Downtown Development Overview

[TulsaBeMore]

Yes!  I was thinking it had "Barney" in it.  After a little Google search, I believe it was Charlie and Barney's Chili Parlor.  A cool place to eat and watch skaters.

Thank you. You nailed it.  Isn't it silly how trying to recall something like this can drive you nuts!  I Googled images and saw the logo and was 100% positive that was it --- an article on the last store closing in its hometown of Indianapolis in 2013 said the privately owned chain had 8 locations around the country including the one in Tulsa.  Remember how the Williams and Helmerichs used to lure retailers to the Forum and Utica Square.  Utica Square does not seem like what it was when Mr. H was alive.  It could be sooooo much more.  An office tower and a condo tower could be among cool new shops & a 2-story micro brew, etc.     

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

City updating its downtown, near-downtown housing study with an eye toward accelerated residential growth


For all of the talk about the resurgence of downtown Tulsa, city officials know the area won't truly flourish until more people choose to live there.

The same holds true for the neighborhoods that surround it.

Toward that end, the city this week is joining forces with a private consulting firm to update its downtown and near-downtown housing study. Consultants with Development Strategies were in Tulsa on Monday to meet with local stakeholders and neighborhood leaders to begin the six-month project.



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Nick Doctor, the city's chief of community development and policy, said the project is about more than tallying the number of housing units in the study area.

"This is going to be a very community-driven process that intentionally speaks to what the residents who are here currently are hoping for and what they view as success when it comes to their neighborhood," Doctor said.

The city's first downtown housing study, completed in 2010, focused on whether there was a demand for downtown living space. There was, as evidenced by the long list of residential developments that have opened since then, or are about to open

But Kian Kamas, the city's chief of economic development, believes even better times are ahead.

"I think Tulsa is generally more conservative in development," Kamas said. "When you look at a city like Oklahoma City, you've seen a lot more speculative housing development. I think Tulsa is starting to pick up."

The housing study will help the city develop policies and allocate resources as it works with the development community and other local stakeholders to accelerate residential growth downtown and in adjacent neighborhoods such as Crutchfield, Pearl and Crosbie Heights.

It will also explore what amenities potential downtown residents would like to see in new developments, whether they be single-family homes or multi-unit apartments, as well as what services and attractions would draw people to live in a downtown neighborhood.

"I think this study will also be focused on, how do we make sure that we have just the right mix downtown?" Doctor said. "How are we thinking about making sure downtown is accessible for all residents who want to live downtown? And how are we developing our incentives and our programs to ensure that happens?"

Matt Wetli, a consultant with Development Strategies, said the study would also look into what Tulsa can do to ensure that residents living downtown or near downtown aren't hurt by the very development the city is trying to encourage.

"How do we harness some of this growth and ensure that the folks that are living here today, that this place continues to work for (those) people?" Wetli said.

The housing update is being conducted at an opportune time for the city: In 2019-2020, about $11 million will become available as part of the city's revolving-fund program. Approved by voters as part of Vision 2025, the loans have historically been issued with a 0% interest rate with the intent of spurring downtown development.

The updated housing study, Kamas said, will be used to assess new applications for loans.

"We are not doing a study just for the fun of studying things, but to really, at the conclusion of this, take a look at the results of the study and figure out where we should redeploy those dollars," she said.

Kamas said she's especially pleased with the group of local stakeholders, including everyone from developers to bankers to city councilors, who have agreed to help guide the process as part of a steering committee.

"It is just great to have such a fresh group of people representing a variety of stakeholders," she said.

In addition to holding meetings with stakeholders and the neighborhoods' residents, the city also plans to create an online survey to gather input and take comments.

The study will cost the city approximately $100,000.

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/city-updating-its-downtown-near-downtown-housing-study-with-an/article_956c730b-a2f0-59e9-86eb-f4f2da630227.html

[shavethewhales]

Apparently the old Hartford building is close to being occupied by a Denver based company, and the lot in front of it is being developed into this: https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/bhow-family-adds-bustle-to-east-village-with-new-tenants/article_0cca0b7c-a0b0-53d8-9a07-b1b183ff103a.html

It's quite a change from the original proposal, which was supposed to be a couple stories taller and include some kind of food court option, but this looks good and will add even more to the area. Seems a bit odd how it is oriented along 1st street instead of Greenwood.

