What does Tulsa need?

[pmcalk]

There has been much discussion lately, between the Channels, the east end, etc.... about the need for Tulsa to lure in more young people.  I am not disagreeing with that statement, but I think it does need to be explored further.  Specifically, I have a few questions, thoughts:

1.  People say that college grads look for a cool city first, before the job.  But I never heard a good explanation about what college grads consider "cool."  Is it the number of bars?  The local music scene?  Or is it even definable?  When I was in school (sooo many moons ago), Seattle was the place to be.  I knew of so many people trying to get a job there.  But when I questioned people why they wanted to move there, no one really had a good response.  Obviously the environment helped.  But it certainly wasn't the space needle, or any one thing that made Seattle "cool."  IMO, part of the "coolness" was simply attributable to other fads--its cool cuz everyone says its cool.  Can you really create a "cool" city, or does it just happen?

2.  Many have said that college grads choose cities first, then look for jobs.  Yet I have never seen anyone back that up with any statistics.  It may be true, but I would like some proof of that.  Back to Seattle, as much as people wanted to move there, I knew no one who moved there without a job.  Of course, if your cool and you have jobs, then you're going to be a top choice.

3.  I wonder how many people ultimately stay in those cool cities for long periods.  I for one lived for many years in a (semi) cool city, but as soon as I had kids, I wanted to leave.  I don't question that we need to attract young people, but shouldn't we also be a "life-cycle" type city?  If we attracted young people, but they left after 10 years, where would we be?

Just some thoughts to discuss.  Similar issues have been brought up elsewhere, but I thought it needed its own topic.

[waterboy]

My first instincts about you were correct. Glad someone else has seen the failed logic in the "get the YP's with cool stuff" argument. I think it makes a tasty argument but lacks merit. Quality jobs are the key.

What Tulsa needs? An understanding that each demographic is important in its own way and each must have its needs met or we lose their contribution of skills and knowledge. We need consensus.

[Chicken Little]

I can speak to this because I, in fact, used to be cool.  Then some things happened and now that's all history.[xx(]

I was at the Cain's on a Tuesday a while back along with 1,500 cool kids and it struck me.  Or rather, I remembered.  The remodel is great and all, but even if it were still a lackluster dump, the fact that it draws 1,500 kids on a Tuesday makes it cool...very cool.

You don't build a cool town, you grow it organically.  But instead of manure, you feed it lots of young people.  All the hip towns have 'em:  Seattle, Austin, Minneapolis, etc.

And that, in fact, is our big chicken and egg problem.  That's why Brunoflipper's "grow OSU-Tulsa to 25K kids" idea is probably the only "magic bullet" solution that makes any sense, and perhaps the only one we need.  Each of those towns have huge state schools.  If Tulsa could fix that, the cool would take care of itself, and so will the jobs.

I appreciate what you are saying about "life-cycle" cities, but we definitely don't have one now.  Too many of our kids shoot out of this town like a rocket, they get established somewhere else, and they never look back.  Besides Tulsans, I think only reptiles let their young wander off like that.

More to your point, I think most kids actually do try hard to stay on in those hip towns after they graduate.  They use their existing social networks to land that first big job.  From there on, its marriage, kids, and the 'burbs...but they stay in town.

If your point about life cycles is really more a political one, i.e., we shouldn't try to appeal to this 'creative class' because they are different and we are superior, or something, then I guess I disagree.  In fact, I think that's baloney.  I saw something like this on Batesline last week.    

Generally speaking, we uncool geezers know how to get what we want, and we don't particularly demand that much anyway.  Its the kids that are the tough customers and we really need to work on improving things for them so that they can happily transition into adulthood, right here in Tulsa.  Consider it the last step in the nurturing process.

[TheArtist]

Most of my acquaintances and friends who live in other cities, well just think Tulsa is very small town but has some suprising aspects to it, doesn't have a lot to do in it and yes doesn't have the educational institutions that they need to further their careers.  

