Our Situation Has Become a National Story

[OUGrad05]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

I'm flummoxed as to why funding for commuter rail isn't being discussed as a part of the streets package.  In all this talk of repair versus widening, is transit not even on the table?  And why not?

Because in many areas with much larger populations and denser areas it is not profitable so their thinking is why do it here?  

I'm in favor of a light rail system but I also dont want it to be a tax dollar sink with the roads in the condition they're in.  I would right light rail from Owasso to downtown so long as the trains were clean, on time and it wasn't a means of transport only for the low lifes.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

quote:Originally posted by buckeye

Hind sight is 20/20 and all that...in other words, useless to retroactively criticize decisions that were well-made in their time.  Sure, we know it's not going to work well anymore, but all the bellyaching here, in the press and peppering the internet at large makes me annoyed.

Far more people use it as an excuse to ***** up a storm than to make sensible suggestions for the future.

That said, there's some good stuff going on in this thread.

Buckeye, you hit the bullseye, for lack of a better expression.  I absolutely agree, complaining only takes time away from planning.  

Without further hesitation: my main idea for improving public transportaion in Tulsa is the implementation of a streetcar system-- this allows the use of existing arterial streets (no eminent domain needed), and differentiates the product of public transportation to something more than just a means of getting from point A to point B.  A blunt example: many people don't ride the Tulsa Transit bus system because of its low-class perception.  Streetcars have a nostalgic and tourist appeal, which can result in a wider ridership market.  Furthermore, the higher the quantity of public transportation seats demanded, the higher the city can charge for ticket prices.  So, more people riding + higher ticket prices = much much more public transportation revenue, and therefore, possible revenue to maintain our ailing street/utility infrastructure.  Not to mention the fact that public transportation supports walkable urban neighborhoods, which help reduce suburban sprawl.  I think streetcars are possibly viable in the following locations:
a) along Riverside Dr., between the park and the street, from 18th St. to the 96th St. Jenks bridge.
b) along Peoria Ave. from 6th St. to I-44.
c) along 6th St. from Peoria Ave. into Downtown.
d) along 21st St. from Peoria Ave. to Yale Ave.
e) along 11th St. from Harvard Ave. into Downtown, and across the 11th St. bridge into the West Side.
f) along 41st St. from Peoria Ave. to Sheridan Rd.
g) Within Downtown: along Cincinnati and Detroit Avenues, from OSU-Tulsa to 11th St.  Along 1st and 2nd Streets, from Denver Ave. to Greenwood Ave.  Along Denver Ave., from 1st St. to 18th St.

I'll try to post a map with my route.

I like the street car vision. Don't forget the corridors around the hospitals. Utica from 244 to 31st. And around St.Francis and Regional Medical. Much of the traffic congesting Utica Square is medical related.

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

quote:Originally posted by buckeye

Hind sight is 20/20 and all that...in other words, useless to retroactively criticize decisions that were well-made in their time.  Sure, we know it's not going to work well anymore, but all the bellyaching here, in the press and peppering the internet at large makes me annoyed.

Far more people use it as an excuse to ***** up a storm than to make sensible suggestions for the future.

That said, there's some good stuff going on in this thread.

Buckeye, you hit the bullseye, for lack of a better expression.  I absolutely agree, complaining only takes time away from planning.  

Without further hesitation: my main idea for improving public transportaion in Tulsa is the implementation of a streetcar system-- this allows the use of existing arterial streets (no eminent domain needed), and differentiates the product of public transportation to something more than just a means of getting from point A to point B.  A blunt example: many people don't ride the Tulsa Transit bus system because of its low-class perception.  Streetcars have a nostalgic and tourist appeal, which can result in a wider ridership market.  Furthermore, the higher the quantity of public transportation seats demanded, the higher the city can charge for ticket prices.  So, more people riding + higher ticket prices = much much more public transportation revenue, and therefore, possible revenue to maintain our ailing street/utility infrastructure.  Not to mention the fact that public transportation supports walkable urban neighborhoods, which help reduce suburban sprawl.  I think streetcars are possibly viable in the following locations:
a) along Riverside Dr., between the park and the street, from 18th St. to the 96th St. Jenks bridge.
b) along Peoria Ave. from 6th St. to I-44.
c) along 6th St. from Peoria Ave. into Downtown.
d) along 21st St. from Peoria Ave. to Yale Ave.
e) along 11th St. from Harvard Ave. into Downtown, and across the 11th St. bridge into the West Side.
f) along 41st St. from Peoria Ave. to Sheridan Rd.
g) Within Downtown: along Cincinnati and Detroit Avenues, from OSU-Tulsa to 11th St.  Along 1st and 2nd Streets, from Denver Ave. to Greenwood Ave.  Along Denver Ave., from 1st St. to 18th St.

I'll try to post a map with my route.

