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November 20, 2017, 08:47:30 pm
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Author Topic: Bio-Diesel Shuttle Project for DT Tulsa...  (Read 5285 times)
Red Arrow
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« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2012, 05:13:04 pm »

There is a reason the old folks exercise in malls...

Heated in the winter, air conditioned in the summer, food court nearby.
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Red Arrow
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« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2012, 05:47:44 pm »

Anything we can do to introduce the concept on smaller and less expensive way to allow people to test it out and potentially develop a core of users is probably the only way we can ever build support for spending the money necessary to develop something more substantial.

There is most likely a threshold size below which you are guaranteed to fail.
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Red Arrow
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« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2012, 05:51:08 pm »

How about the unmanned (but monitored remotely) system like so many airports have - closed loop shuttle cars that go around that circulator.  

I haven't been to the big airports lately but the last remote shuttle cars I saw were the equivalent of grade separated.  If you need to pay a remote observer/operator, you might as well have them on board.
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Red Arrow
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« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2012, 06:00:49 pm »

I would think 2 small busses to start out with downtown making a "circulator route" (perhaps 3 during busy times) would get you a short enough wait time.

Can anyone find out how much it costs the car rental companies and places line Fines Parking to operate their shuttles.  That might be a good size starter bus for a circulator.
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Conan71
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« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2012, 09:18:39 am »

Can anyone find out how much it costs the car rental companies and places line Fines Parking to operate their shuttles.  That might be a good size starter bus for a circulator.

BINGO!
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nathanm
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« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2012, 01:00:56 pm »

I think people would be more amenable to Tulsa Transit's short buses. It would be interesting to see a comparison of operating costs. I'd rather we just lay some damn track in the middle of some of the one ways and put in a real trolley. Buses generate less surrounding investment because they can be rerouted.
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carltonplace
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« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2012, 01:54:46 pm »

I think people would be more amenable to Tulsa Transit's short buses. It would be interesting to see a comparison of operating costs. I'd rather we just lay some damn track in the middle of some of the one ways and put in a real trolley. Buses generate less surrounding investment because they can be rerouted.

+1
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TheTed
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« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2012, 10:21:56 am »

I think people would be more amenable to Tulsa Transit's short buses. It would be interesting to see a comparison of operating costs. I'd rather we just lay some damn track in the middle of some of the one ways and put in a real trolley. Buses generate less surrounding investment because they can be rerouted.
I do think people would be more likely to wait for a trolley/streetcar. The ones in Memphis are slow and not that frequent, but pretty full when I ride them.

I guess I'm not the target market, but I can't really foresee a time when I'd wait for a bus from one side of downtown to the other, short of extremely inclement weather. It's a 10-15 minute walk. If you're doing any waiting for a bus, your trip will take longer than that.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2012, 10:39:21 am »

FWIW, I moved my son into the dorms at OU this past week. There were plenty of parking lots but they were all full! I vultured a lane of parking and waited for someone to leave. I noticed that there were several old Trolley style rubber wheeled, diesel shuttles operating continuously from the lots and all of them were filled with waiting lines for the next one. Truth is, none of the parking lots were more than a couple blocks away and easily walked. A few coach buses were also operating, presumably from outlying areas.

People are attracted to the different styled rubber wheeled trolleys. They are uncomfortable, noxious and noisy but still, people wait in line for them. I think people would be more likely to jump on a real, railed trolley than any thing MTTA would offer. JMO.
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Red Arrow
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« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2012, 11:37:25 am »

I do think people would be more likely to wait for a trolley/streetcar.

I believe people would be more likely to ride a (real) trolley too and have been trying to make that point on TNF for about 4 years.

Quote
The ones in Memphis are slow and not that frequent, but pretty full when I ride them.

I grew up around trolleys near Phila, PA ( http://goo.gl/maps/15OWv) but got re-introduced to them at a convention in Memphis in 2007.  I also saw the Little Rock, AR trolley on the way back from Memphis but the folks I was with were more interested in seeing the Clinton Library so I didn't get to ride in Little Rock.

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I guess I'm not the target market, but I can't really foresee a time when I'd wait for a bus from one side of downtown to the other, short of extremely inclement weather. It's a 10-15 minute walk. If you're doing any waiting for a bus, your trip will take longer than that.