Small town, suprising aspects...    I can probably sum this up with one example.  Downtown.  Wow look at the neat skyscrapers, wow look at how empty it is and all those parking lots. And almost see them think.  Has potential, but I am young want to enjoy that urban city life now, don't want to live in "potential".

Doesn't have a lot to do in it...  Tulsa is getting better and yes we can point to different areas and things to do.  But its like most of those things are small time.  Museums, Philbrook is nice, one thing I have heard several people say after I have given them the tour, Is that it?  Shopping, Utica Square is decent but can't begin to compare to The Plaza in KC or other shopping destinations in those "cool" cities.  Antiquing or Art Gallery hopping.  Sad here too.  Clubbing.. Decent but nothing to write home about lol.  Concerts.. 3rd rate at best and rare. Restaurants... decent variety but why do they all close so early? How sad is it on a Saturday or especially Sunday night when a visitor is in town and you want to find a place to eat around 10 or so after a movie or just before going out. Dennys anyone?  I have a friend who has never visited Tulsa before who lives in Cali, he is coming to visit next weekend.  Did a search to find out what was going on, Looks like Octoberfest and we are getting tickets for Rocky Horror Show.  Will do my best to show him the town, will let ya know what he thinks.

Doesn't have the educational opportunities.  Think that one is self explanitory.  Plus, as has been mentioned before, having a great College campus and graduate university would go a long way to adding to the youthfulness and attractions in the city.

What does Tulsa need?  Pretty much a generation of growth.  Most of the cities like Seattle and KC have about 50 years on us.  50years of growing their universities, attractions, evolving, infill, and creating an interesting critical mass of all those things.  Lets keep nurturing those things that we prize in our city and we will get there.    


Oh, and one other thing. If I had a dime for everytime I have heard someone from out of town say something like.  Why haven't you people done anything with the river? or, Where is the water?  I could probably build the Channels lol.

[pmcalk]

I did not in anyway intend to imply that we shouldn't appeal to the creative class, or the young people.  I just meant that I think its bad policy to put all of your eggs in one basket.  It would be great to have a wonderful, creative class of young people in Tulsa.  But, if they get married, have kids and find that 1) the schools are horrible, and 2) they'll never make above minimun wage, chances are they will move away.  I just hope we can focus on various stages of people's life, not just one.  And, by the way, one of the reason places like south Florida and New Mexico are growing so rapidly is because they cater to old people.  Maybe Tulsa could become the coolest retirement community.

I agree with CL's comment about college being the solution.  If you get large groups of kids living together for four years, they'll figure out how to make things cool.  It's in their blood.

But we also need good schools and good jobs to keep people here.

[soloriter]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

I agree with CL's comment about college being the solution.  If you get large groups of kids living together for four years, they'll figure out how to make things cool.  It's in their blood.

But we also need good schools and good jobs to keep people here.

And if you get large groups of *educated* kids living together for four years, with possibly a larger number of graduates staying here to raise a family, my guess (hope) is you'll not only see cool happening, but also increased activism and support for K-12 educational improvements.  

As for jobs, I would think those could also benefit from raising the average education level of the population--perhaps more entrepreneurial types sticking around and starting new businesses, for one thing.

Interesting to look at comparative educational demographics from the 2000 census, for what it's worth:

Tulsa:
Population 25 & older: 253,054 (64% of total pop.)
High school degree 25.3%
Some college 30.8%
Bachelor's 19.1%
Grad  degree  9.2%

OKC
Population 25 & older: 323,219  (64% of total pop.)
High school degree 26.3%
Some college 31.2%
Bachelor's 15.9%
Grad  degree  8.1%


Seattle:
Population 25 & older:  409,582  (73% of total pop.)
High school degree 15.3%
Some college 27.0%
Bachelor's 29.9%
Grad  degree  17.3%

Denver:
Population 25 & older:  374,478  (68% of total pop.)
High school degree 20%
Some college 24.4%
Bachelor's 22.1%
Grad  degree  12.1%


Austin:
Population 25 & older:  401,137  (61% of total pop.)
High school degree 16%
Some college 26%
Bachelor's 25.7%
Grad  degree  14.7%

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

What Tulsa needs? An understanding that each demographic is important in its own way and each must have its needs met or we lose their contribution of skills and knowledge. We need consensus.

