Downtown Construction

[Johnboy976]

While we cannot manage to build any high-risers, at least we are making some progress downtown:

http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=112991

[Downtowner]

quote:Originally posted by Johnboy976

While we cannot manage to build any high-risers, at least we are making some progress downtown:

http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=112991

What bothers me about this construction is the project at Trinity Episcopal.  They are expanding their facility to feed more of the homeless which means more homeless on the streets of downtown. Many are working to improve downtown's image and this is not a step in the right direction.  The Mental Health Assoc has a program to address all issues of the homeless and disperse them throughout the city. By just feeding them we are allowing them to stay homeless with no desire or reason to better themselves. When they congregate they are more likely to remain in a homeless state.  To me it makes more sense for churches and charitable organizations to support the Mental Health Association's program which is a better plan for dealing with the homeless.  If churches want to continue to feed them they should do so in an area that keeps the homeless from moving back and forth through the core of downtown to get their next free meal.  Each evening the homeless are fed in Oakley Plaza. Will the City continue to let this happen when the BOK Center is completed?

[jdb]

quote:Originally posted by Downtowner

...When they congregate they are more likely to remain in a homeless state....

Your argument would be more persuasive if you didn't ladle all of the needy as back and forth bums.

The absence of compassion in your post, in which you come across as someone who has never been homeless, doesn't help either.

All it takes for most anyone to become homeless - overnight - is one big event, for churches to reach those people, they will also be dishing up grub for the other group.

There will always be bums, always has been, but not all homeless are bums.

jdb

[Downtowner]

quote:Originally posted by jdb

quote:Originally posted by Downtowner

...When they congregate they are more likely to remain in a homeless state....

Your argument would be more persuasive if you didn't ladle all of the needy as back and forth bums.

The absence of compassion in your post, in which you come across as someone who has never been homeless, doesn't help either.

All it takes for most anyone to become homeless - overnight - is one big event, for churches to reach those people, they will also be dishing up grub for the other group.

There will always be bums, always has been, but not all homeless are bums.

jdb

jdb, Sorry if you feel I came across as uncaring. I do care about the homeless that's why I want all of their needs met so they will no longer be homeless.  I never referred to them or thought of them as bums.  I only stated the facts about what is happening downtown and offered a solution that addresses both sides of the issue.

[jdb]

All I am saying, for your consideration, is that the post would be more persuasive without the undertones of lumping and uncaring.

I assume you do care and that's why I chimed in.

There are two groups:
The down-and-out that want a helping hand to get a leg up, and the bums who want free stuff.

Any argument that doesn't make this distinction loses my attention.

Of course I make more than my share of post that read as lumping and uncaring so what do I know? jdb

[PonderInc]

By the way, from talking to a volunteer at Iron Gate, the new facility will allow them to better serve the homeless population they have right now.  They aren't trying to create more homeless people (I won't become homeless just because they are willing to feed me if I do), they just want to have the space to better serve the current people who seek their services.

I have a hard time arguing with this logic, even though I am not particularly fond of the new addition or the loss of the Tulsa Auto Hotel and the ever-increasing loss of downtown density.

Question: do any of our surrounding communities/suburbs offer services for the homeless?  Or are they content to let their citizens come downtown to Tulsa for basic needs?  For example, Owasso is jam-packed with churches.  Do any of them offer services to the down-and-out?  Or do they just build large, glistening gymnasiums to lure the middle class?  I figure the homeless have to come from somewhere...and if the problem were addressed regionally (there's that word that is used whenever the 'burbs want a piece of the pie...), we wouldn't have to shoulder so much of the burden here in downtown.

[aoxamaxoa]

quote:Originally posted by Downtowner

quote:Originally posted by Johnboy976

While we cannot manage to build any high-risers, at least we are making some progress downtown:

http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=112991

What bothers me about this construction is the project at Trinity Episcopal.  They are expanding their facility to feed more of the homeless which means more homeless on the streets of downtown. Many are working to improve downtown's image and this is not a step in the right direction.  The Mental Health Assoc has a program to address all issues of the homeless and disperse them throughout the city. By just feeding them we are allowing them to stay homeless with no desire or reason to better themselves. When they congregate they are more likely to remain in a homeless state.  To me it makes more sense for churches and charitable organizations to support the Mental Health Association's program which is a better plan for dealing with the homeless.  If churches want to continue to feed them they should do so in an area that keeps the homeless from moving back and forth through the core of downtown to get their next free meal.  Each evening the homeless are fed in Oakley Plaza. Will the City continue to let this happen when the BOK Center is completed?

Jesus wept when he saw this....

