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Author Topic: PAC Trust selects developer  (Read 21872 times)
cannon_fodder
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« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2015, 02:14:54 pm »

Here's a multi-story Target in downtown Minneapolis.  It has escalators for carts that run parallel to the escalators for people.
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9750582,-93.2738054,3a,75y,237.27h,97.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1su7UbAVMWZeTTKhwconOy1A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

That area of Minneapolis is a density and foot traffic level that few cities in the US have dreamed of. It is blocks from a MLB team, an NBA team, an NFL team and a light rail system that goes to an NHL team as well as 60,000 college kids. Hell, four blocks from there they built a multi story parking garage over the interstate. Great goal, no where near reality outside of ~10 cities in the United States.

Incidentally, the baseball team plays at Target Field, the NBA team plays at the Target Center, and the multi floor store is a flagship Target that sits one block away from the Target Credit Union, which is just off of Target Plaza, which happens to be where the Target Building is. The headquarters of... Target.

My guess is the multistory store doesn't even make financial sense there, rather it is a prestige store.
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« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2015, 02:37:06 pm »

Actually, I've always thought that Minneapolis is the city that Tulsa could aspire to be if we ever decide to grow up.  Chicago, New York, and San Francisco are obviously out of our league.  Portland, OR could be within our reach if enough old people here die and enough young people stay.  But even then, we're not progressive enough or far-sighted enough to be Portland.

Minneapolis, however, is a nice little city with way too much parking downtown that still manages to be super cool, runs a great transit system, and is (re)building density in its downtown area.  Salt Lake City is another place that's within reach.  What both cities seem to have that we lack is a respect for urban planning and an understanding of the importance of transit.  These are basically the biggest keys to revitalization and economic sustainability that we lack.
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swake
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« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2015, 04:55:42 pm »

Here's a multi-story Target in downtown Minneapolis.  It has escalators for carts that run parallel to the escalators for people.
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9750582,-93.2738054,3a,75y,237.27h,97.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1su7UbAVMWZeTTKhwconOy1A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

I've also been to a Safeway in Portland, Oregon that had elevators.  But I think you just used the elevators to access the below-ground parking lot.  Can't remember if the retail part of the store had a second floor or not.

I've been to several urban Walgreen's that were two stories tall in cities throughout the country.  Can't remember exactly where.  Miami and New York City, for sure, but I can't remember where else I've seen them.

Downtown Chicago has them too. Ground level is your standard Walgreens with food and liquor in the basement.
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rdj
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« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2015, 06:54:23 pm »

Actually, I've always thought that Minneapolis is the city that Tulsa could aspire to be if we ever decide to grow up.  Chicago, New York, and San Francisco are obviously out of our league.  Portland, OR could be within our reach if enough old people here die and enough young people stay.  But even then, we're not progressive enough or far-sighted enough to be Portland.

Minneapolis, however, is a nice little city with way too much parking downtown that still manages to be super cool, runs a great transit system, and is (re)building density in its downtown area.  Salt Lake City is another place that's within reach.  What both cities seem to have that we lack is a respect for urban planning and an understanding of the importance of transit.  These are basically the biggest keys to revitalization and economic sustainability that we lack.

The last few years I've thought it would great to see OKC & Tulsa become "sister cities" like Minneapolis & St Paul.  Make the Turner a free highway, add high speed rail and build a destination in between the two downtowns.
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« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2015, 08:42:55 pm »

That makes too much sense for both cities. Unfortunately I have it on pretty good authority that the movers and shakers in OKC have directed their attention south to DFW.
 
The last few years I've thought it would great to see OKC & Tulsa become "sister cities" like Minneapolis & St Paul.  Make the Turner a free highway, add high speed rail and build a destination in between the two downtowns.
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« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2015, 06:53:21 am »

That makes too much sense for both cities. Unfortunately I have it on pretty good authority that the movers and shakers in OKC have directed their attention south to DFW.
 

Thats what I would do if I were them.
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« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2015, 07:29:12 am »

The last few years I've thought it would great to see OKC & Tulsa become "sister cities" like Minneapolis & St Paul.  Make the Turner a free highway, add high speed rail and build a destination in between the two downtowns.

Yes. To compete with larger cities, we could combine functional populations. Some big (and unlikely) ideas to do that:

  • Build one airport midway between the cities that is accessible by car, bus, and rail.
  • Support alternative transit between the cities - rail and bus service [obligatory shoutout to our startup www.motherroadtravel.com that is attempting to do this]
  • Encourage driverless car development to make the cost of commuting or going to events/games across the Turnpike lower
  • Pie in the sky efforts like hyperloop make connection even shorter

If you buy the "2050: Mega Region" concept, Tulsa and OKC will both be on the outskirts of the Texas mega region. If so, developing connections to Dallas will be even more important than Tulsa-OKC. And things like the hyperloop or other commuter options that go significantly faster than 100 mph will be necessary or we will end up the equivalent of a small town that was bypassed by the interstate highway system.

