't seen the newer ones floating around anywhere else yet. It looks nice though, more brick and has more of a loft style look. It looks a lot like this project in Dallas: https://www.noveldeepellum.com/gallery

There is a big difference between slowing traffic down and traffic congestion which increases pollution and drives people away from an area. And that being said what 11th is now is people speeding from one backup at an intersection to another - I see that all day until rush hour hits where it then turns into silly backups at most intersections. 11th is used by a lot of downtown workers to get to 244 I assume to avoid the IDL downtown so when they all head home the Yale intersection turns into a cluster. We're three blocks down from 11th and Yale and every weekday the traffic will backup sometimes six blocks down from the intersection. Because of there not being a right-hand turning lane at the intersection any longer people have a choice of waiting and waiting and waiting or avoiding the light by turning down Winston and hitting Yale from 12th. This is causing undue traffic in the neighborhoods where there are a lot of people who like to walk, and since there are no sidewalks they now get to avoid an increase of cars in the street.

I'm all for the road diet on 11th but just painting some lines and saying "ta-da - we have bike lanes" is not the right way to do it and other cities, like Portland and New York have figured this out. You are not going to make Tulsa into a bicycling Mecca unless you make the bike lanes safe and what the city has wasted money on so far is the exact opposite - it's almost designed to fail. I mean, I really don't expect any less from the city but it just seems like the bike lanes they put in were nothing more than lip-service to the road diet crowd to shut them up.

As far as cars slowing down being beneficial to business - I totally agree BUT without easy access to a business (ie - a turning lane) you aren't going to get great results. And why not lower the speed limit on the street? Seems like a no-brainer and one they did on 15th.

Again, I'm on your side on this but I don't think it was done right, isn't going to get the desired results because of that, and has created new problems that aren't being addressed.


Frankly I've never seen a single example of where congestion drives people away. If that was the case Austin (especially areas like SoCo, Rainey Street, 6th, etc.) NYC, DC, LA, etc. would be vast wastelands by now. Every successful commercial corridor has congestion, it's just the reality of it. When a commercial area has no traffic congestion, it's usually a very bad sign. I'm also not sure why anyone would use 11th street to get out of downtown to avoid I-244, there is zero congestion on 244 out of downtown or on the streets downtown to get to 244 via Cincinnati or Detroit. Maybe you are seeing the effects of people leaving Hillcrest and other businesses?

Now, I agree the road diets completed need to be upgraded eventually. Something as simple as planter boxes that help separate the bike lanes and make them safer could be easy fixes but would likely have to be done by the businesses along the corridor themselves at the moment. The city doesn't have a lot of money to play with right now for upgrading the bike lanes to full separation yet. It will likely have to wait for the next bond issue for them to set aside money to make some of these road diets more permanent and safer. What they've done so far is still 100x better than having it stay as a 4 lane road that was unnecessary for the amount of traffic 11th and others handle. We can't design cities around the fact that someone might have to wait 1 or 2 cycles of a light at a particular intersection during rush hour. That's what we've done before and that's one of the reasons why many of these urban corridors died, we made it too easy for people to blow right past businesses which in turn creates an unpleasant environment for people. The unnecessary fear of 'congestion' and building roads in the urban core to 'fix' that problems ends up resulting in businesses moving to the suburbs anyways because when you design the urban core to make it easy to escape everyone eventually will and has. Adding turn lanes at specific intersections might be needed at some point but in general they are a complete waste of space outside of being on signaled intersections. That space would be better used for on street parking or expanded sidewalks. 

The problem with speed limit reductions is people don't pay attention to them and they drive as fast as the road allows them to feel safe - Cherry Street tried that too and failed a long time ago. Narrower roads make people drive slower, bigger lanes make people think it's a freeway - Cherry Street really started to change when they added more parking and narrowed the lanes just with paint years ago and that was when traffic began to slow down and it became less dangerous. Then finally years and years later it moved along to the recent improvements which are more permeant. Brookside is another good example, traffic moves much slower between 33rd to 35th than between 41st and 36th - has nothing to do with anything other than the width of the lanes - they shrink dramatically and people don't feel like they can drive 40 mph anymore and that's a good thing for that particular area.

Just keep in mind that the road diets being done are mostly in a temporary format, most of the planning documents state for various improvements to be made but it's better to start doing it then just leave it however it was, and then work to make incremental improvements with better barriers, landscaping, etc. down the line as funding is available. Portland and NYC started much of their bike infrastructure the same way Tulsa is doing now, with just some paint. They are decades ahead of us and now in general when they expand biking infrastructure it's usually not just paint it's full on separated lanes, etc. and they have gone back and improved corridors that were temporary to begin with to improve them. Someday Tulsa will get there (hopefully) but everyone has to start somewhere. It is much easier to make a 'temporary' solution like repainting the street permanent than it is to take say the old format and go from it directly into permanent (this is well documented in planning circles too and why the city is taking this route - it creates far less NIMBY issues). This does actually allow the planning department to observe too what works and what might not before you invest the money into full upgrades to the corridors.
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Tulsan
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« Reply #208 on: May 26, 2021, 09:35:13 am »


I'm all for the road diet on 11th but just painting some lines and saying "ta-da - we have bike lanes" is not the right way to do it and other cities, like Portland and New York have figured this out. You are not going to make Tulsa into a bicycling Mecca unless you make the bike lanes safe and what the city has wasted money on so far is the exact opposite - it's almost designed to fail. I mean, I really don't expect any less from the city but it just seems like the bike lanes they put in were nothing more than lip-service to the road diet crowd to shut them up.


The 11th St. re-stripes were funded by INCOG as part of the GO plan. There’s an 11th St. TIF that will fund new pedestrian improvements and its being prefunded by Lobeck Taylor. “Market District” sidewalk replacement/enhancement should be starting soon. In addition, the Improve Out Tulsa bonds are funding rebuild of 11th almost the entire street over the next few years.

My point is... there are a lot of resources lined up for Rte 66. There’s a chance to really get it right.
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« Reply #209 on: May 26, 2021, 09:44:09 am »

The 11th St. re-stripes were funded by INCOG as part of the GO plan. There’s an 11th St. TIF that will fund new pedestrian improvements and its being prefunded by Lobeck Taylor. “Market District” sidewalk replacement/enhancement should be starting soon. In addition, the Improve Out Tulsa bonds are funding rebuild of 11th almost the entire street over the next few years.

My point is... there are a lot of resources lined up for Rte 66. There’s a chance to really get it right.

I didn't realize Improve Our Tulsa had an 11th Street rebuild in it. Any idea if that will incorporate the new streetscaping plans being implemented by that TIF. My understanding was they would only be prefunding the portion around that intersection - any additional streetscaping would come as money is collected from the TIF, so it'd likely be several years down the road before any TIF money would be available to be spent along the rest of the corridor. It's really one of the more bizarre TIF's I've seen created. I'm not sure why they didn't just make the TIF capture area for the entire portion of the spending zone that was created which is usually how it's done.

Would make little sense for the Improve Our Tulsa funds to rebuild the street and just repaint everything then a few years later come back and redo it again with streetscaping. Hopefully they can figure out a way to get most of it done at the same time to make better efficiency of the funds.
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