I am similar but might not need extremely inclement weather depending on the destination and what I would be doing there.  All else being equal, I would be more likely to take a trolley than a bus.  
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 12:14:30 pm by Red Arrow » Logged

 
Red Arrow
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« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2012, 11:44:54 am »

FWIW, I moved my son into the dorms at OU this past week. There were plenty of parking lots but they were all full! I vultured a lane of parking and waited for someone to leave. I noticed that there were several old Trolley style rubber wheeled, diesel shuttles operating continuously from the lots and all of them were filled with waiting lines for the next one. Truth is, none of the parking lots were more than a couple blocks away and easily walked. A few coach buses were also operating, presumably from outlying areas.

People are attracted to the different styled rubber wheeled trolleys. They are uncomfortable, noxious and noisy but still, people wait in line for them. I think people would be more likely to jump on a real, railed trolley than any thing MTTA would offer. JMO.

My memories of moving in and out of the dorm involved carrying a bunch of stuff, more than I would want to carry a couple of blocks.  Without stuff to carry, I would most likely walk a few blocks unless the shuttle just happened to be there at the right time.

People are initially attracted to the trolley styled buses and some places have tried to use them without success to predict the ridership of a real trolley.  Something people forget, while in the nostalgia mode, is that the really early 20th century trolleys were not all that comfortable and frequently did not ride all that nicely.  Some of that had to do with maintenance of the trolley cars and the track but the basic design needed improvement to compete with buses.  That led to the development of the PCC trolleys which ran in some cities from the late 30s to the early 80s.  Not a bad run for a design.

Edit: add link
http://sacramentohistory.blogspot.com/2007/10/what-isand-isnta-trolley.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCC_streetcar


« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 11:57:52 am by Red Arrow » Logged

 
AquaMan
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« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2012, 12:40:00 pm »

My memories of moving in and out of the dorm involved carrying a bunch of stuff, more than I would want to carry a couple of blocks.  Without stuff to carry, I would most likely walk a few blocks unless the shuttle just happened to be there at the right time.


It was an easy move in. There were lots of young people in blue or yellow colored t-shirts that were offering to carry your stuff to the dorms and of course there were dolly carts that could be checked out. The kids were mostly volunteer upper classmen from area churches and were quite friendly. They made a quick presentation about youth activities in their church organizations without any pressure. Just really made it pleasant.

They even directed people to different lines for the elevators by floor. I chatted with one young man who told me he was a business management major. I relayed to him that was the one degree I told my son I would not fund. He said, "Absolutely understand. I am Pre-Med. I only want the degree to be able to manage my practice."
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Red Arrow
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« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2012, 12:47:29 pm »

I chatted with one young man who told me he was a business management major. I relayed to him that was the one degree I told my son I would not fund.

From your posts, I understand that.  There has to be a few other degrees you might try to talk him out of though.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2012, 01:33:42 pm »

From your posts, I understand that.  There has to be a few other degrees you might try to talk him out of though.

Pretty much left the others to his usually reliable decision-making process. He has interest in film, sports management and psychology. First courses are Calculus, Spanish, Physics and a couple of laughers.

He knows that if he made a compelling argument for a business degree I would relent. I just don't think its a good final degree without some purpose (like managing your own medical practice or pre-law).
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nathanm
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« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2012, 04:22:25 pm »

I guess I'm not the target market, but I can't really foresee a time when I'd wait for a bus from one side of downtown to the other, short of extremely inclement weather. It's a 10-15 minute walk. If you're doing any waiting for a bus, your trip will take longer than that.

If I were going clear across downtown, say from the Doubletree to the ballpark, I'd probably try to walk along the route of a bus and get on if/when it came by (so long as I wasn't already almost there, anyway). But yes, I think it would be more useful to take people between the various DT venues, Cherry Street, and possibly Brookside in a streetcar/trolley type thing. Portland paid around $13 million per track mile, not including the cost of the rolling stock itself.

http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/pdf/development_200804_report.pdf

With a decent circulator downtown and in the nearby areas, it would be a lot easier to get people to refrain from driving their cars all the way in, thus reducing the need for parking. And, if it actually works that way, be a fairly strong indication that rail from the suburbs has a decent chance of working.

The only sad thing is that I'd find it hard to justify running a trolley up Boston Ave, even though it would make for some iconic pictures with the BOk Tower in the background and the urban canyon north of 6th or so to either side.
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"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration" --Abraham Lincoln
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