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Mileage on Ethanol

Started by waterboy, July 17, 2008, 10:21:21 PM

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OUGrad05

10% ethanol mix will not make a drastic difference in mileage, about 3% so you can chalk up 3% variances in MPG to a variety of things including different driving conditions for any given tank.  Ethanol contains about 30 to 35% less energy than gasoline on a per gallon basis.  So if you ran E85 you would notice a substantial difference in your mileage.
 

AngieB

Off topic....

Does anyone know how/where to report a pump/station that is over-reporting how much fuel you're getting? I put 13.22 gallons in my 13.2 gallon tank and it was not totally empty when I started. I mentioned it to my husband and he said thought the same thing last time he fueled up at that station. He did it again yesterday, and we're pretty sure there's a discrepancy.

I've looked all over the Corporation Commission website, but if it's there, they don't make it easy to find.

inteller

quote:
Originally posted by zstyles

There are some places in Tulsa that do have no ethanol..but you have to look for it...usually its about 10 cents more per gallon...



wrong.  71st/mingo is 100% gas and no up charge.  You only get upcharged by a**hole places in midtown like 41st/yale shell.

sauerkraut

#18
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaMINI

Off topic....

Does anyone know how/where to report a pump/station that is over-reporting how much fuel you're getting? I put 13.22 gallons in my 13.2 gallon tank and it was not totally empty when I started. I mentioned it to my husband and he said thought the same thing last time he fueled up at that station. He did it again yesterday, and we're pretty sure there's a discrepancy.

I've looked all over the Corporation Commission website, but if it's there, they don't make it easy to find.

It must be remembered that the fuel tank is not exactly a certain size, they do make them a bit oversize. Your fuel gage may not be 100 percent accurate, also running a vehicle till the fuel tank is almost dry is very hard on the fuel pump on fuel injected vehicles and it can shorten a fuel pumps life. A test I do is pump in one gallon to what it says on the dial then I look at the price and it should match, (unless if the price is off it throws the gallon amount off too). The most easy way to figure out what's going on is to try doing that at another station and see if it does the same thing, but running low like that is hard on the fuel pump.
Proud Global  Warming Deiner! Earth Is Getting Colder NOT Warmer!

Hoss

quote:
Originally posted by inteller

quote:
Originally posted by zstyles

There are some places in Tulsa that do have no ethanol..but you have to look for it...usually its about 10 cents more per gallon...



wrong.  71st/mingo is 100% gas and no up charge.  You only get upcharged by a**hole places in midtown like 41st/yale shell.



[V]

There's that midtown anti-bias....

waterboy

quote:
Originally posted by John Redcorn

quote:
Originally posted by waterboy


My guess is that this kind of car simply does not require much in total btu to do its job. Unlike a v-8 or a high performance engine they simply don't need much to work well. I've had other cars (mgb, isuzu trooper) that had similar behaviour. They got the same mileage whether you put in premium or low octane regular.




You ought to actually notice more of a difference on a 30mpg engine than a 15mpg one.

If a car does not require premium (Just a guess but I'd say an MGB and a Trooper probably do not) putting premium in does nothing except take more $ from you.


From my findings (I drive 600 miles per week) I get about 23mpg on no ethanol and 20 with ethanol. The 10 cents extra at some of those places actually does save money.




What I mean is that the 4cylinder motor in my Trooper, MGB, Corolla probably does not even need the octane of regular pump gas. So when a reduced energy ethanol is presented it makes very little difference. Most likely the motors are low compression, retarded timing etc. Whereas a Detroit v-8/v-6 has its lineage in higher compression, larger displacement and techological tweaking. They need the higher quality fuel. Just surmising.

Here's another reason some of you may be finding lower performance. Octane fraud. A friend of mine depends on high performance racing engines in his business. After experiencing detonation which ruined some $10K engines he started carrying a test kit with him to gasoline stations. He often finds that pump gas labeled 92 octane is actually closer to 86 whereupon he reports the discrepancy to the Corporation Commission and they fine the station. Its probably very common.

Tulsa Mini, as far as accuracy of gas station pumps. Look at the stickers on the pump showing when they were last tested. I have found that I sometimes can get 6 gallons in a 5 gallon gas container. Imagine. These off brand gas stations display a slightly smaller price per gallon but more than make up for it with the fraudulent pump metering. Of course gasoline volume varies with temperature but the underground tanks should keep it stable.

Its a crooked world, eh?