[ELG4America]

Apparently the old Hartford building is close to being occupied by a Denver based company, and the lot in front of it is being developed into this: https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/bhow-family-adds-bustle-to-east-village-with-new-tenants/article_0cca0b7c-a0b0-53d8-9a07-b1b183ff103a.html

It's quite a change from the original proposal, which was supposed to be a couple stories taller and include some kind of food court option, but this looks good and will add even more to the area. Seems a bit odd how it is oriented along 1st street instead of Greenwood.

Its a good looking development. I actually like that they went with a smaller design that keeps the surface parking on the south side for now. It leaves open the possibility of a further development there in the future.

I've been getting concerned that ownership in downtown was becoming too concentrated. From a financial perspective if something brought down one of the big developers it could create a domino effect that set us back 10 years. Smaller developments owned by diverse property owners creates a sort of firewall to financial contagions. I wonder who the Denver company is; I'm betting niche tech company.

[SXSW]

Rendering at 1st & Greenwood (looking southeast)

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Apparently the old Hartford building is close to being occupied by a Denver based company, and the lot in front of it is being developed into this: https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/bhow-family-adds-bustle-to-east-village-with-new-tenants/article_0cca0b7c-a0b0-53d8-9a07-b1b183ff103a.html

It's quite a change from the original proposal, which was supposed to be a couple stories taller and include some kind of food court option, but this looks good and will add even more to the area. Seems a bit odd how it is oriented along 1st street instead of Greenwood.

You're right. It is quite a bit smaller than what they had originally planned:

111 Greenwood / Greenwood Social
(development formerly known as Hartford Crossing),

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/whetting-an-appetite-developer-plans-food-hall-concept-for-greenwood/article_57494e1b-0785-5a3d-82e8-63d104de6f63.html

Still looks great, but the original rendering was outstanding. I had a feeling it was way too good to be true, especially considering they didn't even use the surrounding buildings in the rendering which made me think it was a generic design straight from another project.

[SXSW]

You're right. It is quite a bit smaller than what they had originally planned:

Still looks great, but the original rendering was outstanding. I had a feeling it was way too good to be true, especially considering they didn't even use the surrounding buildings in the rendering which made me think it was a generic design straight from another project.

Maybe they could do something more like the original plan for Phase 2 on the south side of the parking lot at 2nd & Greenwood. 

[TheArtist]

Just a note some might find interesting.

We have had DECOPOLIS downtown now for about 7 years.

First 3 were at 6th & Boston across from the park.  We had hoped that area would see more retail infill. But that did not happen while we were there.  But we used this time here to slowly build from practically nothing to having a pretty decent little shop.

We then moved to a much larger location one block down and more than double the space we had before.  

Last year our sales were up 30% over the previous year.  The year before that our sales were up by 20% from the year before that.   Very good growth.  

But then they took out the shops by us end of last year.  Mods Coffee & Crepes left.  Our little museum had to shut down for a time during construction.  A bank went in where the little shops were and a coffee shop has gone into the Mods space.  

Our sales have been stagnant this year so far.  We have actually noticed a slow, steady decline from the first of the year till now.   Mayest moving hurt us big time that month.  We are still doing ok and are hopeful we can reverse the trend for the holidays when we do the most sales.  

On the bright side for our business, we opened a spot at the Mother Road Market this year.  A 10' X 10' space.


And here is the shocker.....


Many days our sales are about half to similar the sales as our almost 4,000 square foot space downtown.   100 Sq Ft  4,0000 Sq Ft., about 10 times the rent at the downtown location, and the smaller spot is getting us approximately 2/3 the sales as the downtown location.

Unless something dramatic changes in our area of downtown, we will be moving at the end of our lease.

We have learned a couple of things with this experience.  We have been working REALLY exceptionally, Herculeingly (is that a word?lol) hard downtown per the return.  And having actual foot traffic (Mother Road Market0 is an amazing experience!

The Lobeck Taylor foundation is doing things right.  They are curating what they have in the area, the new development across the street will have retail/restaurant.  The new development they are putting in on the corner of 11th and Lewis will have retail.  They are out there asking for proposals for retail and will choose the best fits / balance of retail (bookstore, toy store, etc.).  

