Let's Go Waterboarding!!!

[tim huntzinger]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

[quoteHow would you have waged WWII more effectively General Timmy?  Limiting collateral damage is a convenience of war that, interestingly enough, only the US exercises, and certainly only one that is unique to the latter decades of the last century.

I would have dropped smarty pants loyyahs on the Axis until they gave up . . .

My point was that while the US was not waterboarding, it was taking other actions that were a wee more drastic.  If one were to say that our standards have declined, I believe we ought to harken back to them good old days and do like they did.  Stop waterboarding and start bombing.

[Rico]

Originally posted by iplaw.

quote:

Limiting collateral damage is a convenience of war that, interestingly enough, only the US exercises, and certainly only one that is unique to the latter decades of the last century.

Strangely enough this little item may have led to more damage than repair...

Our President and others build a case for the use of "torture"... and yet they say we go out of our way to be humane during war..

I say.. had we gone to Afghanistan and placed no muzzles on the F-16's or any other portion of the Military... We may have prevented much of what has happened since that portion gave way to the ground forces...
The earth, in and around Bin Laden's camp, should have been left as barren and scorched as that around ground zero.

Many point to the fact that Kadahfi was eager to give up his weapons and distance himself from the conflict...

I suppose having your bedroom bombed by an Air Force Jet and the subsequent death of one of your son's can cause a man to think differently.

You continue now with your discussion of what we can accomplish by trashing the Geneva Convention...

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

Ross' report is hardly definitive. Note that he used the words "if," "that's what we're told by sources" and "that's what the administration says."

The information he's getting is secondhand, and he also says that "it's an open debate" whether torture works.

That's hardly what I call a ringing endorsement of torture's effectiveness. Most military experts I've read say that standard interrogation to extract information is much more effective and reliable.

Mohammed's confessions have holes all over the place. He even claimed to attacking a bank that didn't even exist until after his arrest. And considering that criminals tend to exaggerate, it's fuzzy on what he did and what he didn't.

Since it's illegal to torture, you're putting your CIA officers and military members under a risk of war-crimes prosecution and the results are extremely erratic at best, why do it?

Again, I asked for evidence, not opinion, because your "opinion" of Ross' report is just that.  He was clear that valuable evidence was gained during waterboarding of KSM, and not all of his report was based upon unsubstantiated claims from the administration.  Was all of it valuable, probably not, but was a portion of it...according to Ross that answer is a definite yes.

Your contention was:

"The information extracted from torture is unreliable."

This statement is demonstrably false.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by Rico



[navy]Strangely enough this little item may have led to more damage than repair...

Our President and others build a case for the use of "torture"... and yet they say we go out of our way to be humane during war..

I say.. had we gone to Afghanistan and placed no muzzles on the F-16's or any other portion of the Military... We may have prevented much of what has happened since that portion gave way to the ground forces...
The earth, in and around Bin Laden's camp, should have been left as barren and scorched as that around ground zero.

Many point to the fact that Kadahfi was eager to give up his weapons and distance himself from the conflict...

I suppose having your bedroom bombed by an Air Force Jet and the subsequent death of one of your son's can cause a man to think differently.

Interesting take.  I don't see much I disagree with here.  Afghanistan refugees provided much of the Al-Q manpower we now see in Iraq.

quote:
You continue now with your discussion of what we can accomplish by trashing the Geneva Convention...

C'mon now Rico...you know the Geneva Convention doesn't apply to terrorists, even under the most liberal reading of the text.

Are you afraid that the Al-Q is going to waterboard our guys after they've sawed off their heads and hung their burning bodies?

[rwarn17588]

<iplaw wrote:

"The information extracted from torture is unreliable."

This statement is demonstrably false.

<end clip>

Oh, so you have experience in such matters? Since you're a lawyer, I guess that shouldn't surprise me. [}:)]

But seriously, my contention about the erratic results of torture stands. You know that this is true, and don't pretend it's not. Don't play dumb.

And I see that you have not repudiated my contention that torture is illegal and immoral.

I can only conclude that illegal actions and immorality are OK with you.

Two questions for y'all:

If this were a Democratic president who advocated torture, would you be so energetic in defending it?

Who would Jesus torture?

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

<iplaw wrote:

"The information extracted from torture is unreliable."

This statement is demonstrably false.

<end clip>

Oh, so you have experience in such matters? Since you're a lawyer, I guess that shouldn't surprise me. [}:)]

But seriously, my contention about the erratic results of torture stands. You know that this is true, and don't pretend it's not. Don't play dumb.

And I see that you have not repudiated my contention that torture is illegal and immoral.