Hoss

quote:
Originally posted by waterboy

quote:
Originally posted by John Redcorn

quote:
Originally posted by waterboy


My guess is that this kind of car simply does not require much in total btu to do its job. Unlike a v-8 or a high performance engine they simply don't need much to work well. I've had other cars (mgb, isuzu trooper) that had similar behaviour. They got the same mileage whether you put in premium or low octane regular.




You ought to actually notice more of a difference on a 30mpg engine than a 15mpg one.

If a car does not require premium (Just a guess but I'd say an MGB and a Trooper probably do not) putting premium in does nothing except take more $ from you.


From my findings (I drive 600 miles per week) I get about 23mpg on no ethanol and 20 with ethanol. The 10 cents extra at some of those places actually does save money.




What I mean is that the 4cylinder motor in my Trooper, MGB, Corolla probably does not even need the octane of regular pump gas. So when a reduced energy ethanol is presented it makes very little difference. Most likely the motors are low compression, retarded timing etc. Whereas a Detroit v-8/v-6 has its lineage in higher compression, larger displacement and techological tweaking. They need the higher quality fuel. Just surmising.

Here's another reason some of you may be finding lower performance. Octane fraud. A friend of mine depends on high performance racing engines in his business. After experiencing detonation which ruined some $10K engines he started carrying a test kit with him to gasoline stations. He often finds that pump gas labeled 92 octane is actually closer to 86 whereupon he reports the discrepancy to the Corporation Commission and they fine the station. Its probably very common.

Tulsa Mini, as far as accuracy of gas station pumps. Look at the stickers on the pump showing when they were last tested. I have found that I sometimes can get 6 gallons in a 5 gallon gas container. Imagine. These off brand gas stations display a slightly smaller price per gallon but more than make up for it with the fraudulent pump metering. Of course gasoline volume varies with temperature but the underground tanks should keep it stable.

Its a crooked world, eh?



You're still not understanding.

Octane is NOT a measure of performance.  It IS, however, a measure of how well a fuel is resistant to pre-ignition, also called auto-ignition and knocking.

Technically, Ethanol has a higher octane than petroleum based fuel.  Does that mean that it has higher energy output per unit?  Absolutely not.

Let's not confuse the general public on octane rating versus volumetric power of a unit of fuel.

I say the same thing in the thread regarding Quiktrip and it's use of E10.

OUGrad05

quote:
Originally posted by Hoss

quote:
Originally posted by waterboy

quote:
Originally posted by John Redcorn

quote:
Originally posted by waterboy


My guess is that this kind of car simply does not require much in total btu to do its job. Unlike a v-8 or a high performance engine they simply don't need much to work well. I've had other cars (mgb, isuzu trooper) that had similar behaviour. They got the same mileage whether you put in premium or low octane regular.




You ought to actually notice more of a difference on a 30mpg engine than a 15mpg one.

If a car does not require premium (Just a guess but I'd say an MGB and a Trooper probably do not) putting premium in does nothing except take more $ from you.


From my findings (I drive 600 miles per week) I get about 23mpg on no ethanol and 20 with ethanol. The 10 cents extra at some of those places actually does save money.




What I mean is that the 4cylinder motor in my Trooper, MGB, Corolla probably does not even need the octane of regular pump gas. So when a reduced energy ethanol is presented it makes very little difference. Most likely the motors are low compression, retarded timing etc. Whereas a Detroit v-8/v-6 has its lineage in higher compression, larger displacement and techological tweaking. They need the higher quality fuel. Just surmising.

Here's another reason some of you may be finding lower performance. Octane fraud. A friend of mine depends on high performance racing engines in his business. After experiencing detonation which ruined some $10K engines he started carrying a test kit with him to gasoline stations. He often finds that pump gas labeled 92 octane is actually closer to 86 whereupon he reports the discrepancy to the Corporation Commission and they fine the station. Its probably very common.

Tulsa Mini, as far as accuracy of gas station pumps. Look at the stickers on the pump showing when they were last tested. I have found that I sometimes can get 6 gallons in a 5 gallon gas container. Imagine. These off brand gas stations display a slightly smaller price per gallon but more than make up for it with the fraudulent pump metering. Of course gasoline volume varies with temperature but the underground tanks should keep it stable.

Its a crooked world, eh?



You're still not understanding.

Octane is NOT a measure of performance.  It IS, however, a measure of how well a fuel is resistant to pre-ignition, also called auto-ignition and knocking.

Technically, Ethanol has a higher octane than petroleum based fuel.  Does that mean that it has higher energy output per unit?  Absolutely not.

Let's not confuse the general public on octane rating versus volumetric power of a unit of fuel.

I say the same thing in the thread regarding Quiktrip and it's use of E10.