[Downtowner]

quote:Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

quote:Originally posted by Downtowner

quote:Originally posted by Johnboy976

While we cannot manage to build any high-risers, at least we are making some progress downtown:

http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=112991

What bothers me about this construction is the project at Trinity Episcopal.  They are expanding their facility to feed more of the homeless which means more homeless on the streets of downtown. Many are working to improve downtown's image and this is not a step in the right direction.  The Mental Health Assoc has a program to address all issues of the homeless and disperse them throughout the city. By just feeding them we are allowing them to stay homeless with no desire or reason to better themselves. When they congregate they are more likely to remain in a homeless state.  To me it makes more sense for churches and charitable organizations to support the Mental Health Association's program which is a better plan for dealing with the homeless.  If churches want to continue to feed them they should do so in an area that keeps the homeless from moving back and forth through the core of downtown to get their next free meal.  Each evening the homeless are fed in Oakley Plaza. Will the City continue to let this happen when the BOK Center is completed?

Jesus wept when he saw this....

That is not fair. I in no way proposed that we NOT feed the homeless only that we do it in a way that addresses ALL of the issues keeping them in a homeless state.  Also in a way that makes downtown more livable for everyone. Do you live downtown?  Have you been threatened by a homeless person?  I do and I have.  Sorry if anyone misunderstood my post but that's a problem we have with Internet communication.

[Johnboy976]

Alright, alright... we get it... Downtowner's statement may not have been thought over adequately enough. He clarified, so let's drop it!

As far I can tell (and from my experience of serving the homeless at Trinity on several occassions over the years), the new building has been needed for a while. I am not doubting the fact that they are just building to meet demand.

As a note, I believe that this is a great idea (I am not under the impression that Downtowner would have a problem with the reasons behind it). Frankly, you've got 80 churches with building projects, and maybe one focusing on outreach to the public (let alone the poor). I may not agree with the beliefs of Trinity, but some of this particular program shows a heart for the world that conservatives need to learn from.

While there is a legitemately sound argument in the idea of "cleaning up" downtown, I am the kind of person who has more respect for a city that addresses for the social problems around them. Downtown needs to clean up its act, but it needs to start at the heart of the problem... those less fortunate than us.

Lastly, could you people start donating money to places such as John 3:16? Of course they need food... sending food is appreciated, but places such as John 3:16 are usually in connection with food banks that sell food to them at wholesale. ALSO... SEND WARM CLOTHES!!!! People may go hungry, but they also freeze to death. I remember serving with John 3:16... it was a cold winter, and clothes were in very VERY short demand.

[Downtowner]

I'm in favor of any new construction in downtown as long as it's not at the mercy of an existing building.  I'm against any project that increases the homeless burden on downtown as we already have our share. The residences of downtown have the right to walk the streets of our neighborhood without fear just like any other citizen. Please consider the possibility of the homeless in your neighborhoods before judging me.

[TheArtist]

Where do the homeless stay?  Is there a shelter and is it near the Trinity church? Is there a program to help people get back on their feet near the Trinity Church?  Are there programs to help the mentally ill?

If not, where are those programs and why are they not all in one area so they can be effective and not have these people walk from place to place downtown for every meal?  If the program to help the mentally ill who are homeless, is not near the church, well...how better for that program to make sure people are getting their medications and therapy than to see them when they come to eat each day?  These programs should be together If the church does not have good ties to these programs they may exacerbate the problem not make it better.

[jdb]

quote:Originally posted by Downtowner

... Please consider the possibility of the homeless in your neighborhoods...

Most can't, even if they took the time to try.
No more than they can fathom living on zero lot lines.
I have to look, both ways, when walking out my front door to keep from bumping into people who are just walking down the sidewalk.

Hell, I still meet people that think homeless people only exist on film, or TV.

I would try to spin this back on topic...but I have no idea what the topic is.

Pop another beer, jdb

[TheArtist]

Ran across this article. Interesting read.  Sounds like Tulsa has been making progress but that there needs to be another concerted effort to help the chronically homeless.  Appears that there are several program to help the homeless but they are spread out and may not be effectively cooperating with each other, plus the shortage of housing and structured environment for these people is still lacking.  The article says there are average around 700 to 1000 chronically homeless people in Tulsa.  That doesnt count the newly homeless that usually get back on their feet in a short amount of time.

http://www.bigbuilderonline.com/industry-news.asp?sectionID=364&articleID=377916

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by inteller
the people downtown are bums.  the people that become homeless overnight get help from the red cross.

The Red Cross's function is immediate assistance (as opposed to long-term assistance).

This can mean someone who made it out of their burning home with literally only the clothing on their back can obtain enough new clothing to function the next day or so, but does not outfit them the rest of the year.  
It can mean covering a couple nights in a motel while new housing arrangements are made, or giving people a head start on quickly replacing destroyed documents like licenses and ID.  

It's a hand keeping your head above water long enough to gather your bearings and pick yourself up with your dignity relatively intact, but sometimes a crisis is so thorough that this isnt enough, though (say when you have suddenly lost your home, transportation and livelihood) and you require more than they have to give.

If relatives, local agencies or churches arent an option, that leaves the speedy response of the Federal Government to stand between you and becoming one of those bums.

[Johnboy976]

First United Methodist Church supports an organization that offers housing and food at the cost of working around the facility. It encourages a self-sustaining society. It has proven to help the homeless get back on the road to recovery. If there could be more organizations like that, we may actually see an improvement to some degree.