Tulsa Crime

[Denizen]

I wonder if statistics are skewed somewhat because they don't include the suburbs. In some places in Texas, I believe, more liberal annexation laws allow cities to take over newer, low crime areas that might be separately incorporated in Oklahoma.

[sauerkraut]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:What has changed in our schools since the 1970's?

A ton of things.  

1) I would point to a lack of parenting by many people.  Schools are not supposed to raise your kids, you are.  What happens at school doesn't stay at school.

2) Lack of enforcement.  I'm not advocating beating of children at school, but given that many parents don't care either why should a kid?  He can go to school knowing he can't get in real trouble there and go home and know they don't care either.

3) Everyone is a winner.  This shift in attitude has disrupted a decent pecking order in school.  No one can be a loser, everyone gets trophies, competition is bad.

Coupled with a social intolerance for any sort of conflict nothing gets worked out o the school yard anymore.  "Back in the day" Johnny would lip off to Billy, and someone would get popped.  End of it.  Now it festers for years and a gun gets brought in to the mix.

4) Tons of changed with the schools themselves too:  There is a stronger teachers union, so we can't fire teachers that are worthless.  Busing programs have mixed otherwise non-neighborhood kids together while self segregation has increased tension in other areas (not necessarily racial).  Too many parents have become whining little scabs who assume their kid is right and the teacher is wrong.  

Our response to any and all of this?  We've thrown money at it.  We have more money per pupal than ever before, and we are not getting the results.  

Bah, I had better end this somewhat tangential rant.
- - -

I do not believe because our schools are no longer indoctrinating children they have all turned into criminals.  It seems the 18 hours a day and the other 180 days of the year parents should be able to instill values into their children just as well as they always have.  Especially in the bible belt.

But alas, godless Portland has a lower crime rate and better schools than the buckle of the bible belt.  So there goes that theory.  Unless god hates Tulsa and loves Portland I'd there are serious flaws in that theory (and/or he's Catholic and that's why he favors El Paso).

Indeed, you bring up good points. When I was in school they used the paddle on us kids. I had a teacher in 8th grade that when the kids returned from lunch rowdy one day the teacher asked them to be quiet a few times, (the teacher was busy at her desk finishing up some work) the kids did not settle down until she brought out the paddle and banged it on her desk and she said "I'm on the war path today just try me I said be quiet" you could of heard a pin drop. Discipline is a big key in our schools.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

I had a teacher in 8th grade that when the kids returned from lunch rowdy one day the teacher asked them to be quiet a few times, (the teacher was busy at her desk finishing up some work) the kids did not settle down until she brought out the paddle and banged it on her desk and she said "I'm on the war path today just try me I said be quiet" you could of heard a pin drop. Discipline is a big key in our schools.

Sounds like my science teacher at Barnard Elementary, Mrs. Crain.  She kept the paddle on her desk.

I don't know what was worse back in school:  bending over and waiting to get the swats or the actual physical pain of them.  One of the principals at Jenks had a reputation of making even the hardest thugs come out of his office wiping tears off their cheeks.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

I had a teacher in 8th grade that when the kids returned from lunch rowdy one day the teacher asked them to be quiet a few times, (the teacher was busy at her desk finishing up some work) the kids did not settle down until she brought out the paddle and banged it on her desk and she said "I'm on the war path today just try me I said be quiet" you could of heard a pin drop. Discipline is a big key in our schools.

Sounds like my science teacher at Barnard Elementary, Mrs. Crain.  She kept the paddle on her desk.

I don't know what was worse back in school:  bending over and waiting to get the swats or the actual physical pain of them.  One of the principals at Jenks had a reputation of making even the hardest thugs come out of his office wiping tears off their cheeks.

Goodness, what kind of monster were you to get in trouble so often lol?

