Little Rock and Tulsa...Thoughts on the two...

[OUGrad05]

Guys I'm in Little Rock working this week, or as I used to call it "****tle Rock".  I spent a fair amount of time in this town growing up because we had family here and in Tennessee so we'd drive through stay a few nights, etc.  This town was an absolute craphole 12 years ago.  

We drive into town and there's some new mid/high rise condo's going up and a couple of smaller mixed use buildings and a fantastic night life in downtown Little Rock.  They have also done a fantastic job capitalizing on the River, which is full almost year round.  The downtown area is pretty clean (there's  about the same number of transients as downtown Tulsa) the food/bar/hangout selection is fantastic and the roads are superb.  Only real mistake I see is all the two way streets downtown really limit traffic flow and as a result traffic is a real *****.  Don't  get me wrong I'd still much prefer Tulsa to Little Rock, but if Little Rock can clean their crap up why can't Tulsa?  Little Rock did get some federal tax dollars for the Clinton Library but its still impressive how far they've come in 12 years.  

Having said all they, Little Rock has no Utica square and while their downtown is good for a city of its size Utica and Brookside would still be nicer in my opinion.  It's just frustrating to work downtown and have virtually no reason to go downtown other than for work.  Then a city like Little Rock manages to make their downtown area quite nice, walkable, safe and clean.  

We really need to try and get Tulsa on the right track and maybe more county initiatives are in order and not just the city of Tulsa.  I know those of us who do not technically live in "Tulsa" have a huge vested interest in the city and want it to succeed.  

Overall the Tulsa metro is much nicer than Little Rock but the strides Little Rock has made are pretty amazing.  We can and should be able to do the same if we elect some real leaders.

[EricP]

Damn skippy. Seems like our leaders are too worried about themselves to really make things happen.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by EricP

Damn skippy. Seems like our leaders are too worried about themselves to really make things happen.

Yes,

It's too bad the city isn't doing anything. A new arena, rebuilt downtown streets, new downtown hotels and housing, new baseball stadium, expanded convention center, new indigent faculties, new city hall, massive streets package, rebuilt airport, expanded higher education facilities, and a rebuilt Riverparks system are all just indicators of doing nothing.

[TheTed]

Traveling really reinforces how lame our downtown is/was. Pretty much everybody has a better downtown than us. Even Wichita's blows ours away.

I'm glad to see us making strides but it's gonna take some time to even become average again.

[OUGrad05]

quote:Originally posted by TheTed

Traveling really reinforces how lame our downtown is/was. Pretty much everybody has a better downtown than us. Even Wichita's blows ours away.

I'm glad to see us making strides but it's gonna take some time to even become average again.

We need more residents downtown, if downtown becomes safe, if the ballpark gets built and if some good quality housing is built that would be a huge start to returning downtown to a true downtown not just an office park.

[TheTed]

quote:Originally posted by OUGrad05

quote:Originally posted by TheTed

Traveling really reinforces how lame our downtown is/was. Pretty much everybody has a better downtown than us. Even Wichita's blows ours away.

I'm glad to see us making strides but it's gonna take some time to even become average again.

We need more residents downtown, if downtown becomes safe, if the ballpark gets built and if some good quality housing is built that would be a huge start to returning downtown to a true downtown not just an office park.

I agree with you about the need for housing.

But as someone who lives downtown and walks downtown at night a lot, it's not dangerous. It can seem that way, but it's not. Nobody's ever bothered me other than the occasional bum asking for money.

I'm probably safer walking through downtown at night than I would be if I lived in some apartment complex in south Tulsa, where people seem to be getting robbed and shot at in their parking lots at an alarming rate.

[OUGrad05]

quote:Originally posted by TheTed

quote:Originally posted by OUGrad05

quote:Originally posted by TheTed

Traveling really reinforces how lame our downtown is/was. Pretty much everybody has a better downtown than us. Even Wichita's blows ours away.

I'm glad to see us making strides but it's gonna take some time to even become average again.

We need more residents downtown, if downtown becomes safe, if the ballpark gets built and if some good quality housing is built that would be a huge start to returning downtown to a true downtown not just an office park.

I agree with you about the need for housing.

But as someone who lives downtown and walks downtown at night a lot, it's not dangerous. It can seem that way, but it's not. Nobody's ever bothered me other than the occasional bum asking for money.

I'm probably safer walking through downtown at night than I would be if I lived in some apartment complex in south Tulsa, where people seem to be getting robbed and shot at in their parking lots at an alarming rate.

I spend a lot of time downtown working.  I've never had any issues, but perception is reality for 95% of the population.  It may not be dangerous but it seems dangerous to those who don't go down there.  This stigma needs to be overcome.

[TheArtist]

As was noted, Little Rock and even Wichita dont really have areas like Brookside, Cherry Street, and Utica Square. For those smaller cities that type of development had tended to occur in their downtowns. We have some new development downtown and definitely some "big pieces" like the arena, baseball stadium, Mayo Hotel, etc. going in with more stuff likely to follow very soon. Its similar to my complaint about us not really having a gallery or arts district whith lots concentrated in one area, we have multiple places, each with a handful of galleries and shops. Same with our new loft/urban living/shopping type developments are spread out in 3 or 4 different areas and not mostly in downtown. Same thing perhaps with our colleges. Lots of small campuses in different locations, couple of them being in and by downtown. But no large campus in downtown.

