In Praise of Aunt Carrie!

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by si_uk_lon_ok

quote:Originally posted by Steve

Whether or not you agree with her position on nuclear power (I do), you have to give the lady credit for taking a stance and fighting for what she believed.  She wasn't/isn't in this for fame or fortune, but for the health and safety of current and future generations.  She sold or mortgaged nearly everything she had for money to fight a big corporation, something very few people would do, then or now.  She has integrity and honesty, and I thank her very much.

While I believe in standing for what you believe to be right, I think she made a dreadful mistake. For every clean nuclear power station that we build, we do not have to build a dirty carbon based fossil fuel power station. I believe the health and wellbeing of future generations will be damaged more by the impact of carbon emissions (global warming) than the side effects of the nuclear industry.
The construction of more nuclear power stations would have had a dramatic impact on reducing the emissions produced, so in a way the campaign to stop Black Fox and similar projects have done more to harm our planet than good.

The point of my comment is not whether she is right or wrong, but that she had the guts to stand up for what she believes, for the long haul, and that she risked everything at her disposal to do it.

Nuclear power plants are not as "clean" as some would believe, producing lethal waste products that take tens of thousands of years to decay.  I also think it is important that nearly all accidents at nuclear power plants have been caused by human error.  There is no way to eliminate that element.  The potential damage from an accident at a nuclear plant is a million times greater that the potential threats from fossil fuel plants.

What we really should be doing is decreasing consumption, encouraging conservation, wind and water power, and getting people to quit using so much damn energy, especially we spoiled, wasteful U.S. residents.

[okiebybirth]

I think she got a big boost in defeating the project because the power was purportedly going to be sold to Texas, I think around the Dallas area.  Whether that was true or not, I remember that being told to me.  If the power was meant to be used for Northeast Oklahoma, you have to wonder if people may have been more behind it?

[moosedaddy]

I live in Inola and would have welcomed Blackfox.  Where I live now I would be less than ten miles to the power plant, I would also probably be working there making a lot more money than I am making now.  Besides that my kids would be attending the richest school district in the state.

[SXSW]

Oklahoma, according to the article, is 5th in the nation in wind power generators being installed.  That's a great statistic and it would be great to see at least over half of our state's power output come from either wind or hydroelectric energy in the next decade.

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by moosedaddy

I live in Inola and would have welcomed Blackfox.  Where I live now I would be less than ten miles to the power plant, I would also probably be working there making a lot more money than I am making now.  Besides that my kids would be attending the richest school district in the state.

In my opinion, this comment speaks volumes for how screwed up society and our priorities have become.  Who cares about the radioactive waste, just ship it off to Colorado or Idaho.  Out of sight, out of mind.  Who cares about the safety issues and potential threats to lives of large populations, as long as I have a fat paycheck and my kids go to a cushy luxury school with NFL-quality atheletic facilities.  Tell that to the thousands of Chernobyl victims.  And the previous poster was correct, the power from Black Fox was to be primarily sold out of state.  If Texas needs more electricity, let them build their own nuclear plants.

[sgrizzle]

The "power would've been sold to texas" comment shows a lack of understanding of how our electric grid works. It's like complaining because the petroleum refined here is burned in out-of-state cars. Sure, at the time, demand was higher in texas but the $$$ is in generation. Then, once demand raised in Oklahoma, they would have used more from Black Fox. Or maybe you missed the part where PSO is starting up three generation projects in Oklahoma right now. Whereas we could've been raking in the profits off of that capacity for decades.

Ralph Nader stood up for what he believed in and he killed a car which would've made a huge POSITIVE impact in current automotive design.

Go team!

[okieinla]

quote:Originally posted by SXSW

Oklahoma, according to the article, is 5th in the nation in wind power generators being installed.  That's a great statistic and it would be great to see at least over half of our state's power output come from either wind or hydroelectric energy in the next decade.

That's great news! Probably a "stinky" job, but Methane Gas is a renewable energy option as well.
Attachment is from the EPA website.

http://www.epa.gov/methane/index.html

[moosedaddy]

The Chernobyl comment tells me how uninformed most people are around here.  There are no nuclear power plants of that design in the United States.  Also the waste (spent fuel rods) are stored on site until they can be safely shipped, and why not store the waste in an underground mine hundreds of feet underground.

[okieinla]

Originally posted by moosedaddy

The Chernobyl comment tells me how uninformed most people are around here.  There are no nuclear power plants of that design in the United States.  Also the waste (spent fuel rods) are stored on site until they can be safely shipped, and why not store the waste in an underground mine hundreds of feet underground.


The much opposed underground storage area is already underway in Nevada. All of this Nuclear Power plant business just seems like a big accident waiting to happen - Three Mile Island? Leakage from underground storage into some water supply years down the line is another concern.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by okieinla

Originally posted by moosedaddy

The Chernobyl comment tells me how uninformed most people are around here.  There are no nuclear power plants of that design in the United States.  Also the waste (spent fuel rods) are stored on site until they can be safely shipped, and why not store the waste in an underground mine hundreds of feet underground.


The much opposed underground storage area is already underway in Nevada. All of this Nuclear Power plant business just seems like a big accident waiting to happen - Three Mile Island? Leakage from underground storage into some water supply years down the line is another concern.