I never got in trouble. I was always the good little boy that sat in front, was teachers pet, had my homework held up as the example of how good work should look, and got perfect attendance. I still have the certificates to prove it [] lol. You were probably the thug that would pick on me on the playground or in the hallways.[B)]

[sauerkraut]

I think school paddling is banned just about all over the country now. It was used for over 100 years and worked fine. Lack of discipline is a big problem in our schools. Bad kids disrupt a class and the kids who want to learn can't.. I had a 7th grade Art teacher 4th hour, she was very attractive but she gave very hard swats, (as paddling was called in our school). This was in Michigan.. That must of been around 1968 or so. My Junior High School (today called a middle school) did alot of paddling, normally in front of the class.[B)]

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

I think school paddling is banned just about all over the country now. It was used for over 100 years and worked fine. Lack of discipline is a big problem in our schools. Bad kids disrupt a class and the kids who want to learn can't.. I had a 7th grade Art teacher 4th hour, she was very attractive but she gave very hard swats, (as paddling was called in our school). This was in Michigan.. That must of been around 1968 or so. My Junior High School (today called a middle school) did alot of paddling, normally in front of the class.[B)]

Our middle school coach, in the 60's, had two paddles. A wooden one he made in shop class, and a special plastic one with holes drilled in it for more sting. He seldom used them but often spoke of them. It was abusive, plain and simple. Any talk of how well disciplined kids were in the old days because of paddling is lost on me. I was there, it didn't work well at all and it was neanderthal. If that coach used one on my kid today he would answer to my rage.

By the time we got to High School paddling was laughable. One of my fellow classmates took umbrage with the constant pestering of a smart aleck ex TU football player who was teaching Phys Ed. The student nailed him with one punch in front of the whole class. To his credit, the gym teacher got up, dusted himself off, and said, "We need to talk with a counselor. Follow me." The student did and they both returned the next day with a much better relationship!

Act like an adult and treat kids with respect and they'll return it. If they don't, behave like an adult anyway.

[buckeye]

Maybe the counselor had a better swing.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by buckeye

Maybe the counselor had a better swing.

[]The counselor definitely had more swing.

The phys ed instructor could have pounded the kid. He later played on a semi pro team here called the Tulsa Thunder. He was a weight lifter and quite buff. But he valued his career more and it ended up well for both of them.

[cannon_fodder]

To clarify - I am not an advocate of school child beatings.  I would be OK if the primary objective was humiliation (getting spanked in front of the class certainly would be so) and not pain - but I understand setting such a boundary institutionally is really hard.  If my child was struck I would have mixed reactions, if it was hard enough to leave a mark I would NOT be happy.  Kind of a mixed bag...

But teachers are afraid to punish a kid in nearly any fashion.  That's my point.  Make him sit in a corner with a dunce hat on if you want (humiliation can get the job done) or send him down a grade until he gets his homework done.  Whatever works for THAT kid.  I make sure my sons teachers know they are in charge and what they say goes, at school and it can follow him home.

Odd tangent we got into.

[sauerkraut]

I strongly favor paddling in the schools, it works wonders. However, In todays world everything is nutsville, the parents take the kids side and turn against the teacher in issues of discipline, and parents threaten to sue. In the days of bygone eras the parents took the side of the teachers. It's a different world today. Today any redding or bruise is child abuse, 40 years ago teachers would turn a kids rump black & blue and when the kid got home the parents gave him some more. Some of the teachers I had in school would have been jailed if they did what they did when I was in school today.. We also learned in school and when we walked across that stage at our grad. we could read and write and even read a tape measure (something many of todays kids can't do). Todays kids can't even fill out a job app. Colleges have to give kids refreshers. We spend more on our schools than most other nations and turn out some of the worlds dumbest students. There should not be any computers in the classrooms. The kids need to learn the 3 "R's" first.[)]

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

I strongly favor paddling in the schools, it works wonders. However, In todays world everything is nutsville, the parents take the kids side and turn against the teacher in issues of discipline, and parents threaten to sue. In the days of bygone eras the parents took the side of the teachers. It's a different world today. Today any redding or bruise is child abuse, 40 years ago teachers would turn a kids rump black & blue and when the kid got home the parents gave him some more. Some of the teachers I had in school would have been jailed if they did what they did when I was in school today.. We also learned in school and when we walked across that stage at our grad. we could read and write and even read a tape measure (something many of todays kids can't do). Todays kids can't even fill out a job app. Colleges have to give kids refreshers. We spend more on our schools than most other nations and turn out some of the worlds dumbest students. There should not be any computers in the classrooms. The kids need to learn the 3 "R's" first.[)]

Are you from OK?