Whereas the downtown developers seem to just take whatever will pay the rent without any retail plan.  They say they want retail... but if a bank, architect firm, whatever wants in a spot... thats fine. Either they are lying about wanting retail, or they don't get it.  I also don't think that they get that if they had a coordinated plan and stuck to it, they could also "ask and get" retail. They could even be in the position to be choosy about what retail they wanted.   When you add uncertainty by saying "Whatever pays the rent can go in this area." and you show that that is true.  That's completely the opposite of saying "We want this to be retail and the right mix of retail (which greatly ups the probability of success, and the desirability of retail to want to move to the spots).  

A good, urban retail corridor can command ground and second floor rates that are equal to 3-6 floors or more of office space.  You can essentially add several more floors of rent to your buildings by doing the first floors correctly.

[DTowner]

Just a note some might find interesting.

We have had DECOPOLIS downtown now for about 7 years.

First 3 were at 6th & Boston across from the park.  We had hoped that area would see more retail infill. But that did not happen while we were there.  But we used this time here to slowly build from practically nothing to having a pretty decent little shop.

We then moved to a much larger location one block down and more than double the space we had before.  

Last year our sales were up 30% over the previous year.  The year before that our sales were up by 20% from the year before that.   Very good growth.  

But then they took out the shops by us end of last year.  Mods Coffee & Crepes left.  Our little museum had to shut down for a time during construction.  A bank went in where the little shops were and a coffee shop has gone into the Mods space.  

Our sales have been stagnant this year so far.  We have actually noticed a slow, steady decline from the first of the year till now.   Mayest moving hurt us big time that month.  We are still doing ok and are hopeful we can reverse the trend for the holidays when we do the most sales.  

On the bright side for our business, we opened a spot at the Mother Road Market this year.  A 10' X 10' space.


And here is the shocker.....


Many days our sales are about half to similar the sales as our almost 4,000 square foot space downtown.   100 Sq Ft  4,0000 Sq Ft., about 10 times the rent at the downtown location, and the smaller spot is getting us approximately 2/3 the sales as the downtown location.

Unless something dramatic changes in our area of downtown, we will be moving at the end of our lease.

We have learned a couple of things with this experience.  We have been working REALLY exceptionally, Herculeingly (is that a word?lol) hard downtown per the return.  And having actual foot traffic (Mother Road Market0 is an amazing experience!

The Lobeck Taylor foundation is doing things right.  They are curating what they have in the area, the new development across the street will have retail/restaurant.  The new development they are putting in on the corner of 11th and Lewis will have retail.  They are out there asking for proposals for retail and will choose the best fits / balance of retail (bookstore, toy store, etc.).  

Whereas the downtown developers seem to just take whatever will pay the rent without any retail plan.  They say they want retail... but if a bank, architect firm, whatever wants in a spot... thats fine. Either they are lying about wanting retail, or they don't get it.  I also don't think that they get that if they had a coordinated plan and stuck to it, they could also "ask and get" retail. They could even be in the position to be choosy about what retail they wanted.   When you add uncertainty by saying "Whatever pays the rent can go in this area." and you show that that is true.  That's completely the opposite of saying "We want this to be retail and the right mix of retail (which greatly ups the probability of success, and the desirability of retail to want to move to the spots).  

A good, urban retail corridor can command ground and second floor rates that are equal to 3-6 floors or more of office space.  You can essentially add several more floors of rent to your buildings by doing the first floors correctly.

Wow, that is eye opening.  It's hard to be the only retailer on the block.  I suspect landlords simply lack confidence that the office building areas of downtown can support retail sufficiently to hold out for it or to actively promote it in their buildings.  Actively promoting it meaning more than just sticking a "for lease" sign in the window.

It is my understanding the Price Family has been actively targeting various styles of restaurants for their available spaces to increase the mix and variety of offerings downtown.  A similar approach for retail is likely necessary to make it work, but I just don't think the confidence is there among landlords to make that level of effort.

[TheArtist]

Does anyone have any idea what the major development announcement that is going to be at City Hall (With WPX Energy) today at 2:30 concerning a development in Greenwood, is about?

[MostSeriousness]

Yes.

[Rattle Trap]

Does anyone have any idea what the major development announcement that is going to be at City Hall (With WPX Energy) today at 2:30 concerning a development in Greenwood, is about?

I just saw that article this morning. Dont know what it is, but given the fact that the governor is making an appearance with other city and company officials I think it's safe to say it's a significant development. Guess we'll find out here in a few hours.

