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January 18, 2020, 08:52:52 pm
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Author Topic: Downtown Development Overview  (Read 365127 times)
Oil Capital
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« Reply #1620 on: January 06, 2020, 08:50:23 pm »

Ask the Chamber. They’re a private entity so I guess they’ll show us when they want to. My guess is that the ongoing dispute over the hotel assessment may have something to do with it.

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/government-and-politics/tulsa-hotelier-seeking-to-stop-hotel-assessment-fails-to-provide/article_27d55a93-deaf-5b38-820e-3217e3280394.html

It's delayed while they get the numbers to pencil out; it's delayed because of the change of ownership (that occurred months after the study was promised to b released); it's delayed because of the hotel assessment lawsuit...
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Tulsan
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« Reply #1621 on: January 06, 2020, 09:03:17 pm »

It's delayed while they get the numbers to pencil out; it's delayed because of the change of ownership (that occurred months after the study was promised to b released); it's delayed because of the hotel assessment lawsuit...

I have no idea why they’re holding it back. Those are guesses. But I do know these things:
-the USL is requiring clubs to have a plan for soccer-specific stadiums by end of this year
-the Chamber has been “studying” the issue for a couple of years now
-there’s brand new ownership that would be aware of the prior two facts, bought the team anyway, and issued a press release referencing building a new stadium.
So it’s reasonable to expect concrete details this year. Or else the team will move out of Tulsa. That could happen too.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #1622 on: January 07, 2020, 10:12:47 am »

Does TU Soccer currently play on the field just west of Delaware north of Bama Pie?  I like the idea of having Chapman Stadium also used for soccer.  I think the area along 11th through TU is on the verge of redevelopment into a more pedestrian-oriented streetscape that ties into the new Rt 66 developments further west.  Having more people in that area for both soccer and football/basketball games is good for that.

The field just to the north of BAMA is a practice field. Not sure if you meant that or the soccer field/stadium which is just north of 6th and Delaware. I wonder if it could be expanded to meet the ASL requirements.

I'm just envisioning a future where there may not be football played there anymore or at least not on the competition level it is currently a member of. The TU admin is either OK with being the punching bag team in exchange for TV revenue or they plan to just let it dwindle out of existence over time.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #1623 on: January 07, 2020, 10:25:18 am »

Chapman's field isn't actually wide enough and it's not grass.

I didn't realize the soccer field had to be grass, but it could be changed to that if absolutely necessary. I wonder if Skelly field could be widened? They used to play professional soccer there in the 80s with the original Roughnecks.

Still, 15th and Yale seems the ideal spot for it. Tulsa County should be falling over itself to get a deal struck to build one where they prematurely demolished he old usable baseball stadium.

If it gets built, far better option to build within the confines of the city vs in the suburbs and seems like the best option is on Tulsa County Grounds in the heart of the city which would likely be used for nothing else in the forseeable future.

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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #1624 on: January 07, 2020, 10:43:07 am »

11th and Denver???  Wow, that would be another huge swing and a miss (not at all surprising that would be the Chamber's choice). 

BTW, yes, 17 acres is more than a city block. A lot more.  17 acres takes up more than 6 downtown Tulsa city blocks.  I'd love to see how they propose to assemble 17 acres around 11th and Denver.

That would be interesting to see. There's only so many more develop-able blocks left and wise city leadership should be very careful to not completely destroy the chance at a walkable/urban area. A soccer stadium would bring some people in on a hand full of days a year, but then destroy any chance of a lively urban area in those specific blocks almost indefinitely and is using up some of the most valuable/pricey real estate. The only exception would be if they built something that incorporated street level retail and maybe even had some residential built in to it like this proposed development close to that area of south downtown:



We already have BOK Center, about 12 churches and OneOk field that have huge footprints, bring in a lot of very short-term visitors and are basically permanently excluded from any sort of urbanization It's over 20 churches if you go right outside the perimeter of the IDL, and another big one is planed by the Nordam development. Then the BMX Facility is coming in just outside and a couple big ponds planned for east of it.

