This should tell you something about the river tax

[waterboy]

I realized today that there are NO businesses that have voiced opposition to the River Tax. NONE. No billboards, no ads in the paper, no mailers subsidized by area businesses. No wonder the anti's are whining about campaign funding and the cost of signs. They have no supporters among that community.[:O]

For once the Chamber of Commerce may be voicing the consensus opinion of business people in this city. Small or large, they buy the plan or don't oppose it enough to contribute.

That should tell you how business people look forward to an investment in our future river. Unless you're one of the conspiratorials who believe they're just afraid of the tax vampires.

[Breadburner]

Wrong......

[TheArtist]

I was thinking about that myself the other day. Though I am sure there must be some businesses against it, I cant remember having seen or heard of any. What ones there are must be fewer in number, or not very vocal about it, than other tax plans that have been proposed.

[waterboy]

If you read MBates' column in UT this week, one would have to believe that there is a conspiracy of powerful interests threatening to donate funds to opposing politicians if they don't support this plan. That is just not a Tulsa that I have ever seen. Can you imagine the likes of Sullivan and Inhofe being badgered by anyone? Are leading businesses and party members scared of Randi Miller? I doubt it.

Bottom line is, even leading republicans in a dominantly republican city, support this plan. Instead of interviewing Sullivan and Inhofe and determining WHY, conservatives have simply related that they are being forced by unknown, un-named power brokers to fall in line or face ouster from office at the next election. The paranoia is all encompassing.

I am hopelessly out of touch with the power elite in Tulsa. My profile just doesn't match. Democrat, non-professional, non-networked, non-golfer, state college, non conformist. So I cannot speak for them. But for other mainstream, rapidly aging and underappreciated boomers, I feel qualified.

The under 30 generation might as well be aliens to those of us over 50. But there is one thing we have in common with them. When we were that age we forced the city to change. We developed Mayfest, Oktoberfest, Zink Lake, Running Paths, The Tulsa Run, Brookside, Cherry Street, and a host of other things that are now taken for granted. We forced our will upon an established city leadership that didn't embrace our values. The same arguments you hear now were present then.

Now we are the established leadership and it is time for those under 30 to define and exact their will upon this city. If it isn't the river, then choose your focus, because you haven't much time. If it is the status quo, then sit back watch other communities enjoy the process.

[Breadburner]

The Sky is Falling...The Sky is Falling...Tell me who got to you Waterboy....?

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

If you read MBates' column in UT this week, one would have to believe that there is a conspiracy of powerful interests threatening to donate funds to opposing politicians if they don't support this plan. That is just not a Tulsa that I have ever seen. Can you imagine the likes of Sullivan and Inhofe being badgered by anyone? Are leading businesses and party members scared of Randi Miller? I doubt it.

Bottom line is, even leading republicans in a dominantly republican city, support this plan. Instead of interviewing Sullivan and Inhofe and determining WHY, conservatives have simply related that they are being forced by unknown, un-named power brokers to fall in line or face ouster from office at the next election. The paranoia is all encompassing.

I am hopelessly out of touch with the power elite in Tulsa. My profile just doesn't match. Democrat, non-professional, non-networked, non-golfer, state college, non conformist. So I cannot speak for them. But for other mainstream, rapidly aging and underappreciated boomers, I feel qualified.

The under 30 generation might as well be aliens to those of us over 50. But there is one thing we have in common with them. When we were that age we forced the city to change. We developed Mayfest, Oktoberfest, Zink Lake, Running Paths, The Tulsa Run, Brookside, Cherry Street, and a host of other things that are now taken for granted. We forced our will upon an established city leadership that didn't embrace our values. The same arguments you hear now were present then.

Now we are the established leadership and it is time for those under 30 to define and exact their will upon this city. If it isn't the river, then choose your focus, because you haven't much time. If it is the status quo, then sit back watch other communities enjoy the process.

What turned the tide for me was a friend who is almost ALWAYS in the NO when it comes to taxes.  Consistently votes Republican, is anti-tax, can't stand Kathy Taylor, and opposed vision2025....  He thinks this plan has merit, and it made me re-evaluate it.  Several developers I know are also in support of it, and these are people that also opposed 2025, the Channels, and pretty much any other plan that has come along in the last few years as a cure-all.  And call it bribery, but I think the Kaiser donation has also pushed me towards it.  I'm a 90% yes right now.

