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AquaMan
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« Reply #225 on: November 01, 2016, 07:40:53 pm »

Its important to note that because if you identify them as "homeless", the solutions tend to center around finding structures for them when that is not their real need. We tend to think they want what we want, good homes, good jobs, family and respect. Maybe, but first they want to get high, get normal, get a buzz.

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onward...through the fog
Conan71
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« Reply #226 on: November 02, 2016, 08:02:46 am »

The ones that gather near Elwoods don't seem to be a problem, except that they sometimes seem to occupy the park area there and that (to me) seems to intrude too much on children's use of that space.   Where I had issues was more up between the bridge and about 15th.  Haven't been through there in 2-3 weeks, but was consistently a hassle for a while in that area.



Concern raised and addressed:  RPA is more than aware of the issue and they’ve reached out to various channels for help:  The shelters can’t do anything to discourage this.  RPA's patrol is seasonal and they do not have the ability to arrest anyone for public drunk, assault, etc.  TPD doesn’t want to deal with it because all that happens is they get a “slimy drunk” in their car who spits, pees, or worse in the patrol unit.  They take the time to book them and the offender is back out the next day and fines never get paid so it is a low priority crime in their view.  RPA has stepped up and paid for additional police patrol to enforce the park curfew but that’s as far as it goes.

Essentially, everyone seems to be aware there is a problem.  Does the problem warrant much more police presence to keep activity in River Parks to a minimum?  Apparently not at this point.  Like it or not, these people do have a right to be in the park even if they have no clue nor care they are dampening the experience for other park users and making passage on the trails potentially hazardous at times.  So long as they are not assaulting others, it will get a limited response due to limited resources and limited remedies.

There is a real concern with RPA’s management and they are frustrated there are limited options.  The hope is this is cyclical and with cold weather approaching the wanderers will move on.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #227 on: November 02, 2016, 12:17:07 pm »


I did not say "enjoy".  Don't go all Trumpy on me!

Given all the other components of their situation, that is where those two guys chose to be at that moment in time.  Maybe the weather was pleasant, maybe the panhandling was better due to all the tourists.  I didn't dig that deep into their situation.  They could have been elsewhere - the troll is where they chose to be.  One of them had a bicycle, so he was definitely more mobile of the two.


You said :
Quote
"They just chose to be where they were, even though they seemed to imply they could have had a more 'conventional' roof than a bridge if they had chosen to.  As it was early summer and very pleasant weather, I could see the attraction to "camping out"....being outdoors while the weather is good."
That suggests that they enjoy their life being homeless and "chose" to live like that.

You are the one getting Trumpy with baseless attacks and refusal to answer the question I asked you:
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heironymous, Can you explain why Tulsa is held to a much much higher standard than Portland or Seattle? Them  being among the worst places for homelessness in the US is good according to you whereas Tulsa's ranking near the top in the US in fewest homeless is a complete failure.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #228 on: November 02, 2016, 01:07:25 pm »

You said :That suggests that they enjoy their life being homeless and "chose" to live like that.

You are the one getting Trumpy with baseless attacks and refusal to answer the question I asked you:


How can you possibly equate a choice to enjoyment in that kind of situation?  It is like our current election - if one is going to vote, then one must make a choice.  For the vast majority that I have talked to, none "enjoy" it.  All to often choices are not made from enjoyment but from lessor of two evils standpoint.


Baseless attacks...?  Other than a quick little Trump poke, how were you attacked?  If you are that thin-skinned, I kinda feel for you in all your future dealings in life....

As for an answer to your question - I gotta ask you why should Tulsa NOT be held to a higher standard??   Your question alone implies abdication to the idea the those two places are inherently 'better' than Tulsa to start with.  I also submit that while it is good to keep an eye on others around us (like Portland and Seattle), we should strive to be the best that we can be and ALWAYS be working toward improving that!!  NO MATTER how far behind OR ahead of others we may be!

And there is your "Trumpy-ness" again - putting words into my mouth that I did not say - "Tulsa's ranking near the top in the US in fewest homeless is a complete failure."   Ya really owe it to yourself to step away from the Faux News once in a while.....