I like the street car vision. Don't forget the corridors around the hospitals. Utica from 244 to 31st. And around St.Francis and Regional Medical. Much of the traffic congesting Utica Square is medical related.

Add a few street car routes to S.E. Tulsa and you might be able to sell it. Where some of the streets need to be widened, there would be room for street car tracks.  At the $15 million/mile that someone mentioned to widen what we have out here we probably could start a real trolley system (steel rails, no rubber tires please).

As far as the street cars being private companies, they typically were in the early 20th century.  Then publicly subsidized roads for buses and autos helped make that impossible to continue. Electric rail typically had to maintain the portion of the streets they used AND had to pay franchise fees to citys. Too much money going to the towns and cities to remain profitable.

[Matthew.Dowty]

Hey Patrick,

What is the feasibility of installing dual sets of rails in the streets that are planned to be completely rebuilt in the proposed infrastructure plan?

This can't be that expensive.  Little El Reno did this for their tourist street car.

It would be a forward thinking thing to do and save money in the long term.

And no they wouldn't have to be rough.  If the rails are integrated into the street from the beginning, they are flush with the surface.  You barely feel them when you drive over them.  

Matt

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

Let's take Bill's widening money and buy us a friggin' train!

+1

[nathanm]

quote:Originally posted by dsjeffries

quote:Originally posted by UrbanPlanner

We could always have a private company come forward and operate a mass transit system in Tulsa. I just spent a month in Japan (mainly in the city of Kyoto) and all the mass transit systems there are owned by private companies.

Kyoto had rail service lines that went out to the small country towns much like what Bartlesville and Muskogee are to Tulsa, and it also had subway lines that went out from the main rail lines. A subway/rail system could work in Tulsa. Kyoto only has about a million people and was not that much more dense then parts of Tulsa.

Here's a map of what I think could be a good transit system. Blue lines are light rail type and the red lines are subway lines.
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=116109457081287172010.00044f7f0991271ed885f&ll=36.211039,-95.534363&spn=1.030452,2.384033&z=9

I like your plan... However, the railroad tracks leading to Skiatook from downtown Tulsa have been turned into a walking/biking trail [B)].

And so long as they let you take yourself and your bike on the train that they put back in that right of way, I'd be quite happy to see rail. Well, presuming that it ran more than twice a day.

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by nathanm
And so long as they let you take yourself and your bike on the train that they put back in that right of way, I'd be quite happy to see rail. Well, presuming that it ran more than twice a day.

That should be possible but be sure to bring it up in the planning stages.  Many of the light rail operations around the country have provisions for bicycles.  Not all are equal.

[shadows]

The tragic outcome of building an unplanned city is it creates clutter by intertwining business with residential areas without a terminal destination,  There is no solution for a feasible self sustaining system of mass transportation for T-town.  Oklahoma will always be of small towns scattered along the expressways.

The alarm is falling on deft ears as the planners of the large corporations are establishing their retail outlets in the suburbs and with them goes the sales taxes.   We have become dependant on this source to feed our blotted bureaucracy, thus mass transportation will not be economy feasible if we anticipate the bringing back the milk and bread business to a scattering of destinations when the same source is available in their suburbs.  

We are making every effort to tax ourselves into prosperity and in the future there is an indication we will join our place in history with the pony express and stage coach.    

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by shadows


The tragic outcome of building an unplanned city is it creates clutter by intertwining business with residential areas without a terminal destination,  There is no solution for a feasible self sustaining system of mass transportation for T-town.  Oklahoma will always be of small towns scattered along the expressways.

The alarm is falling on deft ears as the planners of the large corporations are establishing their retail outlets in the suburbs and with them goes the sales taxes.   We have become dependant on this source to feed our blotted bureaucracy, thus mass transportation will not be economy feasible if we anticipate the bringing back the milk and bread business to a scattering of destinations when the same source is available in their suburbs.  

We are making every effort to tax ourselves into prosperity and in the future there is an indication we will join our place in history with the pony express and stage coach.    

The intertwining of business and residential areas is one of the most important things in encouraging public transport. In fact research has shown that it's more important than density.

While I'd like to see Tulsa much more dense, public transport can work in Tulsa. It has to be adapted for Tulsas needs, what works in NY won't necessarily work in Tulsa. However I am in no doubt that if the city took a holistic approach twinning planning and transport together Tulsa could have a viable, effective, usable and cost efficient public transport system.

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by Red Arrow

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

quote:Originally posted by buckeye

Hind sight is 20/20 and all that...in other words, useless to retroactively criticize decisions that were well-made in their time.  Sure, we know it's not going to work well anymore, but all the bellyaching here, in the press and peppering the internet at large makes me annoyed.

Far more people use it as an excuse to ***** up a storm than to make sensible suggestions for the future.

That said, there's some good stuff going on in this thread.