One cautionary note though, Tulsa and OKC are much further apart than Minneapolis - St. Paul. I think Baltimore - DC is closer to the distance we are.
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« Reply #37 on: October 16, 2015, 07:45:21 am »

Not only are Minneapolis and St.Paul merely divided by a river, Tulsa and OKC are really different personalities. That is dictated by our different geographies and labor populations. To put it graphically, they are flat, red dirt, we are hilly, green country. They also are part of a growing chain of cities that spread south towards Dallas meaning the entire southern part of the state is served by OKC and Dallas via the I-35 and I-40 corridors. We do not serve that same function in any direction. The only thing we share with OKC is the extreme red politics and the money making Turner Turnpike.

We are on our own.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2015, 08:38:24 am »

I agree that Tulsa should strive to be Minneapolis, that is a great city. I've spent a lot of time there, have family there, and still visit at least once a year. I think we could do it, but it would be a very long term project. Probably two generations out if we went all in - which we will not. So here's my rant...

While the City itself is only slightly larger than Tulsa, Minneapolis is the hub of a metro area that is 3.8 million people. We would need every citizen of Oklahoma to move within 40 miles of Tulsa to compete with their size. Denver, Cleveland, Detroit are in their neighborhood. Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Orlando, Portland are a significant step behind Minneapolis metro for size. Tulsa is a couple of steps behind those cities.

Minneapolis itself has a density of 7300 people per square mile - more than three times Tulsa's density. The city of 400,000 people is in 58 square miles. Tulsa takes up nearly 200 square miles.  Minneapolis is much closer in land area to Skiatook (17 square miles) than to Tulsa. It is actually reasonably close to Broken Arrow in land area.

It has an educational profile we couldn't dream of. They don't have many elements of their society actively fighting against education, denying science, and working towards a theocracy. Just down the rail there are 60,000 college students and most of them stay in the metro area. That attracts employers who need educated workers. This, of course, leads to an income level we don't have.  It also leads to an appreciate for the arts and science that many of our citizens don't have.

They have a legislature that isn't full of idiots. Even Jesse Ventura was a better electoral pick than we have made. They have long term plans and carry them out. Almost like making decisions for whats best for the most citizens was important. Great regional mass transit. One regional airport directly between the two cities. Growing educational opportunities. Good infrastructure (hey! That interstate collapse was Federal!). Simple alcohol laws Smiley

They also don't have many natural resources (iron range up north, some farming down south). That is very good for most economies as it makes the residents themselves the best commodity and leads to a premium value on education and entrepreneurship. In most instances, those commodities pay off better in the long run than oil in the ground or gold in the hills. (generally, that trend holds nationally too. It is why the  Netherlands, Japan, and Taiwan are rich with few natural resources and Nigeria, Venezuela, and South Africa are generally poor even though loaded with resources)

It is all of these things that allows every professional sports franchise to operate (they added an MLS announcement, they literally have every major league franchise you can have. I'm not a pro sports guy, but it is a sign of a "major" city). That allows home grown companies to thrive. That allows progressive policies to take root and build a great city.

My ambitions for Tulsa is much more reserved. I'm afraid our population as a whole will never embrace education. Our government will always be a reflection of under-educated people. Our population density for the entire city will never reach 7k per square mile (we would be the 5th largest City in the country if we did, overtaking Philadelphia). A large scale mass transit is unlikely. OKC is too far away to be a true sister City (Chicago is closer to Milwaukee, Orlando and Tampa, Baltimore to DC is only 40 miles) unless we did something astounding (~200+ mph high speed rail).



My ambition for Tulsa is to continue to build the core of our City into a dense, urban environment. The development community and many in south Tulsa want Tulsa to be the best Jenks we can be... but Tulsa has no competitive advantage if we compete in suburban development. We can't offer cheap half acre lots like Collinsville, we can't continue to offer sparkling new chain stores like Owasso, and we can't offer endless cookie cutter subdivisions like Broken Arrow. Tulsa loses that fight.

And if we fight that fight, no one from any of those towns would bother coming to Tulsa for anything. Why locate a business in Tulsa, why move here, why drive to Tulsa if we offer the same crap everyone else offers.

Tulsa's competitive advantage is density. It is in an urban environment. Focus on supporting and growing that and we enhance our competitive advantage. And that includes public transit. It includes building codes. But for long term sustained urban growth it also includes education and economics - that's where doubt comes in.

We have made a dang good start since I've been here (2003), and that start now appears to be a self fueling fire. More announcements. More development. More density. More demand. I bring people from all over the country (and world) to Tulsa for visits for a variety of reasons - and if I try to show them the urban side of Tulsa they leave impressed. If all they see is south Tulsa, they like the City just fine... .but it is any town USA.

