Hispanic School for Tulsa

[TulsaFan-inTexas]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

I didn't know English was the official language of the U.S. No such recognition exists.

If we go with America's native language, it'd be Cherokee.

I think there are some Creeks, Navajo's, Shoshone's, Sioux, etc. who might argue that point with you rwarn. []

You can add the Chickasaw and Choctaw to that list.

[AVERAGE JOE]

Always interesting to me about cultures. If we go to Little Italy in any city, and a few old-timers are speaking Italian to each other, or the Italian mama is singing in Italian while stirring the gravy, it brings a smile to our face. Charming. [^]

Same with Greektown -- we just had our Greek Holiday festival in Tulsa this past weekend. Lots of dancing and wonderful food and more than a few thick accents.

Oktoberfest, anyone?

I can take you to towns back East where there are still old-timers speaking Russian, Polish, German, Greek, Italian, French, and Portugese at family gatherings.

But some kid working at McDonald's for minimum wage has a Spanish accent? Well, BY GAWD GIT THEM FERNERS OUTTA HERE!! [!]

Nothing has changed in over 100 years of immigration. The first generation to come over has a hard time with the language and holds on to a lot of the culture from back home. The second generation assimilates with a few bumps in the road. The third generation is as American as a Chevy with a trunkful of apple pie.

EDIT: Dangit, rwarn... you beat me to it. [|)]

[TulsaFan-inTexas]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

I think assimilation is a red herring, mainly because studies have shown that by the third generation of an immigrant family being in the United States, they speak English fluently and it's their preferred language.

And to target Hispanics for not assimilating is to conveniently ignore our country's immigrant history. In central Illinois, in a tiny little burg close to where I grew up, there were German immigrant families who could not / would not speak a word of English. Do you think there were folks in Chinatown in San Francisco or Chicago who didn't speak English? Of course.

Of course, their children and grandchildren did.

The same will happen here.

Funny, how come (at least) one-half of everything I read is not in German or Italian, but in Spanish? We ARE bending to the needs of this group of immigrants (the Latinos), and not the other way around.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

Interesting point, as long as you are working towards ASSIMILATION in language.  I have no problem teaching those who wish to assimilate, but if that is the case the ultimate end-game IS ENGLISH-ONLY...

In the end the Italian, French, Vietnamese, etc. all ended up speaking English after immigrating.  I don't remember reading where any of these groups asked for bilingual signage or ballots but I could be wrong.  Anyways, I hope that linguistic assimilation is the goal of the hispanic community.

I'd replace the word "assimilate" with "absorb" because our immigrants have influenced the language/slang/syntax of this country for generations, if not centuries... to use your terminology, I think the "ultimate end game" is American-only, not english-only.  I think our country in WWII was lucky to have GI's who could speak the language of the locals-- Italian, German, etc... too bad we don't have enough GI's who speak arabic to "win the war for hearts and minds" in Iraq these days.

Hmmm... it's been more than 2 posts since I've mentioned soccer...[]

When I've gone to Chicago Fire soccer games, I hear announcements in English/Spanish/Polish... somehow I'm not bothered by that.  If they're paying for tickets and keeping my favorite American soccer league in business, I'm happy.  Ah, the language of single-game ticket sales and concesions...

As for "In the end the Italian, French, Vietnamese, etc. all ended up speaking English after immigrating," this is once again an oversimplification of what's going on.  First generation adults are just never going to assimilate the way their second and third generation kids will.  That's just a simple fact.  It's hard to learn a to speak a language fluently when you're an adult.  I figure the second generation will be ashamed the first generation didn't speak better english.  And the third generation will be ashamed their parents abandoned their ethnicity to become a REAL American... just a social theory... not a political position...  

Oh, bilingual signage and ballots...
http://www.chicagoelections.com/English2004.htm

quote:The Chicago Election Board has numerous programs to provide language assistance to voters who primarily speak a foreign language.  By federal law, all ballots and voter instruction must be printed in Spanish and Chinese, in addition to English.

   In precincts with large numbers of Hispanic or Chinese voters, the Board attempts to place bilingual judges of election to provide verbal assistance.  If a bilingual judge is not available in a precinct, the voter or judges of election can call Election Central at 312-269-7870, where Board personnel versed in several languages – including Spanish, Chinese, Polish, Russian, Greek, German, Korean, and Serbian – are available to answer questions and provide assistance.