[swake]

The leaders of the no side are Michael "Only Christians should hold office" Bates, Dan "The Godless Zoo needs a creationism exhibit" Hicks,   Chris "no MBA" Medlock, Gwen "Immigration" Freeman, Jack "Hate the Chief because he sued me" Henderson and Randy "TABOR" Brogdon.

And of course Roscoe


What a team.

http://archives.urbantulsa.com/article.asp?id=2951

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4731156

http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?articleID=070804_7_A16_hWhat32475

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070906_1__Tulsa14883

http://newsok.com/article/3139044/1191381739

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Breadburner

The Sky is Falling...The Sky is Falling...Tell me who got to you Waterboy....?

Spoken like a true conspiratorial paranoid. Who got to me...thats funny. Why would anyone want to get to me? I'm poor as a church mouse, have zero prospects for politics and am basically too damn independent to be of any value in a political battle.

I got to speak at a student environmental group forum at TU this week flanked by Bates and Kirby Crowe. Both informed, inpassioned adversaries. I admire them both. They both make good arguments, they both have similar goals. The difference is that Kirby and co. have direct experience with this river and its checkered history. They have actually worked on and in the river. I don't detect in he or Rich Brierre (sp?) any unfounded optimism about the difficulty of managing it or any effort to minimize its warts.

Michael Bates may be right, but his arguments are primarily based on cynicism, paranoia and projections of his own experience in politics from what I can tell.

[RecycleMichael]

I was thinking it was some sort of water torture.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

I was thinking it was some sort of water torture.

Wouldn't work. Tends to relax me. As an insight into my perverse nature...I used to lock myself into the family wagon, a black Studebaker with red upholstery, on hot summer days with all the windows closed. Just to see how long I could take it.[8D]

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

I was thinking it was some sort of water torture.

Wouldn't work. Tends to relax me. As an insight into my perverse nature...I used to lock myself into the family wagon, a black Studebaker with red upholstery, on hot summer days with all the windows closed. Just to see how long I could take it.[8D]

You are in so much trouble now lol. Everyone bring on the brain damage comments lol.

[rwarn17588]

I'm still undecided on this issue, but I'm getting the impression that the "yes" folks are the ones gaining momentum right now.

Of course, that momentum could stop before the election and the river tax could still lose.

But I was predicting about a 10-point loss of the river initiative a month ago. Now, I'm not nearly as sure.

As usual, it will largely depend on how Midtown votes.

[Porky]

I'm unclear on the entire issue. My question isn't Yes or No but Why?

MAJOR RIVER WORK
Sand Springs low-water dam .................................$24.7 million
Zink Dam modifications .........................................$15.45 million
River channeling from Zink Dam to 71st Street ......$90 million
Jenks low-water dam ...............................................$24.7 million
Total ........................................................................$154.85 million

RIVER CORRIDOR LAND ACQUISITION AND SITE STUDIES
Tulsa west bank .........................................................$52.4 million
Bixby and Broken Arrow ................................................$5 million
Total .............................................................................$57.4 million

PEDESTRIAN BRIDGES AND DOWNTOWN CONNECTORS
Pedestrian bridges at 41st and 61st streets ............$30 million
Connectors and transportation corridor study ........$15 million
Total ................................................................................$45 million

PROJECT CONTINGENCY FUNDS $25 million
Total ..............................................................................$282 million

[shadows]

The whole process used is known as "Buy the election".  

If you applied the American  principles that we are enforcing on others at the end of a gun barrel, in all fairness, all donations to the proposition, should be placed in a pool and divided between the supporters of each side of the question.  

The advertisement firms selected would be paid by the election boards from the pool in equal amounts.

Heaven forbid the idea of the people hearing both sides of the question before going to the poll and voting.    

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by shadows

The whole process used is known as "Buy the election".  

If you applied the American  principles that we are enforcing on others at the end of a gun barrel, in all fairness, all donations to the proposition, should be placed in a pool and divided between the supporters of each side of the question.  

The advertisement firms selected would be paid by the election boards from the pool in equal amounts.

Heaven forbid the idea of the people hearing both sides of the question before going to the poll and voting.    

That's almost too silly to respond to. If we do that you might as well extend it to all elections and just collect $10 from each taxpayer and eliminate campaign contributions altogether. Good luck. Maybe in El Salvador.