Still looking for that first quote of yours...can't find it.  The one saying I said they enjoy homeless living....  Got a post number?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 01:11:08 pm by heironymouspasparagus » Logged

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dbacksfan 2.0
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« Reply #229 on: November 02, 2016, 01:35:46 pm »

You are really glamorizing the terrible homelessness issue in those places. I would much rather be homeless here than in Portland or Vancouver. In Tulsa, there's no shortage of shelters if you're willing to give up alcohol and drugs and live by the rules. There's an abundance of places to get free food. Homeless around here are not in want of food. Ever try giving food to a homeless person here? I have been met with negative reactions just about every time I've offered to give or buy food (but typically just "no thanks, I need a bus ticket"...).

Also, as I said, most homeless people would accept free housing if offered, especially without requirements to quit drugs/alcohol. Some are freebirds for life  but most would rather at least have a place inside.

I'm not trying to glamorize anything. The reason for the high number of homeless is that other than throwing free stuff to them, no one tries to actually help them. They have no reason to leave or try because they don't have to do anything. The cities let them camp anywhere. Tell you what, we'll send you some of this for the Williams Center Green



and this for a better use of the surface parking



http://www.oregonlive.com/portland-homeless/
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Conan71
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« Reply #230 on: November 02, 2016, 02:00:05 pm »

I'm not trying to glamorize anything. The reason for the high number of homeless is that other than throwing free stuff to them, no one tries to actually help them. They have no reason to leave or try because they don't have to do anything. The cities let them camp anywhere. Tell you what, we'll send you some of this for the Williams Center Green



and this for a better use of the surface parking



http://www.oregonlive.com/portland-homeless/

See, these people are not “homeless” they are “urban campers”.   Cheesy
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dbacksfan 2.0
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« Reply #231 on: November 02, 2016, 02:22:06 pm »

See, these people are not “homeless” they are “urban campers”.   Cheesy


Yeah, the people that couldn't afford the upgrade to live on the river.

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cynical
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« Reply #232 on: November 02, 2016, 02:24:13 pm »

As recently as last summer, I've walked in the old Portland Chinatown district shown in the lower picture. The Chinese Garden around the corner is quite nice. Homelessness there is not as orderly as the picture implies. There are people sleeping in the sidewalks all over the district. If you visit that area it's difficult to not get close to the problem, though I was never accosted by any of them.

The problem in that specific area of Portland appears to mainly involve addiction. Anyone who has had experience in that area will tell you that treatment requires intense one-on-one engagement with the patient. No city, Portland included, has anything like the resources to deal with this problem the way it has to be dealt with. The best they can do is to mitigate the damage - providing an infrastructure of relatively a relatively safe habitat, access to adequate food and clothing, and things like needle exchanges. Iron Gate is part of that kind of approach. It helps them stay alive but doesn't provide any exit from the lifestyle, if you want to call it that.

I also saw homeless encampments other places in Portland. There's a park along the Willamette River where tents are set up under the bridges and you see tents in the freeway rights of way. Unlike what is being reported about the River Parks in this discussion, there doesn't seem to be any particularly negative interaction between joggers, pedestrians, and the homeless there. But the sheer scale of the problem there is amazing.

Portland has a number of ongoing programs to assist the homeless in finding permanent housing. For a summary, visit this page from the city's web site: https://www.portlandoregon.gov/phb/60643. One detail of interest: Portland estimates its homeless population at 4,000 per night. Tulsa's was estimated at 6,000 to 7,000 "per year," whatever that means. http://www.newson6.com/story/32117092/tulsa-shelters-overflowing-as-homeless-numbers-grow. This may be an apples and oranges comparison because of the differing time periods reported. But considering that the Portland metro area is about 2.5 times larger than Tulsa's, it doesn't seem that its homelessness problem is as bad as ours. It is more visible, though.

I doubt that life would be better for anyone if the homeless had to hide.

I'm not trying to glamorize anything. The reason for the high number of homeless is that other than throwing free stuff to them, no one tries to actually help them. They have no reason to leave or try because they don't have to do anything. The cities let them camp anywhere. Tell you what, we'll send you some of this for the Williams Center Green



and this for a better use of the surface parking



http://www.oregonlive.com/portland-homeless/
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #233 on: November 02, 2016, 03:03:45 pm »


How can you possibly equate a choice to enjoyment in that kind of situation?  It is like our current election - if one is going to vote, then one must make a choice.  For the vast majority that I have talked to, none "enjoy" it.  All to often choices are not made from enjoyment but from lessor of two evils standpoint.


Baseless attacks...?  Other than a quick little Trump poke, how were you attacked?  If you are that thin-skinned, I kinda feel for you in all your future dealings in life....