Bingo! We have a winner.

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

What Tulsa needs? An understanding that each demographic is important in its own way and each must have its needs met or we lose their contribution of skills and knowledge. We need consensus.

Bingo! We have a winner.

Dang and I was thinking the answer was a downtown polo stadium to attract a rich crowd.

[tulitlikeitis]

This is really not all that hard. You cannot make something "cool." You must have the necessary surrounding and it becomes "cool."

This pattern has been repeated in countless cities and it always, and I mean always starts with high paying, quality corporate jobs downtown ... or very near town. These jobs are for analysts, investment bankers, researchers, corporate headquarter types and the like. These are jobs that pay six figures and are usually at corporate headquarters, large law firms, investment banks etc. These people move downtown because they don't want the long commute to their jobs. As they move downtown and near downtown they are accompanied by the inevitable BMW dealerships, trendy restaurants and the like. As this progresses, demand for downtown living increases and suddenly condos and townhouses downtown cost 500k$ and up. All of a sudden downtown is "cool."

Snag the corporate headquarters and similar companies and you will get the movement downtown that you want. Without it you are p***ing in the wind.

[Hometown]

I've had one year now to think about what Tulsa needs.  Here's my conclusion:

Tulsa needs more internal competition.  We don't have enough internal competition now and it has allowed Tulsans to grow lazy and soft.

p.s.  Kids want a mate and a career.  That's why I left at 21.  The distortion of $1 million homes in the Bay Area caused me to cash out and return to Tulsa.

[waterboy]

What do you mean by "internal competition"?

[Hometown]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

What do you mean by "internal competition"?

Not city to city competition but competition within Tulsa.  This bakery competing with those bakeries.  That furniture store competiting with a host of other furniture stores.  An intellectual, like you for example, being challenged by many other intellectuals instead of growing comfortable knowing that few of your neighbors have your intellectual grasp.

Let's say you're a decent bakery.  You have a captive audience because of the lack of viable alternatives.

When we first came back to Tulsa we made a concerted effort to find the best bakery in town.  We were really disappointed.  Everyone is still making the same tired layers cakes that they were making when I grew up here.  The only bakery we found that got close to the quality of the Bay Area bakeries was Queenies.  We basically didn't have anywhere else to go.  Now, as wonderful as Queenies is, the cakes we have bought there have been slightly flawed.  One had fallen.  But we didn't have a real alternative so the next time we wanted a cake we returned to Queenies.  If we were in the Bay Area we would have had seven or eight choices with comparable quality.  That kind of competition keeps you on your toes.

If you have a decent product in Tulsa you probably have a captive audience, so you don't have to grow or improve or be the best that you can be.  You can get by with a lot less.

Now, the flip side of this issue is that Tulsa's softness is certainly part of Tulsa's relaxed lifestyle.

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

What do you mean by "internal competition"?

Not city to city competition but competition within Tulsa.  This bakery competing with those bakeries.  That furniture store competiting with a host of other furniture stores.  An intellectual, like you for example, being challenged by many other intellectuals instead of growing comfortable knowing that few of your neighbors have your intellectual grasp.

Let's say you're a decent bakery.  You have a captive audience because of the lack of viable alternatives.

When we first came back to Tulsa we made a concerted effort to find the best bakery in town.  We were really disappointed.  Everyone is still making the same tired layers cakes that they were making when I grew up here.  The only bakery we found that got close to the quality of the Bay Area bakeries was Queenies.  We basically didn't have anywhere else to go.  Now, as wonderful as Queenies is, the cakes we have bought there have been slightly flawed.  One had fallen.  But we didn't have a real alternative so the next time we wanted a cake we returned to Queenies.  If we were in the Bay Area we would have had seven or eight choices with comparable quality.  That kind of competition keeps you on your toes.

If you have a decent product in Tulsa you probably have a captive audience, so you don't have to grow or improve or be the best that you can be.  You can get by with a lot less.