It really doesn't take much area to make an urban space seem special. The French Quarter isn't that big. Downtown Minneapolis isn't that big. Downtown Austin isn't that big. If our existing downtown areas continue to grow, we have something very nice. If we connect those areas to Brookside, Cherry Street, the Pearl, etc... it could be amazing.

I think we are on the way. The next step is transportation and zoning changes.

For transit - make a system that is practical. The goal should be to make some areas practical to live in car free and to make most areas possible for one car families. Rail is really cool and can lead to amazing economic development... but buses are far cheaper. As a start we should commit to high frequency buses on certain routes. THEN discuss urban rail when those are successful.

The zoning changes have been well articulated on here by DS Jeffries. Kill or reduce parking requirements (at least in certain areas). Encourage form based codes. Discourage suburban development in urban areas. Stop giving in to every "fire code" demand. Consider exceptions, exemptions, and rezoning requests in the context of the long term plan.

Bah! I've rambled enough. Sorry... I don't think Tulsa will be Minneapolis in the near future, probably ever. And I'm fine with that. But I think we can continue to improve what makes us unique and use that as a competitive advantage moving forward. We have assets many places gave up long ago or never had. Lets use them.
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swake
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« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2015, 01:33:02 pm »

Yes. To compete with larger cities, we could combine functional populations. Some big (and unlikely) ideas to do that:

  • Build one airport midway between the cities that is accessible by car, bus, and rail.
  • Support alternative transit between the cities - rail and bus service [obligatory shoutout to our startup www.motherroadtravel.com that is attempting to do this]
  • Encourage driverless car development to make the cost of commuting or going to events/games across the Turnpike lower
  • Pie in the sky efforts like hyperloop make connection even shorter

If you buy the "2050: Mega Region" concept, Tulsa and OKC will both be on the outskirts of the Texas mega region. If so, developing connections to Dallas will be even more important than Tulsa-OKC. And things like the hyperloop or other commuter options that go significantly faster than 100 mph will be necessary or we will end up the equivalent of a small town that was bypassed by the interstate highway system.

One cautionary note though, Tulsa and OKC are much further apart than Minneapolis - St. Paul. I think Baltimore - DC is closer to the distance we are.

No, Baltimore and DC are not only much larger but much closer, the cities are only 38 miles apart, they are more like Tulsa to Claremore than OKC.
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carltonplace
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« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2015, 08:02:35 am »


GreenArch changed developers and architects IIRC.
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« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2015, 03:32:21 pm »

This site has one of my favorite skyline views.  I always wanted it to be a park like Guthrie Green before they built Guthrie Green, but a good mixed-use development would work.  Hopefully as the design is finalized a few things get ironed out:
1. Parking - it looks like all of the parking is in the above grade garage below the apartments?  Hopefully that still allows for some retail space along 2nd Street, with entry and exit from the garage on Cincinnati/Detroit.  Does that include the PAC parking, or maybe that could be one level underground?
2. Reasor's - if they indeed are the tenant that would be fantastic.  Hopefully lots of glass along 3rd Street with a coffee shop and deli area with outdoor seating at the Cincinnati corner.  Maybe they could do a green roof and actually grow something they sell, that would be pretty slick.
3. Apartment - hopefully it looks like rendering and at least stays in the 8 story range, or even taller.  

Oh yeah and ditch the skyway bridge!
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johrasephoenix
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« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2016, 03:35:23 pm »

Is there an update on this project?
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swake
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« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2016, 03:54:04 pm »

There was this story from late January:
 

http://www.newson6.com/story/31059564/development-plans-advance-for-downtown-tulsa-parking-lot
Quote
TULSA, Oklahoma - Five months after News On 6 first told you about development plans for the downtown parking lot near City Hall. Now progress is being made toward a final plan.

The Tulsa Performing Arts Center Trust met Monday to discuss updates on the two-acre parking lot near Second and Cincinnati.

For months, the Trust has been in negotiations with Indianapolis-based Flaherty and Collins.

10/9/2015 Related Story: PAC Trustees, Developer Continue Talks To Transform Downtown Parking Lot

That firm envisions up to 12 stories of apartments, a 35,000 square-foot Reasor's grocery store plus parking and civic space solely for use by the PAC.

The Trust says there could be a vote on the project as soon as the next scheduled meeting in March.
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davideinstein
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« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2016, 04:56:36 pm »

Actually, I've always thought that Minneapolis is the city that Tulsa could aspire to be if we ever decide to grow up.  Chicago, New York, and San Francisco are obviously out of our league.  Portland, OR could be within our reach if enough old people here die and enough young people stay.  But even then, we're not progressive enough or far-sighted enough to be Portland.

Minneapolis, however, is a nice little city with way too much parking downtown that still manages to be super cool, runs a great transit system, and is (re)building density in its downtown area.  Salt Lake City is another place that's within reach.  What both cities seem to have that we lack is a respect for urban planning and an understanding of the importance of transit.  These are basically the biggest keys to revitalization and economic sustainability that we lack.

Kansas City is what we should follow...
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