As for an answer to your question - I gotta ask you why should Tulsa NOT be held to a higher standard??   Your question alone implies abdication to the idea the those two places are inherently 'better' than Tulsa to start with.  I also submit that while it is good to keep an eye on others around us (like Portland and Seattle), we should strive to be the best that we can be and ALWAYS be working toward improving that!!  NO MATTER how far behind OR ahead of others we may be!

And there is your "Trumpy-ness" again - putting words into my mouth that I did not say - "Tulsa's ranking near the top in the US in fewest homeless is a complete failure."   Ya really owe it to yourself to step away from the Faux News once in a while.....


Still looking for that first quote of yours...can't find it.  The one saying I said they enjoy homeless living....  Got a post number?


I don't even know where to begin with all of your terrible logic. I do not watch Fox News and I am not a republican or even close to being one. Serious question, have you been diagnosed with a mental disorder? If not, you should go see someone about that.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #234 on: November 02, 2016, 03:12:53 pm »


As for an answer to your question - I gotta ask you why should Tulsa NOT be held to a higher standard??   Your question alone implies abdication to the idea the those two places are inherently 'better' than Tulsa to start with.  I also submit that while it is good to keep an eye on others around us (like Portland and Seattle), we should strive to be the best that we can be and ALWAYS be working toward improving that!!  NO MATTER how far behind OR ahead of others we may be!

And there is your "Trumpy-ness" again - putting words into my mouth that I did not say - "Tulsa's ranking near the top in the US in fewest homeless is a complete failure."   Ya really owe it to yourself to step away from the Faux News once in a while.....


No, asking why Tulsa needs to eliminate homelessness far below any other city in the US is not "abdication" that those places are better, just that that is something Tulsa does far better so using those as examples of where they supposedly do it right is ridiculous. And of the ways where Tulsa could learn from other cities, that is not one of them. We have an incredibly generous community. They should learn from Tulsa on that. Your rant about republicans getting in the way of reducing homelessness was a poorly written excuse for an argument and was filled with sweeping generalizations with inherent fallacies.

I love to hate on Republicans as much as the next person but you sound like one of those old grumpy democrats everyone complains about in the suburbs and I don't even know what your age is.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #235 on: November 02, 2016, 03:30:05 pm »

I don't even know where to begin with all of your terrible logic. I do not watch Fox News and I am not a republican or even close to being one. Serious question, have you been diagnosed with a mental disorder? If not, you should go see someone about that.


And yet, even though I have answered your question(s), and addressed your comments directly, you start slinging insults.  And attempting deflection and misdirection.   Just address the first paragraph... I will repeat;

"How can you possibly equate a choice to enjoyment in that kind of situation?  It is like our current election - if one is going to vote, then one must make a choice.  For the vast majority that I have talked to, none "enjoy" it.  All to often choices are not made from enjoyment but from lessor of two evils standpoint."


You are the one that tried to put words in my mouth about homeless "enjoying" the lifestyle.  Unless you can show me that quote - as requested in the last line of that post, then one can only conclude that you intentionally injected a lie into the discussion.  Again, a typical Trump and Faux News method, so you can see how I would make that connection...



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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #236 on: November 02, 2016, 03:52:13 pm »


And yet, even though I have answered your question(s), and addressed your comments directly, you start slinging insults.  And attempting deflection and misdirection.   Just address the first paragraph... I will repeat;

"How can you possibly equate a choice to enjoyment in that kind of situation?  It is like our current election - if one is going to vote, then one must make a choice.  For the vast majority that I have talked to, none "enjoy" it.  All to often choices are not made from enjoyment but from lessor of two evils standpoint."


You are the one that tried to put words in my mouth about homeless "enjoying" the lifestyle.  Unless you can show me that quote - as requested in the last line of that post, then one can only conclude that you intentionally injected a lie into the discussion.  Again, a typical Trump and Faux News method, so you can see how I would make that connection...




I have met a couple of the people who were living behind the troll in Seattle - at least at the time I was there -  and they were not ignored/neglected by the powers that be.  They just chose to be where they were, even though they seemed to imply they could have had a more 'conventional' roof than a bridge if they had chosen to. As it was early summer and very pleasant weather, I could see the attraction to "camping out"....being outdoors while the weather is good.