While those things are useful parts of society and need to go somewhere, it is hard to argue for more and more things like that to keep taking up the last bits of usable space in the IDL. They preclude any sort of real urban development. They are dead zones most the year. Collectively, most of those are a small part of what kept downtown going during the lean years and a big part of why downtown seems to have a very low peak compared to many other more vibrant liveable downtowns. It's part of why our downtown feels like a place to stop in and visit rather than a real thriving neighborhood.

Arenas are understandable and sort of a necessary evil for most urban areas, but outdoor stadiums are not. San Francisco and NYC completely pushed the big stadiums out of the city. If you go to any city with a big NFL stadium right in the core, it is always a massive no-go zone for most the year (usually boring and lifeless around them). It's fine if you have really well developed urban areas, but Tulsa is trying to put tons of these in the same precious area then act surprised when our downtown is still almost vacant most the time (outside a few spots which do have some decent urban development).
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Oil Capital
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« Reply #1625 on: January 07, 2020, 11:42:39 am »

That would be interesting to see. There's only so many more develop-able blocks left and wise city leadership should be very careful to not completely destroy the chance at a walkable/urban area. A soccer stadium would bring some people in on a hand full of days a year, but then destroy any chance of a lively urban area in those specific blocks almost indefinitely and is using up some of the most valuable/pricey real estate. The only exception would be if they built something that incorporated street level retail and maybe even had some residential built in to it like this proposed development close to that area of south downtown:




Did they create that design todemonstrate how a soccer stadium will not fit (length-wise or width-wise) on a city block?
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #1626 on: January 07, 2020, 12:12:34 pm »

Did they create that design todemonstrate how a soccer stadium will not fit (length-wise or width-wise) on a city block?

Why would they waste their time to do that? It's obvious a soccer stadium wouldn't fit on a city block.

This is a creative mixed-use multi-sport facility that takes away nothing from street level and adds retail on ground level without removing the parking needed by TCC. It's intended for intramural and maybe up to junior high or high school level sports, not for any professional team (Although the Tulsa Athletics was using veterans park so this would be an upgrade in that case).

Obviously a soccer stadium would be far larger than this and almost certainly far more wasteful with the space.
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Oil Capital
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« Reply #1627 on: January 07, 2020, 02:13:05 pm »

Why would they waste their time to do that? It's obvious a soccer stadium wouldn't fit on a city block.

This is a creative mixed-use multi-sport facility that takes away nothing from street level and adds retail on ground level without removing the parking needed by TCC. It's intended for intramural and maybe up to junior high or high school level sports, not for any professional team (Although the Tulsa Athletics was using veterans park so this would be an upgrade in that case).

Obviously a soccer stadium would be far larger than this and almost certainly far more wasteful with the space.

Oh.  Well, in that case... why would they waste their time doing that?    ;-)
« Last Edit: January 07, 2020, 02:15:30 pm by Oil Capital » Logged

 
TylerBGoode
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« Reply #1628 on: January 10, 2020, 11:59:18 am »

I'm just envisioning a future where there may not be football played there anymore or at least not on the competition level it is currently a member of. The TU admin is either OK with being the punching bag team in exchange for TV revenue or they plan to just let it dwindle out of existence over time.

Dropping football would almost certainly mean getting kicked out of the AAC for Olympic sports which would mean a huge drop in TV revenue when TU ends up in the MVC again. TU is only a few years removed from a 10 win season and crowds of 20k+. The program will bounce back.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #1629 on: January 10, 2020, 01:21:42 pm »

Dropping football would almost certainly mean getting kicked out of the AAC for Olympic sports which would mean a huge drop in TV revenue when TU ends up in the MVC again. TU is only a few years removed from a 10 win season and crowds of 20k+. The program will bounce back.

Regardless, TU needs to get creative and look for alternate funding sources. If they could somehow utilize the stadium more often, they should be making proposals to do it. It's irritating seeing all the academic cuts but they pay millions in lost revenue to an athletics program that does not have community or even student support.

