moving to Tulsa, Flooding?

[RecycleMichael]

Shadows just hates city workers and has been complaining about Tulsa's stormwater program since the 1970s.

The facts say something different. Tulsa leaders invested in stormwater management after a number of terrible flood events and convinced the federal government to match the dollars almost 20 to 1.

Tulsa's program is now regularly called the best in the country and the national flood insurance program gives Tulsa residents the lowest flood insurance rates in the country.

And yes, shadows, other cities still have stormwater programs. In fact, most do. It is part of the responsibility of keeping a city safe.

[shadows]

Recycle quoted:

so are you suggesting, that when they published that book of recommended flood controls in 1984, they had enough time to implement those flood controls in the 30 days before the flood happened?

As for that "Most flooded in the nation" chart. Just how old is it?
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Most of the flood control frog ponds were in place in the '84 having already been constructed by the engineers of one of Tulsa outstanding firms.   The drainage system stops into a concrete low water dam a half mile north of Pine Street some four miles short of exiting into Bird Creek.

The article on the most flooded cities is filed with much information and pictures that is not readily available at this time.
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Recycle quoted:

And yes, shadows, other cities still have stormwater programs. In fact, most do. It is part of the responsibility of keeping a city safe.
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Could you cite those cities where the frog pond concept of flood control has been installed?

Ask Charles or Mike if the city is safe if a flood of the '84 magnitude happened today.

[RecycleMichael]

How many is enough to convince you?

Minneapolis
http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/stormwater/fee/Stormwater_FAQ.asp

http://www.charlestoncounty.org/index2.asp?p=/departments/PublicWorks/StormwaterFee.htm

http://www.florida-stormwater.org/manual/chapter5/5-2.html

http://projects.ch2m.com/semswa/fees.htm

http://www.co.dekalb.ga.us/stormwater/index.html

Kansas City
http://www.kcmo.org/water.nsf/web/swordinances?opendocument

Louisville
http://www.ci.louisville.co.us/PublicWorks/stormwater.htm

http://www.takomaparkmd.gov/publicworks/stormwater.html

http://www.moline.il.us/departments/public_works/stormwater_utility.asp

San Antonio
http://www.saws.org/service/rates/stormwater_fee.shtml

[TheArtist]

Originally posted by shadows


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Most of the flood control frog ponds were in place in the '84 having already been constructed by the engineers of one of Tulsa outstanding firms.

Most of the flood control areas I have seen were built after 84. I found this old report from the early 1990's. It mentions that many projects wont be finished until 1996 and I know that there have been many more done after that. Heck they just finished one in the pearl district this year with 2 more larger retention ponds to be built later. I know that those soccer fields off of 169 (they are for flood control) are later than the 80s. And there are others like that around town even newer.

http://www.smartcommunities.ncat.org/pubs/harmsway/overview.shtml

http://www.smartcommunities.ncat.org/pubs/harmsway/garden.shtml

http://www.smartcommunities.ncat.org/pubs/harmsway/concl.shtml

[cannon_fodder]

Add Waterloo, Iowa to the list of cities that use that method of flood control.
- - -

To be sure no city is 'flood proof.'  But Tulsa has done a good enough job that it isnt a real threat.  Las Vegas could flood too, but it just isnt that likely.

Shadow, since you usually just lie about things instead of looking them up; I would like to see data that supports your "we haven't gotten as much rain" claim.  

It seems funny to me that before the flood control measures were put in place we got so much rain every 3 or 4 years that the city flooded... after the flood control we haven't had that much rain for a couple of decades.  I call bologna.

[shadows]

After reading through the postings on the flooding on the flooding in Tulsa it seems that we are talk about different things.   The question was what other cities are using the frog pond concept to controlling thousands of acre feet of water that is primary in the Mingo basin of 61 square miles.  

Yes Virginia there is a Santa Clause.  The cities were given federal aid to create more bureaucrats to insure that the contaminated flood waters were processed before exiting them into the main streams. [Tulsa has that problem with part of its water supply]
 
Certain area's before being developed were noted for its floods already.  As the developments were made in those basin there was an increase from the increase of the impervious areas that added to the inflow into the basin over eight times the nature designated out flow.

They dug a 65 acre Pork Chop detention pond and the dirt was deposited in the downstream flood way thus the retention value of the frog pond was zero.