[swake]

I just saw that article this morning. Dont know what it is, but given the fact that the governor is making an appearance with other city and company officials I think it's safe to say it's a significant development. Guess we'll find out here in a few hours.

The Spaghetti Warehouse Building would seem to be on deck.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Just a note some might find interesting.

We have had DECOPOLIS downtown now for about 7 years.

First 3 were at 6th & Boston across from the park.  We had hoped that area would see more retail infill. But that did not happen while we were there.  But we used this time here to slowly build from practically nothing to having a pretty decent little shop.

We then moved to a much larger location one block down and more than double the space we had before.  

Last year our sales were up 30% over the previous year.  The year before that our sales were up by 20% from the year before that.   Very good growth.  

But then they took out the shops by us end of last year.  Mods Coffee & Crepes left.  Our little museum had to shut down for a time during construction.  A bank went in where the little shops were and a coffee shop has gone into the Mods space.  

Our sales have been stagnant this year so far.  We have actually noticed a slow, steady decline from the first of the year till now.   Mayest moving hurt us big time that month.  We are still doing ok and are hopeful we can reverse the trend for the holidays when we do the most sales.  

On the bright side for our business, we opened a spot at the Mother Road Market this year.  A 10' X 10' space.


And here is the shocker.....


Many days our sales are about half to similar the sales as our almost 4,000 square foot space downtown.   100 Sq Ft  4,0000 Sq Ft., about 10 times the rent at the downtown location, and the smaller spot is getting us approximately 2/3 the sales as the downtown location.

Unless something dramatic changes in our area of downtown, we will be moving at the end of our lease.

We have learned a couple of things with this experience.  We have been working REALLY exceptionally, Herculeingly (is that a word?lol) hard downtown per the return.  And having actual foot traffic (Mother Road Market0 is an amazing experience!

The Lobeck Taylor foundation is doing things right.  They are curating what they have in the area, the new development across the street will have retail/restaurant.  The new development they are putting in on the corner of 11th and Lewis will have retail.  They are out there asking for proposals for retail and will choose the best fits / balance of retail (bookstore, toy store, etc.).  

Whereas the downtown developers seem to just take whatever will pay the rent without any retail plan.  They say they want retail... but if a bank, architect firm, whatever wants in a spot... thats fine. Either they are lying about wanting retail, or they don't get it.  I also don't think that they get that if they had a coordinated plan and stuck to it, they could also "ask and get" retail. They could even be in the position to be choosy about what retail they wanted.   When you add uncertainty by saying "Whatever pays the rent can go in this area." and you show that that is true.  That's completely the opposite of saying "We want this to be retail and the right mix of retail (which greatly ups the probability of success, and the desirability of retail to want to move to the spots).  

A good, urban retail corridor can command ground and second floor rates that are equal to 3-6 floors or more of office space.  You can essentially add several more floors of rent to your buildings by doing the first floors correctly.

It sound like you've learned to make retail work in a very difficult environment and now you've used those advanced strategies you developed in a much easier environment. I love the Decopolis shop in Mother Road. I look forward to bringing my kiddo to see the interesting collection of things there when we go.

It seems like Mother Road Market hit a lot of areas in the right way at the right time to bring in a culture that midtown Tulsa has needed for a while. We've needed a dense place for creative culinary startups along with offshoots from the established local brands. Midtown doesn't have a mall (or a decent one) and no extremely dense retail areas. It seems like the new additions, it could make that area into one of the denser retail/food options. Although much heavier on the food for now, the mix already makes it a destination. Eventually, that corner could become a "day out" or "night out" kind of place like going to the mall used to be.

[shavethewhales]

WPX bought the old Spaghetti warehouse a couple years ago and signaled intentions to build a new office building there so they can move out of their Williams building lease. https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/report-wpx-energy-to-buy-former-spaghetti-warehouse-building/article_9f7ff2fa-f3d9-5bd5-ad14-1f5f336a63d0.html

Could be interesting. WPX is big and growing, so could be a tall building in store. Would rather it be redeveloped into more food/entertainment/lodging for the district, but a big new office building isn't anything to sneeze at.


Artist, I love Decopolis and really need to get down there and support it again. Honestly, it does feel like I go out of my way to get there... Hope you can find another great location closer to the action. Have you looked into the Boxyard?