Thats correct, higher octane fuel doesn't offer any substantial increase or decrease in its BTU value.  It's a rating based on how slowly and evenly the fuel burns in the combustion chamber of the vehicle.  Higher octane burns slightly slow which allows for a more even burn over the surface of the piston and reduces carbon buildup, reduces knocking/pinging and as a result on cars recommending premium fuel, you typically see a 3 to 5% bump in horsepower.  This is NOT because the gasoline alone provides the power bump.  The less detonation/knocking/pinging in the motor the more advanced the timing on the motor can be set by the onboard computer which results in a slightly leaner (more optimal air fuel ratio) fuel ratio which in turn causes a small increase in power.
 

waterboy

I understand now. I was using octane as a measure of energy when it is really a measure of one aspect of performance. What I don't understand is how come my little Corolla is doing so well running on this low btu fuel. Its mpg rating was 38/28 and I'm driving it pretty hard stop/go and still getting 30 consistently. Ethanol doesn't seem to bother this car much where it does seem to affect the detroit v-8's & v-6's.

OUGrad05

quote:
Originally posted by waterboy

I understand now. I was using octane as a measure of energy when it is really a measure of one aspect of performance. What I don't understand is how come my little Corolla is doing so well running on this low btu fuel. Its mpg rating was 38/28 and I'm driving it pretty hard stop/go and still getting 30 consistently. Ethanol doesn't seem to bother this car much where it does seem to affect the detroit v-8's & v-6's.



Did you read my post from earlier?  If you're using gasoline with 10% ethanol that represents a 3% decrease in available BTU's which in theory would translate into a 3% decrease in mileage or roughly .9mpg in your case.  It is very difficult to find a .9 mpg change from tank to tank.
 

Hoss

quote:
Originally posted by OUGrad05

quote:
Originally posted by waterboy

I understand now. I was using octane as a measure of energy when it is really a measure of one aspect of performance. What I don't understand is how come my little Corolla is doing so well running on this low btu fuel. Its mpg rating was 38/28 and I'm driving it pretty hard stop/go and still getting 30 consistently. Ethanol doesn't seem to bother this car much where it does seem to affect the detroit v-8's & v-6's.



Did you read my post from earlier?  If you're using gasoline with 10% ethanol that represents a 3% decrease in available BTU's which in theory would translate into a 3% decrease in mileage or roughly .9mpg in your case.  It is very difficult to find a .9 mpg change from tank to tank.



That isn't happening to more than two-thirds of the people I talk to.  It's closer to 8 to 15 percent change for the worse.

waterboy

#26
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss

quote:
Originally posted by OUGrad05

quote:
Originally posted by waterboy

I understand now. I was using octane as a measure of energy when it is really a measure of one aspect of performance. What I don't understand is how come my little Corolla is doing so well running on this low btu fuel. Its mpg rating was 38/28 and I'm driving it pretty hard stop/go and still getting 30 consistently. Ethanol doesn't seem to bother this car much where it does seem to affect the detroit v-8's & v-6's.



Did you read my post from earlier?  If you're using gasoline with 10% ethanol that represents a 3% decrease in available BTU's which in theory would translate into a 3% decrease in mileage or roughly .9mpg in your case.  It is very difficult to find a .9 mpg change from tank to tank.



That isn't happening to more than two-thirds of the people I talk to.  It's closer to 8 to 15 percent change for the worse.



No, no, no. You must read his posts and accept his theory. All other experience is folly.

Sorry, OUgrad, the whole purpose of this thread was to provide real life experience with ethanol, not theory. If it only amounts to .9 mpg change then all the pissing and moaning about it is nonsense. But that's just my theory.

OUGrad05

quote:
Originally posted by Hoss

quote:
Originally posted by OUGrad05

quote:
Originally posted by waterboy

I understand now. I was using octane as a measure of energy when it is really a measure of one aspect of performance. What I don't understand is how come my little Corolla is doing so well running on this low btu fuel. Its mpg rating was 38/28 and I'm driving it pretty hard stop/go and still getting 30 consistently. Ethanol doesn't seem to bother this car much where it does seem to affect the detroit v-8's & v-6's.



Did you read my post from earlier?  If you're using gasoline with 10% ethanol that represents a 3% decrease in available BTU's which in theory would translate into a 3% decrease in mileage or roughly .9mpg in your case.  It is very difficult to find a .9 mpg change from tank to tank.



That isn't happening to more than two-thirds of the people I talk to.  It's closer to 8 to 15 percent change for the worse.