[sauerkraut]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

I strongly favor paddling in the schools, it works wonders. However, In todays world everything is nutsville, the parents take the kids side and turn against the teacher in issues of discipline, and parents threaten to sue. In the days of bygone eras the parents took the side of the teachers. It's a different world today. Today any redding or bruise is child abuse, 40 years ago teachers would turn a kids rump black & blue and when the kid got home the parents gave him some more. Some of the teachers I had in school would have been jailed if they did what they did when I was in school today.. We also learned in school and when we walked across that stage at our grad. we could read and write and even read a tape measure (something many of todays kids can't do). Todays kids can't even fill out a job app. Colleges have to give kids refreshers. We spend more on our schools than most other nations and turn out some of the worlds dumbest students. There should not be any computers in the classrooms. The kids need to learn the 3 "R's" first.[)]

Are you from OK?

No, I lived in OK for only 8 months. I have lived in 5 states.

[jne]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

I had a teacher in 8th grade that when the kids returned from lunch rowdy one day the teacher asked them to be quiet a few times, (the teacher was busy at her desk finishing up some work) the kids did not settle down until she brought out the paddle and banged it on her desk and she said "I'm on the war path today just try me I said be quiet" you could of heard a pin drop. Discipline is a big key in our schools.

Sounds like my science teacher at Barnard Elementary, Mrs. Crain.  She kept the paddle on her desk.

I don't know what was worse back in school:  bending over and waiting to get the swats or the actual physical pain of them.  One of the principals at Jenks had a reputation of making even the hardest thugs come out of his office wiping tears off their cheeks.

The hardest thugs at Jenks LOL!  Oh IP - you come from a hardened stock. HAHA

[sauerkraut]

It seems to me after reading many of the links posted here that crime in Tulsa is spread out pretty much evenly all over the metro area. [xx(]

[TheArtist]

My mom was a middle school and high school teacher for many years. I actually had her as my 9th grade geology teacher in Owasso. She did something that was very unique in her classes. After each test the students would be arranged according to the grade they made. The highest scoring student would sit in the first seat in the first row on down to the lowest grade student, last seat, last row.

I found that this changed the classroom dynamics considerably.

 
1. Intelligence and doing well was suddenly valued. Didnt matter what clothes you wore, how rich or poor you were, how good you were on the football field, how popular or good looking you were, etc. What mattered was doing good work, learning, and making the best grade you could. During study periods or team projects, the opposite rows and students were paired to work together. The smartest kid would team up with and help the least smartest.

2. Every test gave you the opportunity to improve so it instilled a bit of competitive spirit, and one that was centered around learning.  

3.  It turned out to be a great equalizer. I remember this really popular, pretty, blond girl. She would snob other people down, some girls in her clique wanted to be like her, etc. It was amaaazing how things changed after that first test when suddenly she was one of the last people sitting in the last row with some of the thugs. She didnt come off as being "hot stuff" then. It was also interesting to see the dynamics of the "jock" who did end up in the "nerd/good grade" section.  When we paired up in opposite teams, well, ok, I was one of the 4eyed nerds battling it out for the first chair... but then we would get paired with the opposite not-so-bright student. It was great, I actually became friends with someone I would have otherwise never talked to. We had to work together, us nerds generally love helping out and figuring out ways to help our teammate understand things and do better. We would not only compete for first row and first chair, but also to try and get our teammate to do well and move up.    

4. Cheating was cut way down. The smart kids didnt cheat off each other, and the dumb kids were at least smart enough to know that it wouldnt do any good to cheat off the other dumb kid next to them.

5. Discipline was also a bit easier to control because people didnt always sit by their usual trouble maker friends, and the teacher could practically ignore the smart half, discipline wise, and keep an eagle eye on the other side of the room lol. Same thing with the teaching in general, the teacher could spend more time on a particular subject because they could be more aware of what was going on. Its easier to read the "I dont get this at all" expressions if they are concentrated in one corner. And trust me they would be more vocal about not getting something when it was a group of them, they felt more secure in saying, Hey WE dont get this.  

I wish that other classes had done the same thing. One class or subject, one kid may excel in, another do poorly in.  Lots of kids could have their chance at a point of pride. Some kids are good at certain sports and not others. Some kids are good at English, others Math, others Science, Art, History, etc.

This type of thing isnt a "be all end all" idea by any stretch. But it could be something to consider throwing into the mix with other practices and school policies. It seems that often times kids are valuing all kinds of things in school BUT learning (popularity, hair, clothes, being tough, good at sports, having this or that, etc). This helped to put learning right back into the mix.