Over all, we have a decent amount of stuff going on, not as much as I would of course like lol, but its spread out into several different areas.

[dayzella]

Kavannaugh/Hillcrest is the loose equivilent of Brookside - only swankier and without the bikers.  The Heights also has an enclave of walkable swank retail/restaurant cuteness.  There is yet another restaurant cute section down on the river/Rebsamon that has been there for eons.  The newest mall across from the old Park Plaza is open air, upscale shopping, just like Utica.  It is called Midtowne - it opened a few years ago.

Not all of downtown LR is revitalized.  The part you are spending time in is called the River Market.  If you want to see less gentrified but more authentic, drive south and look at the MacArthur Park Historic District or the Quapaw Quarter.

[marc]

quote:Originally posted by dayzella

Kavannaugh/Hillcrest is the loose equivilent of Brookside - only swankier and without the bikers.  The Heights also has an enclave of walkable swank retail/restaurant cuteness.  There is yet another restaurant cute section down on the river/Rebsamon that has been there for eons.  The newest mall across from the old Park Plaza is open air, upscale shopping, just like Utica.  It is called Midtowne - it opened a few years ago.

Not all of downtown LR is revitalized.  The part you are spending time in is called the River Market.  If you want to see less gentrified but more authentic, drive south and look at the MacArthur Park Historic District or the Quapaw Quarter.

Of course Utica Square has a few upscale shopping choices still not available in the smaller Little Rock or Wichita, such as Saks.

On the other hand, Little Rock was about a decade ahead of Tulsa in seeing the advantages of having a downtown arena. Their arena opened back in 1999.

[TheArtist]

Here is my take on a possible scenario for our downtown...

I think that its likely one of the reasons the trust wanted control of a good chunk of property around the stadium was so that it could offer it up to some large developer, aka the old East End development. IF they are able to snag a large developer and soon, then we will definitely likely see other small developers go in around that. So what you could see in short order, 3-4 years, is the entire area from the Brady Arts District, to Greenwood, to the Blue Dome District, filling in and finally getting us the kind of downtown we have been wanting.

If they arent able to snag a large developer for the property they control by late spring. I would say we are in for a longer, rockier, road. The question will then be, will the trust start allowing smaller developers to come in, thus making it so that they dont have the large chunk to offer up to one big development? Or do they hang onto most of it waiting, and for how long will they wait?

If the economy wasnt as shaky as it is right now, I would definitely lay the odds on the more rapid, large development scenario. But the way things are, it makes you more cautious. Though one has to admit, that even though it would seem to be a large development to us, its really not, and I think whatever could be squashed in there would be sustained by local demand, the local economy and growth projections.

We will either see a lot go in rather quickly, or a continued slow trickle. Here is hoping for the former.

[OUGrad05]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Here is my take on a possible scenario for our downtown...

I think that its likely one of the reasons the trust wanted control of a good chunk of property around the stadium was so that it could offer it up to some large developer, aka the old East End development. IF they are able to snag a large developer and soon, then we will definitely likely see other small developers go in around that. So what you could see in short order, 3-4 years, is the entire area from the Brady Arts District, to Greenwood, to the Blue Dome District, filling in and finally getting us the kind of downtown we have been wanting.

If they arent able to snag a large developer for the property they control by late spring. I would say we are in for a longer, rockier, road. The question will then be, will the trust start allowing smaller developers to come in, thus making it so that they dont have the large chunk to offer up to one big development? Or do they hang onto most of it waiting, and for how long will they wait?

If the economy wasnt as shaky as it is right now, I would definitely lay the odds on the more rapid, large development scenario. But the way things are, it makes you more cautious. Though one has to admit, that even though it would seem to be a large development to us, its really not, and I think whatever could be squashed in there would be sustained by local demand, the local economy and growth projections.

We will either see a lot go in rather quickly, or a continued slow trickle. Here is hoping for the former.

But screwing over your small developers is not going to encourage the risk taking necessary downtown.  Small or large, the TDA can't stab people in the back once approvals for development have been completed.

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by OUGrad05

Guys I'm in Little Rock working this week, or as I used to call it "****tle Rock".  I spent a fair amount of time in this town growing up because we had family here and in Tennessee so we'd drive through stay a few nights, etc.  This town was an absolute craphole 12 years ago.  

We drive into town and there's some new mid/high rise condo's going up and a couple of smaller mixed use buildings and a fantastic night life in downtown Little Rock.  They have also done a fantastic job capitalizing on the River, which is full almost year round.  The downtown area is pretty clean (there's  about the same number of transients as downtown Tulsa) the food/bar/hangout selection is fantastic and the roads are superb.  Only real mistake I see is all the two way streets downtown really limit traffic flow and as a result traffic is a real *****.  Don't  get me wrong I'd still much prefer Tulsa to Little Rock, but if Little Rock can clean their crap up why can't Tulsa?  Little Rock did get some federal tax dollars for the Clinton Library but its still impressive how far they've come in 12 years.  

