What does Tulsa need?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

What do you mean by "internal competition"?

Not city to city competition but competition within Tulsa.  This bakery competing with those bakeries.  That furniture store competiting with a host of other furniture stores.  An intellectual, like you for example, being challenged by many other intellectuals instead of growing comfortable knowing that few of your neighbors have your intellectual grasp.

Let's say you're a decent bakery.  You have a captive audience because of the lack of viable alternatives.

When we first came back to Tulsa we made a concerted effort to find the best bakery in town.  We were really disappointed.  Everyone is still making the same tired layers cakes that they were making when I grew up here.  The only bakery we found that got close to the quality of the Bay Area bakeries was Queenies.  We basically didn't have anywhere else to go.  Now, as wonderful as Queenies is, the cakes we have bought there have been slightly flawed.  One had fallen.  But we didn't have a real alternative so the next time we wanted a cake we returned to Queenies.  If we were in the Bay Area we would have had seven or eight choices with comparable quality.  That kind of competition keeps you on your toes.

If you have a decent product in Tulsa you probably have a captive audience, so you don't have to grow or improve or be the best that you can be.  You can get by with a lot less.

Now, the flip side of this issue is that Tulsa's softness is certainly part of Tulsa's relaxed lifestyle.

I'm sorry you didn't get to visit my friend Mike Gresham's bakery, Blue Moon, before he passed away. Different than any other here in town. Your point is well taken. It has been suggested that Tulsa is a "one horse" town and it is true. Little real competition means no real innovation. People begin to accept mediocrity and that leads to boring. Stepping out of line with business ideas leads to phrases like, "non-conforming business" and the banks and real estate owners won't talk to you. The Channels definitely falls into the non conforming area.

We do seem to have a great variety of Mexican food and Oriental food though!

[TheArtist]

Competition as you have stated it may appear like a great thing, and it is, but the underlying reason we dont have that sort of competition is the lack of demand.  Lack of population to support cutting edge or high quality.  Even in my field as a mural artist there may be 3 artists at my level, including me, in the city.  The city can't support more unless there are more people who can afford or who want what we offer. There are times when I and those other artists dont have work, its not that we aren't any good, the demand just isn't there.

The corporate headquarters thing is very important.  But here we have a bit of a catch 22.  Those Corporate headquarters often are looking for a "cool" place to set up shop, an environment where they can attract high skilled, high level, workers and creative types and to enjoy themselves. However if you are able to attract those types of young, entrepreneurs they will start the companies that will be the "corporate headquarters" of tomorrow. Like the 22yo who just sold a company he started like myspace for over a billion dollars.  Having that, creative, hip, urban environment that caters to those people will go a long way in both starting new companies and attracting more. But, then we are back to how do we create or nurture that lol?  Colleges?  Research facilities? Creating great amenities along the river? Nurturing our historic buildings and downtown as tourist and entertainment venues? etc.



I can think of several ideas that would absolutely make Tulsa a destination, an interesting city that would draw not only young people but people of all ages, and at the same time make the standard of living for the people who already live here skyrocket.  

IMAGINE (lol) OSU Tulsa as a vibrant anchor to downtown, its closeness to Blue Dome and Brady districts turbo charging those into walkable entertainment/arts/living areas full of entrepreneural business start ups and hip places to live.

Imagine... The cathedral square with shops, restaurants, beautiful fountain and square like the great ones of Europe.  Tours of the churches and historic buildings. Trolleys that take you to Cherry street, Brookside and the Philbrook/Utica Square/Woodward Park area. This would not only give Tulsa a great start for being a Tourist draw, but a way to entertain visitors and enjoyment for the people who live here, enticing even more people to move here.

The Philbrook to Woodward Park and Utica corridor have the start to be as nice as any tourist destination of any great old city. It just requires a few more things to anchor that area with more attractions to make it a, day destination.