Buckeye, you hit the bullseye, for lack of a better expression.  I absolutely agree, complaining only takes time away from planning.  

Without further hesitation: my main idea for improving public transportaion in Tulsa is the implementation of a streetcar system-- this allows the use of existing arterial streets (no eminent domain needed), and differentiates the product of public transportation to something more than just a means of getting from point A to point B.  A blunt example: many people don't ride the Tulsa Transit bus system because of its low-class perception.  Streetcars have a nostalgic and tourist appeal, which can result in a wider ridership market.  Furthermore, the higher the quantity of public transportation seats demanded, the higher the city can charge for ticket prices.  So, more people riding + higher ticket prices = much much more public transportation revenue, and therefore, possible revenue to maintain our ailing street/utility infrastructure.  Not to mention the fact that public transportation supports walkable urban neighborhoods, which help reduce suburban sprawl.  I think streetcars are possibly viable in the following locations:
a) along Riverside Dr., between the park and the street, from 18th St. to the 96th St. Jenks bridge.
b) along Peoria Ave. from 6th St. to I-44.
c) along 6th St. from Peoria Ave. into Downtown.
d) along 21st St. from Peoria Ave. to Yale Ave.
e) along 11th St. from Harvard Ave. into Downtown, and across the 11th St. bridge into the West Side.
f) along 41st St. from Peoria Ave. to Sheridan Rd.
g) Within Downtown: along Cincinnati and Detroit Avenues, from OSU-Tulsa to 11th St.  Along 1st and 2nd Streets, from Denver Ave. to Greenwood Ave.  Along Denver Ave., from 1st St. to 18th St.

I'll try to post a map with my route.

I like the street car vision. Don't forget the corridors around the hospitals. Utica from 244 to 31st. And around St.Francis and Regional Medical. Much of the traffic congesting Utica Square is medical related.

Add a few street car routes to S.E. Tulsa and you might be able to sell it. Where some of the streets need to be widened, there would be room for street car tracks.  At the $15 million/mile that someone mentioned to widen what we have out here we probably could start a real trolley system (steel rails, no rubber tires please).

As far as the street cars being private companies, they typically were in the early 20th century.  Then publicly subsidized roads for buses and autos helped make that impossible to continue. Electric rail typically had to maintain the portion of the streets they used AND had to pay franchise fees to citys. Too much money going to the towns and cities to remain profitable.

SE Tulsa would certainly be in my long-term plan.  The focus of my initial route is connecting the main entertainment districts.  I also think a private street car line is feasible, given the startup cost of implementing a street car line.  My idea is a public/private partnership, that uses a benchmark financing system (i.e. build initial trolley line in a high-traffic zone, allow it to pay for itself and much of the cost of the next line.)  In many ways, a trolley car company could operate like a taxi company, although there would be a lot of kinks to work out concerning the fact that the trolley line would have to be owned by the city.  I think it's even possible for the Turnpike Authority to build/own/operate a trolley line-- the politics of the agreement would be similar to the Creek Turnpike in South Tulsa.

Just from brainstorming, I would think a private trolley company would have to have an agreement with the city to share the cost of implementing and maintaining new trolley lines.  The trolley company and the city could share ticket revenue and advertising space, however it should be noted that the agreement will almost always be a net positive for the city based on projections of increased property and tourism marketing values.  Streetcars bleed all sorts of great perceptions about a city, such as "progressive," "cosmopolitan," or "historic," all of which add a great deal of intangible value to the city as a whole.

[JoeMommaBlake]

I just spent several days in Seattle, Wa.

They have a combination of busses and streetcars, supported by an intricate system of overhead lines that spread like a spider-web across their downtown area.

Oddly, in Seattle, the streetcars look very similar to the busses. We took the bus around town  and enjoyed the ease of use.

I've said for some time, and it was reinforced by my trip, that Tulsa could very easily do the same thing.

I'd like to see a connected Riverside, Brookside, Utica, 18th and Boston, Cherry Street, Fairgrounds, 11th Street, 6th Street and of course downtown. It could be amazing. I'm all for it.

[booWorld]

Seattle's mass transit system wasn't easy to construct, and the same type of system in Tulsa would not be easy.

[Red Arrow]

For all the info you would probably care to read about Seattle's public transit system, visit:  http://www.lightrailnow.org  Then click on the search tab. Type in Seattle and you will get a bunch of stuff.

Or...if the following link works, just use it.


http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=seattle&sp-a=sp10031ca9&sp-advanced=1&sp-p=all&sp-w-control=1&sp-w=alike&sp-d=custom&sp-date-range=-1&sp-start-month=0&sp-start-day=0&sp-start-year=&sp-end-month=0&sp-end-day=0&sp-end-year=&sp-x=any&sp-c=10&sp-m=1&sp-s=0&sp-f=ISO-8859-1