The city stole our signs

[grahambino]

variable ROWs ftl.
ROWs on streets often & do vary. 8' - 12' from curb is just a general rule of thumb to follow.

Im sure the CoT has all this on file and is public information @ public works if youre that interested in finding out.  

[RecycleMichael]

Title 51 of the Building Codes, Section 3102.16, says that no sign shall be permitted in the right-of-way of a street under any circumstances, except as provided in Section  Title 27, Chapter 13 allows for the issuance of a citation for placing signs in the rights-of-way.

City inspectors have been instructed to remove all signs located on the public right-of-way. Where the right-of-way line is not clearly determined, the inspectors will pick up all signs inside the power line or fence line extension. If there is no power line or fence line, the inspector will pick up all signs within 12 feet behind the curb line.

[sgrizzle]

Well I find it INCREDIBLY to believe that in this particular area, someone carried around a plot and verified the city ROW extended beyond the 12 foot maximum norm, especially given the fact that would put the ROW well into the fenceline of the neighborhood.

Hopefully no-one puts any signs in their backyard.

The city of tulsa has their forms on line for permits and licenses. None are applicable to garage sales. I called the "one-stop permit center" and talked to several people and was transferred 3 times before being forwarded to a phone of someone on vacation. The first person I talked to didn't believe there was a permit required for a garage sale sign.

The city code:
http://www.cityoftulsa.org/OurCity/Ordinances/Title51.asp
States that NO signage is allowed in the ROW unless allowed by section 3102.12.4 which DOESN'T EVEN EXIST. Therefore, there is no "permit" for garage sale signs according to the city, they are just illegal.

The city and the signdanistas need to properly align their waterfowl before launching any new crusades, no matter how honorable their motives may be.

[TheArtist]

This is one reason I do not pick up any of those signs. If the rule can vary from 2' to 60' how am I to know if it is legal or not? I am not going to go and check every time I see a sign.  How would I know if it had a permit or not?  Call? get the ol phone transfer thing etc.? Perhaps they could place a sticker on the sign when they get permission. Anyone caught using a phony sticker,,, off with their heads.

[TulsaTV]

So far:

No signs allowed WITHIN the right-of-way.

If the right-of-way line is not clearly determined, the effective line is the greater of 12 feet, wherever the power lines fall (so to speak) and the "fence line extension" (whose fence line? Michael, can you clarify this?)

I believe there is an additional restriction of 10 feet away from a high power line or condenser.

Any other restrictions?

The Columbus Neighborhood Association here in Tulsa has a reasonable, common-sense approach:

"Signs advertising an occasional Weekend Garage Sale (garage sales that are not a regular daily/weekly/monthly occurrence) within Columbus residential neighborhood may be posted on the right-of-way throughout the day(s) of the sale, not to exceed 48 hours. Signs advertising garage sales outside Columbus residential neighborhood are not permitted. Responsibly maintain the sign and remove it within two hours after the sale."

[NellieBly]

There was a number on the news this morning where to call to get a sign permit. I believe the one stop permit place is for building permits. I never advertise on a stick so I wouldn't know or have never had the need to know. I would start at the MAC. Sharun McLemore spent a lot of time marking the ROW where they applied to this event. We cleaned signs basically from Lewis to Sheridan on 11th, 15th, 21st and 31st. Other vols did other areas. She marked the lines for us and if we were in doubt we called her and she was the final decider.
The point of the sweep was to remove ALL signs.

[TulsaTV]

Ms. McLemore (596-7215) told us that we could pick up the metal signs only, no charge, at 4122 E. Mohawk Blvd on Wednesday between 8 am and 3 pm. Phone number for that facility is 591-4069.

[RecycleMichael]

The city has done a good job in trying to clean the city rights-of-way while being respectful of personal property. They have a tough job trying to enforce rules that were ignored most of the last five years.

I give credit to Mayor Taylor, Councilor Martinson and the Tulsa Community Foundation for recognizing that this makes Tulsa look terrible. They have each stepped up with their resources and are addressing the problem. I hope this past weekend's cleanup is just one of many and that they keep trying things and finding solutions, especially between now and the August golf tournament.

This thread is proof that what we need next is some real public education on sign rules, right-of-way, fines for illegal signs, etc. The person you referred to, Sharun McLemore, is a perfect person for the job. She totally gets the intent and seems full of energy and ideas. I hope that she gets the support from her supervisors that she needs.

I am getting some maps from INCOG for my Neighborhood Association that show the exact right-of-way for the area. We want to keep signs out, but want to do it right.

We live in a beautiful place. Don't allow people to ruin the appeal just so they can make a quick buck.

I refuse to do business with any company that intentially breaks the law and I encourage people to call the phone number on the sign and tell them to stop it.

[jne]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

The city has done a good job in trying to clean the city rights-of-way while being respectful of personal property. They have a tough job trying to enforce rules that were ignored most of the last five years.

I give credit to Mayor Taylor, Councilor Martinson and the Tulsa Community Foundation for recognizing that this makes Tulsa look terrible. They have each stepped up with their resources and are addressing the problem. I hope this past weekend's cleanup is just one of many and that they keep trying things and finding solutions, especially between now and the August golf tournament.