Dozens of people are hurt and/or killed in power plants around the world every day and you want to quote a power plant that shutdown with no injuries and no fatalities?

[okieinla]

Dozens of people are hurt and/or killed in power plants around the world every day and you want to quote a power plant that shutdown with no injuries and no fatalities?
[/quote]

There was still an accident & a very expensive clean up. I wouldn't want to live there or close by for that matter.
There is a documentary that was made in 1993 called "Three Mile Island Revisited". Here's a brief excerpt -
"...Through the testimony of area residents and scientific experts, the documentary presents compelling evidence that cancer deaths and birth defects increased in the area surrounding the Pennsylvania plant. The video reveals that the utility which owns the nuclear plant has been quietly awarding damages to hundreds of local residents who have brought suits, despite its insistence that no one was harmed..."

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by okieinla

Originally posted by moosedaddy

The Chernobyl comment tells me how uninformed most people are around here.  There are no nuclear power plants of that design in the United States.  Also the waste (spent fuel rods) are stored on site until they can be safely shipped, and why not store the waste in an underground mine hundreds of feet underground.


The much opposed underground storage area is already underway in Nevada. All of this Nuclear Power plant business just seems like a big accident waiting to happen - Three Mile Island? Leakage from underground storage into some water supply years down the line is another concern.

Dozens of people are hurt and/or killed in power plants around the world every day and you want to quote a power plant that shutdown with no injuries and no fatalities?

About ten years after the defeat of Black Fox an executve with PSO told me it was a blessing. He asserted the numbers never added up and it would have been a money loser. They knew that but continued to fight for it as they knew it eventually would be the future of power and they wanted to set a precedent. He seemed to think the ratepayers would have bailed it out.

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by moosedaddy

The Chernobyl comment tells me how uninformed most people are around here.  There are no nuclear power plants of that design in the United States.  Also the waste (spent fuel rods) are stored on site until they can be safely shipped, and why not store the waste in an underground mine hundreds of feet underground.

I don't care if the Chernobyl plant was a 1956 design or a 2006 design, and if there are no plants of this design in the U.S. is not important.  The facts are that the Chernobyl disaster was caused foremost by human error, not by plant design.  Nuclear plants today may be highly computerized and automated, but computers are programmed by human beings and operated by human beings, and humans are subject to mistakes.  The consequences are much too great for me to ever accept a nuclear power facility in Oklahoma.

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

The "power would've been sold to texas" comment shows a lack of understanding of how our electric grid works. It's like complaining because the petroleum refined here is burned in out-of-state cars. Sure, at the time, demand was higher in texas but the $$$ is in generation. Then, once demand raised in Oklahoma, they would have used more from Black Fox. Or maybe you missed the part where PSO is starting up three generation projects in Oklahoma right now. Whereas we could've been raking in the profits off of that capacity for decades.

Ralph Nader stood up for what he believed in and he killed a car which would've made a huge POSITIVE impact in current automotive design.

Go team!

Conventional electricity generation and petroleum refining does pose some risks to the employees and the enviornment, but not close to the risks involved with nuclear power generation.  I couldn't care less if gasoline refined in Tulsa is burned in a car in New York.  The risks are not the same as those with nuclear power.  Your comment suggests that the risks be damned, if the potential $$$ are good.  PSO does not exist to make $$$ but to provide safe, reliable electric power to the citizens of Oklahoma, with a reasonable profit guaranteed a utility monopoly.  We have done just fine since 1973 without Black Fox, and I believe we will do just fine for the long term future in Oklahoma without a nuclear plant.

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by Steve

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

The "power would've been sold to texas" comment shows a lack of understanding of how our electric grid works. It's like complaining because the petroleum refined here is burned in out-of-state cars. Sure, at the time, demand was higher in texas but the $$$ is in generation. Then, once demand raised in Oklahoma, they would have used more from Black Fox. Or maybe you missed the part where PSO is starting up three generation projects in Oklahoma right now. Whereas we could've been raking in the profits off of that capacity for decades.

Ralph Nader stood up for what he believed in and he killed a car which would've made a huge POSITIVE impact in current automotive design.

Go team!

Conventional electricity generation and petroleum refining does pose some risks to the employees and the enviornment, but not close to the risks involved with nuclear power generation.  I couldn't care less if gasoline refined in Tulsa is burned in a car in New York.  The risks are not the same as those with nuclear power.  Your comment suggests that the risks be damned, if the potential $$$ are good.  PSO does not exist to make $$$ but to provide safe, reliable electric power to the citizens of Oklahoma, with a reasonable profit guaranteed a utility monopoly.  We have done just fine since 1973 without Black Fox, and I believe we will do just fine for the long term future in Oklahoma without a nuclear plant.

I don't think the risks to the environment of continued fossil fuel power stations can even be quantified. While nuclear power did lead to Chernobyl, a soviet era human error, continued fossil fuel burning is likely to lead to the loss of south pacific islands, Bangladesh and thousands of square miles of other low lying areas as well as levels of climate change we can't even fathom.

Nuclear power is the cheap reliable clean energy we ahve been looking for. If we want to become a greener society we will end up using more electricity to power things such as cars or create hydrogen as an alternative fuel source. This move away from petrol would be meaningless if we continue to generate power from dirty sources.