I can only conclude that illegal actions and immorality are OK with you.

Two questions for y'all:

If this were a Democratic president who advocated torture, would you be so energetic in defending it?

Who would Jesus torture?

"Who would Jesus torture" is perhaps the most inane and irrelevant thing you have ever written. Your apparent belief that you can prove a point by throwing Jesus' name around speaks volumes to the strength of your position. No wait, RW, look how clever I am in the context of pro-life issues: "Who would Jesus abort?" There, the abortion debate is over.


As for the illegality or immorality of "torture", I am reminded of the great, right wing, fascist nutjob Harvard law prof Alan Dershowitz who wrote about torture warrants. Here is an article:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/22/ED5329.DTL

[tim huntzinger]

quote:
Two questions for y'all:

If this were a Democratic president who advocated torture, would you be so energetic in defending it?

Who would Jesus torture?

Lesse, Clinton wipes out 84 Branch Davidians and very little was said by mainstream conservative types.  Clinton kidnaps Elian Gonzales, no outrage from Americans.  If he had had the guts to authorize waterboarding, I doubt the mainstream would have freaked out like the left is now.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

<iplaw wrote:

"The information extracted from torture is unreliable."

This statement is demonstrably false.

<end clip>

Oh, so you have experience in such matters? Since you're a lawyer, I guess that shouldn't surprise me. [}:)]

But seriously, my contention about the erratic results of torture stands. You know that this is true, and don't pretend it's not. Don't play dumb.

And I see that you have not repudiated my contention that torture is illegal and immoral.

I can only conclude that illegal actions and immorality are OK with you.

Two questions for y'all:

If this were a Democratic president who advocated torture, would you be so energetic in defending it?

Who would Jesus torture?

"Who would Jesus torture" is perhaps the most inane and irrelevant thing you have ever written. Your apparent belief that you can prove a point by throwing Jesus' name around speaks volumes to the strength of your position. No wait, RW, look how clever I am in the context of pro-life issues: "Who would Jesus abort?" There, the abortion debate is over.


As for the illegality or immorality of "torture", I am reminded of the great, right wing, fascist nutjob Harvard law prof Alan Dershowitz who wrote about torture warrants. Here is an article:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/22/ED5329.DTL

Fantastic post.

[iplaw]

quote:If this were a Democratic president who advocated torture, would you be so energetic in defending it?

Not only would I defend them, but I would consider voting for them a second time around.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

quote:
Two questions for y'all:

If this were a Democratic president who advocated torture, would you be so energetic in defending it?

Who would Jesus torture?

Lesse, Clinton wipes out 84 Branch Davidians and very little was said by mainstream conservative types.  Clinton kidnaps Elian Gonzales, no outrage from Americans.  If he had had the guts to authorize waterboarding, I doubt the mainstream would have freaked out like the left is now.

Clinton turned the hose on an intern.  Conservatives were horrified.

[Breadburner]

And then didn't even pay for the dry cleaning bill.....

[Conan71]

How many of you had honestly ever even given any thought to (or heard of) waterboarding before the Mukasey hearings?

This was just a cheap attempt by ranking Dems. in the Senate to stick a thumb in Bush's eye.  How many other AG nominees have been asked about their position on waterboarding??

Amounted to nothing anyhow, he's confirmed 53-40.

[rwarn17588]

I've been against torture since way back when I was a member of Amnesty International in the 1980s.

Torture is simply morally repugnant -- period. There's no sense in the United States treating its captives like a backwards third-world nation would.

I'm mostly OK with Mukasey. Sure, his stance that he wasn't sure waterboard torture is illegal seemed disingenuous. But he did find waterboarding repugnant (his words). And his credentials are impeccable -- a far cry better than that dope Alberto Gonzales.

[tim huntzinger]

I am against torture, too.  I do not think that waterboarding as an interrogation is always torture.   For the record, false confessions can be drawn from any interrogation technique, it does not mean we just take a suspects word for it once they give us an answer.  This is all about trying to gin up war crime charges against Dubya.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

since way back when I was a member of Amnesty International in the 1980s.

I had suspected as much about you. []

Honestly, I think the people who edit the year-end news needed a new word to stick into the vernacular of 2007.

Torture's been an issue since before this country was founded.  You have to admit, grilling one AG candidate over this amounts to nothing more than D.C. politics.

Right, wrong, or otherwise, this won't end torture.  My personal perspective is, these are enemies we would shoot and kill on the battlefield, I honestly could care less what happens to them when they are interrogated.

Putting someone in prison for 40 years is torture as well, yet I don't hear many people crying out for prisoners with life terms.