This thread is proof that what we need next is some real public education on sign rules, right-of-way, fines for illegal signs, etc. The person you referred to, Sharun McLemore, is a perfect person for the job. She totally gets the intent and seems full of energy and ideas. I hope that she gets the support from her supervisors that she needs.

I am getting some maps from INCOG for my Neighborhood Association that show the exact right-of-way for the area. We want to keep signs out, but want to do it right.

We live in a beautiful place. Don't allow people to ruin the appeal just so they can make a quick buck.

I refuse to do business with any company that intentially breaks the law and I ecourage people to call the phone number on the sign and tell them to stop it.

I didn't want you at my garage sale anyway!

[RecycleMichael]

Garage sales are an interesting twist. Most garage sale signs are picked up because the owner doesn't want people coming to their house after the sale is over. I suspect that most garage sale signs are out less than 48 hours, many less than eight hours.

But just because they are out only a few hours are are clearly not intended to be an on-going business does not make them any less illegal.

I admit that I have pulled many, many signs out of the ground and have for years. I have almost never pulled a garage sale sign up and rarely pulled up a real estate sign up...only pulling them when they have clearly been abandonded. I know that is selective on my part, but they don't inspire me to pull over like the others do.

[TulsaTV]

Since you are unquestionably right that we need some real public education on sign rules, can you make a definitive statement about garage sale signs: legal if properly placed, or always illegal as Nellie insists?

If no one is able or willing to lay it out in plain language, how can we expect a bunch of volunteers to get it right?

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

I refuse to do business with any company that intentially breaks the law and I encourage people to call the phone number on the sign and tell them to stop it.

I figure most people who use the signs are fly-by-nighters anyway because they can't afford legal outdoor, print or electronic media.  Most all seem to have a cell phone exchange as well.  I don't make a habit of doing business where there is a trailer hitch attached to the building. []

[iplaw]

quote:The point of the sweep was to remove ALL signs.

Even if placed legally with a permit?  How would you know if they were legal or not, or do you even care?  This statement makes me think that you don't.

[TulsaTV]

Recap and postscript:

Sharun McLemore, the neighborhood inspector who organized the sign removal event, told us by phone that we could pick up our metal signs at the facility near Mohawk Park.

Turns out the signs weren't there, though many other metal business signs were, including realtors' yard signs that were likely removed from homes for sale.

NellieBly, a volunteer, previously posted on this thread: "Volunteers were allowed to remove paper and plastic signs and any other signs were removed by city inspectors." That was corroborated by a worker at the Mohawk facility.

The worker, in discussing this on the phone, asked if our signs were 12' back. They were. She asked if they were behind the power lines. They were. She then said that they should have been OK. Sharun had stated 12' in the Tulsa World article without mentioning power or fence lines.

The worker's statement (and Sharun's) also conflicts with RecycleMichael's earlier statement that volunteers were told to go to the fenceline.

Our signs were probably grabbed by overzealous volunteers and chunked into the dumpster.

If the city's intent is to apply a permit system to all signs, then someone like Sharun or RecycleMichael needs to explicitly say so. Then there can be an above-board dialog about it.

These neighborhood garage sales are like block parties in helping neighbors get to know each other and building a sense of community. It is counterproductive to torpedo them like this. I heard from some very angry people on my block.

Turning loose an army of volunteers who are either overzealous or lacking a clearly-defined mission may bring neighborhoods together--but in anger.

[RecycleMichael]

I think you bring up many good points.

I personally like garage sales. There is always a need for usable items to find new homes. If you think of the lifecycle of a product, there are many steps...from manufacturer, to wholesaler to retailer to used reseller.

Many items are still just as good as new when sold at a garage sale (or on e-bay). I bought some small antique mirrors at a garage sale for my daughter's room a few years ago. I think it is neat to envision all the other reflections that mirror has shown over the many years.

But where do you draw the line when allowing signs?

If you say garage sale signs can be placed next to the sidewalk on a busy arterial, how can you discriminate against the guy trying to sell his used car? If you say that all real estate signs are ok, how do you say no to the guy selling puppies from his backyard?

We probably all agree that a real estate open house sign is acceptable for a day, but my neighborhood was recently blanketed by some guy who stapled a sign on every utility pole at each major intersection saying he buys houses.

How do you write an ordinance that allows one kind of sign in the right-of-way, but prohibits others? And, equally perplexing, how do you get a city council to approve an ordinance that restricts signs when each of them put out signs during the election cycle? I have worked on many campaigns (even a couple for republican friends) and I only remember two times where candidates stressed to their volunteers the importance of keeping their signs in legal places. Those two candidates were Jeannie McDaniel and Kathy Taylor. Jeannie went so far as to personally pick up her signs after the election from each house.

I believe the city is trying to address the problem and I am supportive of their efforts. I believe you when you say that your signs were legally placed and I trust that the city will amend the training procedures to make sure that volunteers don't make the same mistake again.