E10 is only 10% ethanol.  You shouldn't see a drastic change in mileage running E10.  E85 makes a huge difference.  There could be some other additives causing mileage to drop.  Or it could be their driving habbits or they may not have a clue what they're talking about.  I have been keeping track with an excel spreadsheet comparing the differences over numerous tanks of gas to help compensate for driving differences or perhaps differences in weather conditions.  What I've found up to now is on gasoline that is 10% ethanol I am averaging 25.7 MPG on regular gasoline I am averaging 26.2 MPG.  Now there is a caveat, so far I have done 6 tanks of E10 and 2 tanks of regular gasoline so the results up till now are not very conclusive, but hopefully within the next 8 to 12 weeks I will have more concise data.
 

Hoss

quote:
Originally posted by waterboy

quote:
Originally posted by Hoss

quote:
Originally posted by OUGrad05

quote:
Originally posted by waterboy

I understand now. I was using octane as a measure of energy when it is really a measure of one aspect of performance. What I don't understand is how come my little Corolla is doing so well running on this low btu fuel. Its mpg rating was 38/28 and I'm driving it pretty hard stop/go and still getting 30 consistently. Ethanol doesn't seem to bother this car much where it does seem to affect the detroit v-8's & v-6's.



Did you read my post from earlier?  If you're using gasoline with 10% ethanol that represents a 3% decrease in available BTU's which in theory would translate into a 3% decrease in mileage or roughly .9mpg in your case.  It is very difficult to find a .9 mpg change from tank to tank.



That isn't happening to more than two-thirds of the people I talk to.  It's closer to 8 to 15 percent change for the worse.



No, no, no. You must read his posts and accept his theory. All other experience is folly.

Sorry, Hoss, the whole purpose of this thread was to provide real life experience with ethanol, not theory. Perhaps you didn't read the original sentence of the first post. If it only amounts to .9 mpg change then all the pissing and moaning about it is nonsense. But that's just my theory.



Yeah, I get the hint...

The problem I have is that there are so many people out there wanting the world to change to a cleaner burning fuel, but corn based ethanol damn sure isn't it.  It wastes more energy producing it than just producing and refining regular petroleum.  PLUS, it has driven the cost of corn from 3 dollars a bushel to almost 8 dollars in two years.

It doesn't really bother me maintenance wise, as I've said probably a hundred times in here, I drive a FlexFuel vehicle, badge and all

http://www.flickr.com/photos/oilerfan/2152350361/in/set-72157603569564770/

But I hate what QT did and other retailers who decided not to disclose to their consumers that their vehicles were not getting what was advertised.


OUGrad05

quote:
Originally posted by waterboy

quote:
Originally posted by Hoss

quote:
Originally posted by OUGrad05

quote:
Originally posted by waterboy

I understand now. I was using octane as a measure of energy when it is really a measure of one aspect of performance. What I don't understand is how come my little Corolla is doing so well running on this low btu fuel. Its mpg rating was 38/28 and I'm driving it pretty hard stop/go and still getting 30 consistently. Ethanol doesn't seem to bother this car much where it does seem to affect the detroit v-8's & v-6's.



Did you read my post from earlier?  If you're using gasoline with 10% ethanol that represents a 3% decrease in available BTU's which in theory would translate into a 3% decrease in mileage or roughly .9mpg in your case.  It is very difficult to find a .9 mpg change from tank to tank.



That isn't happening to more than two-thirds of the people I talk to.  It's closer to 8 to 15 percent change for the worse.



No, no, no. You must read his posts and accept his theory. All other experience is folly.

Sorry, OUgrad, the whole purpose of this thread was to provide real life experience with ethanol, not theory. If it only amounts to .9 mpg change then all the pissing and moaning about it is nonsense. But that's just my theory.



There's tons of real life experience and studies done on ethanol.  E10 doesn't cause a substantial difference in mileage which is why one of the posters has seen little difference in their MPG.  

I think using ethanol as a fuel is retarded, its expensive, less efficient, dirtier than gasoline and we're burning our food so we can drive.  I'm not defending ethanol but the fact is 10% ethanol should pose no major isseus with MPG.  If it does you might consider a tune because of the way ethanol burns in the combustion chamber you could see a difference if you have one or more fouled injectors or plugs.  

Ethanol also tends to make a bigger mileage difference on larger, bigger bore motors that are very knock sensitive.  Ethanol has a higher resistence to knock and in some cases on board computers can get a little more aggressive with the timing resulting in a slight mileage decrease under acceleration.  At a constant speed the mileage drop off should be roughly the equivelent of the energy difference in a properly running vehicle.