As one can read the Tulsa answer suggest that the flood control design was for a 1% yearly flood but that due to the geographical location of the city floods of greater magnitude could be expected.

Tulsa does not have a dust storm each year, nor a tornado in December nor rainfall great enough to spawn a major flood but the flood of '84 was on the chance of 20% of rain fall.

The resent filling of the Mingo floodway has decreased its outflow capacity by possible 50%.

The greatest improvement to positive flood control has been the removal of the building in the flood plain with the insurance money paid for by the owners of the buildings.  

Being one sitting on the razors edge in the city of birth, taking the side of the working poor, with 20,000 to 50,000 Immigrants, [city hall can't determine how many] where there is two or three or more shooting each week, I am accused of lying for pointing out the inequities of a small city wanting to be a big city.    

All the directives posted of other cities that are goanna use the federal money to develop a flood control system seems to be eaten up by the desk jockeys before the flood control begins.      

The question still remains "what other cities have used the frog pond concept to retain the flood waters?   We are #1?

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder



Shadow, since you usually just lie about things instead of looking them up; I would like to see data that supports your "we haven't gotten as much rain" claim.  

It seems funny to me that before the flood control measures were put in place we got so much rain every 3 or 4 years that the city flooded... after the flood control we haven't had that much rain for a couple of decades.  I call bologna.

You ignored my question.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by shadows

The resent filling of the Mingo floodway has decreased its outflow capacity by possible 50%.

Ignoring the spelling, I think math skills are also not one of your strengths.

Do you have any of them numbers used to make such a statement available to share with us?

[Lister]

quote:Originally posted by graceinwa

Thank you so much you have all been so helpful.  We are planning a trip out there in late September I will take all your advice and check it out.  We don't have jobs lined up we would like to to start a contracting business and possibly other businesses that's why we want growth potential.

Grace

A EXCELLENT website for job searches:

Indeed.com

Good luck!

[rwarn17588]

The suggestion that "we haven't gotten as much rain" in recent decades is wrong.

Check out the graphic with this archived article. It shows that Oklahoma has been above average in rainfall since the early 1980s.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=060226_Ne_A21_Oklah12372

[cannon_fodder]

Thanks for the link rwarn:



Apparently Shadow, you're wrong again.  Unless you can find data that indicates we got more heavy rainfall in brief periods before the flood control measures and then it stopped...

[shadows]

Didn't the weather bureau measure .25 inches of rainfall recently while the gages in south Tulsa registered 2.5 inches of rainfall.

The weather bureau can give one the data on rainfall in the Tulsa Area but there is a great difference to the rainfall in the Mingo Basin and the State of Oklahoma.

A thunder storm can form and dissipate over a small area as well as a cluster of thunder storms can form over a large area leaving a path of heavy rainfall.

Apparently CP cannot read the charts he wants to post.   Look up the charts on the CCC of the dry cycle in the '30's.  Read of the way the government stepped out to cover the soil and retain the rain water that fell along with wind breaks in the article.

The rainfall cycles seem to be two decades in completion.

Remember the small thunder storm that formed over 15th and Memorial that's down flow wipe out the church building.  

We are fortunate to have an ordinance that stops the storms that form to the west from entering the Tulsa city limits.  We can not stop the immigrants so at any time a storm might get through.  

[cannon_fodder]

[shadows]

Recycle;  I have pictures of before and after along with video tapes and copies of the pictures that Wolfe took from the chopper in the morning of the '84 flood.   Go to the bridge over the Mingo at Pine and look both ways then it is self evident it has been fill in during the dry cycle we may be just leaving.  Take a $1 dollar computer and feed into it the amount of acre feet that is produced in a 3 inch rainfall in three hours, less frog pond storage, compute the speed of the flow from the HEC reports of the corps, the capacity of the filled in flood way, then you can see if my math is wrong.      

[Conan71]

Wow, we are all being such great ambassadors for the city of Tulsa. [}:)]

Short answer: no we have not had any serious flooding other than occasional street flooding since the Memorial Day 1984 flood and when we had the Arkansas River flood of 1986.

Our recent rains have proven that the USACE has put into place better flood management techniques on their controlled water ways since the '86 flood.

I believe anything still pointing to Tulsa as being "most flooded" city would be pretty out of date.