Having said all they, Little Rock has no Utica square and while their downtown is good for a city of its size Utica and Brookside would still be nicer in my opinion.  It's just frustrating to work downtown and have virtually no reason to go downtown other than for work.  Then a city like Little Rock manages to make their downtown area quite nice, walkable, safe and clean.  

We really need to try and get Tulsa on the right track and maybe more county initiatives are in order and not just the city of Tulsa.  I know those of us who do not technically live in "Tulsa" have a huge vested interest in the city and want it to succeed.  

Overall the Tulsa metro is much nicer than Little Rock but the strides Little Rock has made are pretty amazing.  We can and should be able to do the same if we elect some real leaders.

Did you notice the steel rails in the streets and overhead wires in their river development area, out towards the Clinton Library, and across the Arkansas River to North Little Rock?  Periodically, a large yellow vehicle with steel wheels riding on the rails and using electric power from the overhead wire would appear. People would get on or off at places where it stopped. It's a form of mass transit called a trolley.

[OUGrad05]

quote:Originally posted by Red Arrow

quote:Originally posted by OUGrad05

Guys I'm in Little Rock working this week, or as I used to call it "****tle Rock".  I spent a fair amount of time in this town growing up because we had family here and in Tennessee so we'd drive through stay a few nights, etc.  This town was an absolute craphole 12 years ago.  

We drive into town and there's some new mid/high rise condo's going up and a couple of smaller mixed use buildings and a fantastic night life in downtown Little Rock.  They have also done a fantastic job capitalizing on the River, which is full almost year round.  The downtown area is pretty clean (there's  about the same number of transients as downtown Tulsa) the food/bar/hangout selection is fantastic and the roads are superb.  Only real mistake I see is all the two way streets downtown really limit traffic flow and as a result traffic is a real *****.  Don't  get me wrong I'd still much prefer Tulsa to Little Rock, but if Little Rock can clean their crap up why can't Tulsa?  Little Rock did get some federal tax dollars for the Clinton Library but its still impressive how far they've come in 12 years.  

Having said all they, Little Rock has no Utica square and while their downtown is good for a city of its size Utica and Brookside would still be nicer in my opinion.  It's just frustrating to work downtown and have virtually no reason to go downtown other than for work.  Then a city like Little Rock manages to make their downtown area quite nice, walkable, safe and clean.  

We really need to try and get Tulsa on the right track and maybe more county initiatives are in order and not just the city of Tulsa.  I know those of us who do not technically live in "Tulsa" have a huge vested interest in the city and want it to succeed.  

Overall the Tulsa metro is much nicer than Little Rock but the strides Little Rock has made are pretty amazing.  We can and should be able to do the same if we elect some real leaders.

Did you notice the steel rails in the streets and overhead wires in their river development area, out towards the Clinton Library, and across the Arkansas River to North Little Rock?  Periodically, a large yellow vehicle with steel wheels riding on the rails and using electric power from the overhead wire would appear. People would get on or off at places where it stopped. It's a form of mass transit called a trolley.

Uhh yeah I noticed it and the trolly didn't make downtown what it is lol

In fact the most amount of people I ever saw on the trolly was 9, the next time it was 5 then 4, then countless completely empty trollies.  

I asked the lady at the hotel about it, she said that it was rarely even at 1/4 capacity and not to mention it is INCREDIBLY slow.  Hardly mass transit.

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by OUGrad05
Did you notice the steel rails in the streets and overhead wires in their river development area, out towards the Clinton Library, and across the Arkansas River to North Little Rock?  Periodically, a large yellow vehicle with steel wheels riding on the rails and using electric power from the overhead wire would appear. People would get on or off at places where it stopped. It's a form of mass transit called a trolley.

Uhh yeah I noticed it and the trolly didn't make downtown what it is lol

In fact the most amount of people I ever saw on the trolly was 9, the next time it was 5 then 4, then countless completely empty trollies.  

I asked the lady at the hotel about it, she said that it was rarely even at 1/4 capacity and not to mention it is INCREDIBLY slow.  Hardly mass transit.
[/quote]

I've heard the same complaint about Tulsa buses. The circulator part of the trolley really only needs to be faster than walking in a walkable neighborhood. Faster is nicer. They need to run enough trolleys that you don't have to wait longer than it would take you to walk. I don't know it they are doing that.  Expanding to the airport has been mentioned. Further expansion to other parts of downtown will likely follow in the future.  Putting in a full sized system as a starter is not likely to happen anywhere. Do the starter and expand as the public demands.

I didn't get to ride the trolley when I was there in Feb 2007.  The group I was with wanted to see the Clinton Library. We were on our way back from Memphis on a Sunday. (Memphis also has a (real) trolley, we used that one to go to dinner.) The trolley  extension to the Library wasn't open then.