All of that says it's nice weather, they were paid attention to by authorities/taken care of, they chose that life even though they "could have had a more 'conventional' roof". Plus you are comparing it to camping out which is a recreational activity! How does that not imply that they enjoyed being homeless?

If I had the option of sleeping inside or outside and I chose to sleep outside, it would be because I enjoyed that. Otherwise I would choose to sleep inside. Why would I choose to sleep outside if I both 1) had the option to sleep inside and 2) did not enjoy sleeping outside?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 03:56:54 pm by TulsaGoldenHurriCAN » Logged
heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #237 on: November 02, 2016, 03:56:55 pm »

No, asking why Tulsa needs to eliminate homelessness far below any other city in the US is not "abdication" that those places are better, just that that is something Tulsa does far better so using those as examples of where they supposedly do it right is ridiculous. And of the ways where Tulsa could learn from other cities, that is not one of them. We have an incredibly generous community. They should learn from Tulsa on that. Your rant about republicans getting in the way of reducing homelessness was a poorly written excuse for an argument and was filled with sweeping generalizations with inherent fallacies.

I love to hate on Republicans as much as the next person but you sound like one of those old grumpy democrats everyone complains about in the suburbs and I don't even know what your age is.


I was agreeing with Michael when he called BS on your blast of liberal versus conservative cities approach to the problem.  And then he mentioned specifics.  Got some of those??

Yes, we do have a very generous community.  They do too, so don't really need to learn from Tulsa on that - all on the same page.

As for sweeping generalizations - you just made a whopper!  Again, got some of those specifics??

Your "hate on Republicans as much as the next person" rings hollow, unless viewed from a Libertarian point of view...especially when you (falsely) compare/contrast liberal cities versus conservative cities.  And just for the record, I don't hate on Republicans at all - I swing both ways - Republican and Democrat.  What I DO hate on is the Hijacked Republican Party, which is a horse of a different kettle of fish!!


As for my age - well that proves you have not been paying attention!  I have made it very plain around here that I am older than dirt!  And may well be older than rock!!  I am sure I am older than Aqua and may be older than sauerkraut!!  (Little back-handed passive-aggressive shot at Aqua there...Sorry, Aqua!  Well, a little bit anyway!)  But trust me, I am an equal opportunity abuser!  I go after Dems as much as Repubs - at least real Repubs!   Hijacked Repubs - we gotta get a new name for what has stolen that party...something reflective of what they are.  I will think on that.

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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #238 on: November 02, 2016, 04:11:51 pm »


All of that says it's nice weather, they were paid attention to by authorities/taken care of, they chose that life even though they "could have had a more 'conventional' roof". Plus you are comparing it to camping out which is a recreational activity! How does that not imply that they enjoyed being homeless?

If I had the option of sleeping inside or outside and I chose to sleep outside, it would be because I enjoyed that. Otherwise I would choose to sleep inside. Why would I choose to sleep outside if I both 1) had the option to sleep inside and 2) did not enjoy sleeping outside?


Camping out is a generic term applied to a wide variety of unconventional arrangements just to provide a convenient concise term to put an umbrella over a wide variety of sleeping arrangements/habits that don't involve being in a regular house.  I call what I do most of the time "camping out", even though it doesn't involve a tent, but a travel trailer.

Camping out to most of us here IS a recreational activity but that would be "enjoyable" because YOU enjoy it!  If you do enjoy camping out....  Your personal overlay put on to those people.  I have two friends who to this day do not like being under a roof because of nightmares/memories from PTSD they got from their time in our Southeast Asia Imperialistic Voyeurism Games.  One MUST have the window right next to his bed and it MUST be opened all the time - no matter what is happening outside!  He is always more at ease outside the house...camping out!  Not really enjoying it either, just less tormented.   Able to 'work with' his demons.

Neither you nor I have any idea of the true motivations/thoughts/mindsets of most, if not all, of the homeless both here and in Portland/Seattle.

It most likely isn't considered a 'recreational activity' in the sense you understand it.  It may well be - probably is - the preferred choice of other less than desirable choices.

And Michael covered how Seattle tries to make an effort...
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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
Bamboo World
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« Reply #239 on: November 02, 2016, 05:27:50 pm »


On November 9th, the Downtown Coordinating Council (DCC) will host a public meeting to discuss Iron Gate's proposed move to a site approximately 3.33 blocks from its current location.

Wednesday, November 9, 1:30pm, at City Hall

Info from a November 2, 2016 Tulsa World online article by Mike Averill.
 
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