   In addition, every precinct polling place is provided with a Board publication entitled, "We Speak Your Language."  This booklet provides voter instruction in 15 languages, covering such topics as Qualifications for Voting; Locating a Polling Place; Applying for a Ballot; Voter Assistance; and How to Vote and Screen a Ballot.

   Various voter outreach programs are conducted in ethnic communities to encourage registration and provide language assistance.

[pmcalk]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Okay, now that we've completely drifted off topic, can someone please give a rational explaination why it is we no longer care if people immigrate legally, learn and speak our official language, and assimilate into our culture?

I find it very frustrating that people continue to assert the "my family came here legally, why can't yours?" argument.  Unless your family came here after the 1920s, or you are Chinese, there were no laws that would prevent you from entering the US.  In other words, everyone (again, except for the Chinese) was welcomed and legal.  No quotas.  No questions about where you came from.  No nothing, just come on over, and become a citizen (though we may have to send you to war first thing).  Even after the 1920s, most restrictions for immigration only applied to Eastern Europeans.

Now the doors have been shut, or at least greatly tightened.  Maybe that's a good thing.  But to argue your ancestors came to the US legally is a fallacious argument.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I didn't read anywhere in your link that Tontitown had an Itallian schoolhouse.  I'll bet ya a basket of Tontitown grapes, that the Itallian settlers spoke English when they spoke to their bosses at the Oklahoma mines or went over to Springdale or Siloam Springs to trade.  Tontitown was a lot like Krebs, basically another ghetto out on the range.  Around the ghetto, you observe your own culture and language.  Leave that enclave and you use the prevailing language.

First of all, get back to me when you can spell Italian.  Second, you confuse an Italian schoolhouse with my contention, that out of necessity, those kids had to learn how to talk to their parents in italian and also learn english... that's bilingual education, plain and simple, no matter how politically incorrect that concept is to the large number of ditto-head conservatives out there...

Once again, would these people's kids have been better served in a public school in which NOBODY spoke Italian???  And we live in a modern world in which reading/writing are now MORE important than ever before... "bosses" and "ghettos"???  I'm sorry, is this what you WANT for Tulsa?

quote:
There's nothing xenophobic about my post.  I'm fine with immigrants coming here so long as they respect our laws, language, and culture.

What do you mean by respecting the language and culture?  Should they speak english at all times?   Do they have your permision to listen to spanish-speaking radio stations or watch Univision or Telemundo?  Or should that be illegal???    

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia

quote:
Gangs of New York is a "dramatized" account of our history, not a factual document.

That film's historical context is MUCH closer to fact than your contention that other ethnic groups (including the Irish) just "assimilated" out of thin air... yeah, they just held hands and magically started singing "Yankee Doodle"?!?

quote:I think you would be hard-pressed to find another country that would be accepting of a bunch of American immigrants who refused to learn the local language and assimilate into their culture.  They would consider it arrogant and insulting.

How much do you know about "other countries"???  Are you fluent in a language other than english?  How hard was it to learn?  Did you have to constantly practice the language?  Did you feel like an idiot when you found out that though you thought you were fluent you still had no experiences with any slang, buzzwords, inside jokes, etc...?

quote:
Unless you don't live in Tulsa, it would be hard to miss the large Hispanic communities around Admiral & Lewis and out east off 21st St.

I don't currently live in Tulsa, but I've seen the growing number of hispanics around Executive Mall when I've visited... Tulsa's not very different from where I currently live... lotsa hispanics here in northern Illinois... maybe all you see is the neighborhood going to the dogs... maybe all you see is a buncha "illegals" who, in your english-only opinion, refuse to speak the language...

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Okay, now that we've completely drifted off topic, can someone please give a rational explaination why it is we no longer care if people immigrate legally, learn and speak our official language, and assimilate into our culture?

I find it very frustrating that people continue to assert the "my family came here legally, why can't yours?" argument.  Unless your family came here after the 1920s, or you are Chinese, there were no laws that would prevent you from entering the US.  In other words, everyone (again, except for the Chinese) was welcomed and legal.  No quotas.  No questions about where you came from.  No nothing, just come on over, and become a citizen (though we may have to send you to war first thing).  Even after the 1920s, most restrictions for immigration only applied to Eastern Europeans.