Even when Kragthorpe turned it around and during 10-win years, there were many games with ~15k attendance and that is just not a great level of support from the city and was proof no amount of winning will get people to show up consistently.

Tulsa was packing out the 45k Chapman stadium for pro soccer in the 80s. They would be wise to at least attempt bring pro soccer there again. If that means changing to grass, widening it and potentially taking out some seats, it would still be a net positive for the community. USL requires ~70 yards by 110. The 110 length is there. The 70 would be tricky, but there is space. For the sake of Tulsa, it would be much better use of space and resources than putting in a new $50 million stadium downtown.

They've shared baseball/football/soccer stadiums in many other cities. Soccer/football is one of the easier mixed sports to share. Most of the existing and proposed USL/USLC stadiums have less than 20k capacity. Chapman stadium matches the largest proposed MLS stadium! That seems like an opportunity to bat for the fences!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer-specific_stadium#Proposed_USL_soccer-specific_stadiums
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Oil Capital
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« Reply #1630 on: January 10, 2020, 01:50:16 pm »

Regardless, TU needs to get creative and look for alternate funding sources. If they could somehow utilize the stadium more often, they should be making proposals to do it. It's irritating seeing all the academic cuts but they pay millions in lost revenue to an athletics program that does not have community or even student support.

Even when Kragthorpe turned it around and during 10-win years, there were many games with ~15k attendance and that is just not a great level of support from the city and was proof no amount of winning will get people to show up consistently.

Tulsa was packing out the 45k Chapman stadium for pro soccer in the 80s. They would be wise to at least attempt bring pro soccer there again. If that means changing to grass, widening it and potentially taking out some seats, it would still be a net positive for the community. USL requires ~70 yards by 110. The 110 length is there. The 70 would be tricky, but there is space. For the sake of Tulsa, it would be much better use of space and resources than putting in a new $50 million stadium downtown.

They've shared baseball/football/soccer stadiums in many other cities. Soccer/football is one of the easier mixed sports to share. Most of the existing and proposed USL/USLC stadiums have less than 20k capacity. Chapman stadium matches the largest proposed MLS stadium! That seems like an opportunity to bat for the fences!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer-specific_stadium#Proposed_USL_soccer-specific_stadiums

Great points.  They should definitely explore this option... seems like a win-win.   But, I think you're exaggerating the attendance at Roughnecks games in the 80s.  First, I'm pretty sure the capacity of Chapman Stadium topped out at about 40,000.  Second, I cannot find any evidence that the Roughnecks consistently (if ever) drew more than 30,000. Their Wikipedia page shows their average attendance topped out in 1980 at just under 20,000.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #1631 on: January 10, 2020, 03:03:09 pm »

Great points.  They should definitely explore this option... seems like a win-win.   But, I think you're exaggerating the attendance at Roughnecks games in the 80s.  First, I'm pretty sure the capacity of Chapman Stadium topped out at about 40,000.  Second, I cannot find any evidence that the Roughnecks consistently (if ever) drew more than 30,000. Their Wikipedia page shows their average attendance topped out in 1980 at just under 20,000.

Oh! Thanks for the correction. I guess that must've been from either word of mouth or from newspaper writings exaggerating attendance. 20,000 is still impressive considering average soccer attendance and capacities in MLS.

MLS/USL/USLC seems like it is a niche sport Tulsa could potentially get into and do well with similar to OKC & the NBA. Obviously NBA isn't an option and it's much easier to get 20k to come see pro sports than to compete for near billion dollar stadiums needed to draw pro football teams. Tulsa has a decent rabid baseball fan base and baseball isn't ubiquitous on TV/streaming so still a big time live sport where it really is much better being there.
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shavethewhales
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« Reply #1632 on: January 11, 2020, 11:25:08 am »

Ripley's Bar and Grill is now open. Was in DT last night but didn't wander around much due to the rain, so I haven't checked it out yet, but it sounds nice.

111 Greenwood is up to the third floor in framing. Starting to look like something.

Davenport still has a couple floors to go I think, but it looks huge just driving by on the freeway. Can't wait for WPX to go vertical.
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