Now, the flip side of this issue is that Tulsa's softness is certainly part of Tulsa's relaxed lifestyle.

The Bay Area also has over 8 million people, and along with good food comes horrible traffic congestion, an astronomical cost of living, and generally a less friendly population that is too busy to really care about anyone but themselves. Actually, most of the cool creative people that I knew there have all moved somewhere else that is more affordable and liveable.

I'll take Tulsa (with its very good food choices BTW) any day. We should all be careful what we wish for in regards to Tulsa.

[aoxamaxoa]

An enema?

[Chicken Little]

Here's a good WaPo story about the handful of "Brain-gain" cities that are pulling away from the rest of us in a knowledge-based economy.  The usual suspects, btw:  Seattle, Austin, Atlanta, Boston, Denver, Minneapolis, San Diego, San Francisco, Washington, and Raleigh and Durham, N.C.

Exerpts:

quote: Long is part of an elite intercity migration that is rapidly remaking the way American cities rise and fall. In the 2000 Census, demographers found what they describe as a new, brain-driven, winner-take-all pattern in urban growth.

"A pack of cities is racing away from everybody else in terms of their ability to attract and retain an educated workforce," said Bruce Katz, director of the Center on Urban and Metropolitan Policy at the Brookings Institution. "It is a sobering trend for cities left behind."...

...The rising tide of well-schooled talent has created a self-reinforcing cycle. Newcomers such as Sam Long have made a handful of cities richer, more densely populated and more capable of squeezing wealth out of the next big thing that a knowledge-based economy might serve up....

...Among the country's 100 largest metro areas, the 25 that entered the 1990s with the largest share of college graduates had, by the end of the decade, sponged up graduates at twice the rate of the other 75 cities, according to a Brookings analysis of the census...

We aren't making stuff like we used to.  The real growth in this country is coming in the service sector and in research in techology.

There's a small, but important, reference to venture capital.  In an indirect way, this is what the Stakeholders $100 million is.

But contrast this investment with what Bill Gates and Paul Allen are doing with similar amounts of money in Seattle:

quote: The city's two richest residents -- with the backing of the University of Washington and enthusiastic help from the city and county governments -- are bankrolling a bet that could supercharge the local economy for decades to come. Seattle is already a leader in biotech, but lags far behind Boston and San Francisco.

Paul Allen has spent $225 million of his own money to close the gap -- fast. "You have to be ready to take advantage of the next big cycle," Allen said.

He said Seattle has strung together all the beads on that thread: a research university, a cooperative city government, lots of venture capital and "you have to be able to attract people. . . . That is just not a problem in Seattle."

In the past decade, Allen has bought 50 acres in downtown Seattle for a biotech research center. His company, Vulcan, is transforming a sterile stretch of parking lots, used-furniture stores and badly designed streets into what is expected to be the nation's largest urban life-science campus.

It will have the capacity to employ 20,000 scientists and technicians, according to Vulcan. If Allen's plan works, about 10,000 of them would live in a pedestrian neighborhood at the south end of the city's Lake Union, amid new restaurants, nightclubs and retail stores surmounted by apartments.

To help Seattle create a critical mass of biotech talent, Gates donated $70 million this spring to the University of Washington to build departments of genome science and bioengineering. For nearly a decade, Gates has used his money and his fame to recruit eminent biotech scientists from around the country.

"Gates and Allen are giving the city a real forward momentum," said Leroy Hood, whom Gates lured from the California Institute of Technology to start a biotechnology department at the University of Washington. "In 10 years, I think Boeing will be irrelevant to Seattle."

Think about the gravity of that last quote.  Seattle is arguably the biggest aerospace city in the world.  And these guys believe that they can make biotech even more important to Seattle in just 10 short years.

Is it that unreasonable to think that we couldn't use higher education spending to stake out our own little high-tech sector?  Its really too bad, because folks like the Stakeholders have enormous political clout, the kind of clout we need to take on the Board of Regents and create a massive state school in Tulsa.  They'd be the ideal candidates for a project like this, but they have chosen a different course.