Now the doors have been shut, or at least greatly tightened.  Maybe that's a good thing.  But to argue your ancestors came to the US legally is a fallacious argument.

I think you misinterpreted my point, or maybe I just left it wide open.  The method of immigration back in the era you are speaking of was to come through a recognized port of entry, be documented, and proceed to observe our laws, find work, and contribute to our society.  People didn't sneak in under a fence or in the back of a semi truck as the preferred method of immigration back then.  If you needed charity, you went to the church or your ethnic community for hand-outs not the government.

I think many of you would be surprised at how much of a problem our generosity and lack of border security is.  I'm going to make two observations from the ground level:

We have had a sign out in front of our shop for a couple of weeks seeking help.  Monday, a Mexican National came in and applied.  Problem was, his last name didn't match on his social security card with his immigration documents and he didn't have a driver's license.

He re-appeared yesterday with a driver's license and a "corrected" social security card.

I'm trying to figure out how it took at least a couple of weeks for my wife to get her new social security card last year when we got married after having being on the rolls for 42 years, yet this guy can produce one in a matter of days??

Second experience- we had a Mexican National who worked for us who had a seizure on the way to work, crossed the centerline of I-44, and he hit another car.  He had refused our company health insurance coverage, didn't have liability insurance.  He took an ambulance to the hospital, overnight stay, etc.

A few months later, he was sued by the insurance company of the car he hit and collection firms for the hospital and EMSA.  Instead of having his wages garnisheed, he fled.  He will pop up again somewhere else.  

IOW- not all, but there are a good number of these people who don't observe the same laws and are only here to take something- not give back.  Had happened to you been in the other vehicle in the wreck I spoke of, you might view immigration a little different.

[USRufnex]

And what exactly, does any of that have to do with teaching both spanish and english in schools, the original subject of this thread?  [!]

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I didn't read anywhere in your link that Tontitown had an Itallian schoolhouse.  I'll bet ya a basket of Tontitown grapes, that the Itallian settlers spoke English when they spoke to their bosses at the Oklahoma mines or went over to Springdale or Siloam Springs to trade.  Tontitown was a lot like Krebs, basically another ghetto out on the range.  Around the ghetto, you observe your own culture and language.  Leave that enclave and you use the prevailing language.

First of all, get back to me when you can spell Italian.  Second, you confuse an Italian schoolhouse with my contention, that out of necessity, those kids had to learn how to talk to their parents in italian and also learn english... that's bilingual education, plain and simple, no matter how politically incorrect that concept is to the large number of ditto-head conservatives out there...

Once again, would these people's kids have been better served in a public school in which NOBODY spoke Italian???  And we live in a modern world in which reading/writing are now MORE important than ever before... "bosses" and "ghettos"???  I'm sorry, is this what you WANT for Tulsa?

quote:
There's nothing xenophobic about my post.  I'm fine with immigrants coming here so long as they respect our laws, language, and culture.

What do you mean by respecting the language and culture?  Should they speak english at all times?   Do they have your permision to listen to spanish-speaking radio stations or watch Univision or Telemundo?  Or should that be illegal???    

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia

quote:
Gangs of New York is a "dramatized" account of our history, not a factual document.

That film's historical context is MUCH closer to fact than your contention that other ethnic groups (including the Irish) just "assimilated" out of thin air... yeah, they just held hands and magically started singing "Yankee Doodle"?!?

quote:I think you would be hard-pressed to find another country that would be accepting of a bunch of American immigrants who refused to learn the local language and assimilate into their culture.  They would consider it arrogant and insulting.

How much do you know about "other countries"???  Are you fluent in a language other than english?  How hard was it to learn?  Did you have to constantly practice the language?  Did you feel like an idiot when you found out that though you thought you were fluent you still had no experiences with any slang, buzzwords, inside jokes, etc...?

quote:
Unless you don't live in Tulsa, it would be hard to miss the large Hispanic communities around Admiral & Lewis and out east off 21st St.

I don't currently live in Tulsa, but I've seen the growing number of hispanics around Executive Mall when I've visited... Tulsa's not very different from where I currently live... lotsa hispanics here in northern Illinois... maybe all you see is the neighborhood going to the dogs... maybe all you see is a buncha "illegals" who, in your english-only opinion, refuse to speak the language...

You are flaming for the sake of flaming and making gross assumptions of my beliefs.

What other posters have referred to about the language barrier in service industries has nothing to do with heavy accents, it's got to do with them not comprehending anything other than "hello" and "I'd like a number 4".

I actually find quite a bit of charm in the Mexican-owned and run businesses in the Whittier area.  I recognize that as being a hard-working and established part of the community.  I'm glad there are resources for Hispanic radio.  No, I don't expect any immigrant to renounce their heritage.  

You are trying to romanticize and trivialize our present immigration problem by invoking Hollywood productions like "Gangs Of New York."  Nowhere did I say that they magically were Americans overnight, nor would I ever ignore there were struggles.  

You fail to recognize that there are a good number of immigrants here who flat-donkey refuse to learn our language, respect our laws, and who exploit the generosity of our government.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

You are trying to romanticize and trivialize our present immigration problem by invoking Hollywood productions like "Gangs Of New York."  Nowhere did I say that they magically were Americans overnight, nor would I ever ignore there were struggles.  

You fail to recognize that there are a good number of immigrants here who flat-donkey refuse to learn our language, respect our laws, and who exploit the generosity of our government.

And there are also flat-donkey lazy rednecks who refuse to work or respect the law either... you know what they say about "a few bad apples."

I've been working next to the bilingual dept in a call center... so I hear co-workers who switch back-and-forth from spanish to english on a regular basis.  And I'd imagine if we'd get past all the talk about the minority of immigrants who "flat-donkey refuse to learn..." that Tulsa could get some of those jobs.  Jobs that go begging in many cities because public schools refuse to offer bilingual programs that would help second generation kids...

From the KOTV link:

quote:News on 6 anchor Terry Hood says San Miguel targets the Hispanic community that lives in Tulsa's Kendall-Whitter neighborhood School near Admiral and Atlanta.

The school started a few years back with this group of kids. Now, eight graders are on their way to becoming San Miguel's first graduates. Principal Curt Adams couldn't be happier with their progress. He says most of his students come to school 2-to-3 years behind where they should be.

[Jammie]

I've got to say that Conan makes some very good points here. The comment was made that there are a lot of Hispanics in southern Florida. If you went to the city data forum and read through many of the posts, you'd see that native Floridians are fleeing because they've been "taken over". I know that term isn't a welcome one, but it's the way those people are feeling.[]

I noticed that someone already caught the comment about Cherokee being the first language. It made me chuckle cause I was going to say that Lakota was the first language.[] But the fact is that I'm guessing the Cherokee have also learned English, as the Sioux have. We should all be welcome to be in America, but we do need to strive to do it legally. We also should fly the American flag and speak English. If we forced English on the people who were already here, why now should we need to learn a second language to accomodate those who are joining us in America?[?]

[rwarn17588]

Native Floridians? What are those?

I thought all Florida residents were from somewhere else.

Even the English-speaking ones.

[]

[Jammie]

Rwarn thanks for giving me a chuckle.[}:)] Actually, there are some native Floridians. My brother's wife was born and raised in Florida and still lives there. They live in central Fla., though.

[Markk]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

And what exactly, does any of that have to do with teaching both spanish and english in schools, the original subject of this thread?  [!]

The problem with relying on schools to teach English to those who don't speak it is that a teacher is not permitted to fail someone in an English course simply because the student can't speak it.  At least, that is what a teacher friend tells me.  If anyone can make sense out of that, I'd like to hear the explanation.  

BTW, I'm equally put off by vacant-eyed teens mumbling in English at a service counter, as I am by people who don't speak it at all.  Bash me all you want, but when I go to a service counter, I expect service and not blank stares because the person on the other side of the counter can't understand anything I'm saying.

[Jammie]

Mark, you won't get any bashing from me about that. They're very possibly taking a job away from an American-born, English speaking teen OR from a semi-retired person who'd love to make a few extra dollars to subsidize their social security checks. []