Start the day at Villa Philbrook. Then move on to the Tulsa Historical Society mansion. (which needs funds to renovate the old mansion, you can't tour it at the moment)  Next door the Garden Society Mansion is a beautiful building but needs a new North Wing redesign into a grand ballroom with an elegant restaurant having crystal chandeliers and high arched windows facing the Rose Garden, add on a larger greenhouse in the back to tour as well.  A pair of stone urns and sculpture in the rose garden to add that extra touch of interest.  A large stone gazebo for architectural interest in Woodward Park.  After Touring the homes and gardens I can see the homes just N of Woodward Park along 21st would making great little art galleries and shops. You could then walk up 21st to Utica Square enjoying the galleries along the way, or take a trolley or buggy ride.  I mean the potential this city has with just a few adjustments and modicum of expense is just mind blowing. Adding a few extra things to anchor that area so that you could really spend some time enjoying several nice venues in one spot would create a true destination and spur other like development in the area.  If you could see what I can imagine for that area and Cathedral Square. We could quite easily turn Tulsa back into the Paris of the Midwest.  

Combine the above with some contemporary, hip, river development, and some funky architecture, lofts etc. in downtown and other areas and you would have an environment that would attract a large swath of different types and ages.  Btw lots of young creative types love history and old world beauty as well. The best attractive places to live have both to enjoy.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Competition as you have stated it may appear like a great thing, and it is, but the underlying reason we dont have that sort of competition is the lack of demand.  Lack of population to support cutting edge or high quality.  Even in my field as a mural artist there may be 3 artists at my level, including me, in the city.  The city can't support more unless there are more people who can afford or who want what we offer. There are times when I and those other artists dont have work, its not that we aren't any good, the demand just isn't there.

That may be true in your field but not the necessarily the rest of the city. We are not a burg. How do you explain the proliferation of Oriental and Mexican restaurants, coffee shops and cell phone stores? Open the phone book(s) and check population dependent categories for the last few years. A category swells (like used auto parts) and then the major players merge and the category shrinks. And Tulsa has as many cars per capita as what...LA? I know lots of factors are in play but you know, Tulsa just doesn't tolerate too much competition. Why? I think a lot of small businesses and their investors are not patient enough to grow a company. They want big money and if its not there they bulldoze their competitors, gobble them up or close up shop. Everyones looking for the big score.

[Hometown]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

Here's a good WaPo story about the handful of "Brain-gain" cities that are pulling away from the rest of us in a knowledge-based economy.  The usual suspects, btw:  Seattle, Austin, Atlanta, Boston, Denver, Minneapolis, San Diego, San Francisco, Washington, and Raleigh and Durham, N.C.

Exerpts:

quote: Long is part of an elite intercity migration that is rapidly remaking the way American cities rise and fall. In the 2000 Census, demographers found what they describe as a new, brain-driven, winner-take-all pattern in urban growth.

"A pack of cities is racing away from everybody else in terms of their ability to attract and retain an educated workforce," said Bruce Katz, director of the Center on Urban and Metropolitan Policy at the Brookings Institution. "It is a sobering trend for cities left behind."...

...The rising tide of well-schooled talent has created a self-reinforcing cycle. Newcomers such as Sam Long have made a handful of cities richer, more densely populated and more capable of squeezing wealth out of the next big thing that a knowledge-based economy might serve up....

...Among the country's 100 largest metro areas, the 25 that entered the 1990s with the largest share of college graduates had, by the end of the decade, sponged up graduates at twice the rate of the other 75 cities, according to a Brookings analysis of the census...

We aren't making stuff like we used to.  The real growth in this country is coming in the service sector and in research in techology.

There's a small, but important, reference to venture capital.  In an indirect way, this is what the Stakeholders $100 million is.

But contrast this investment with what Bill Gates and Paul Allen are doing with similar amounts of money in Seattle:

quote: The city's two richest residents -- with the backing of the University of Washington and enthusiastic help from the city and county governments -- are bankrolling a bet that could supercharge the local economy for decades to come. Seattle is already a leader in biotech, but lags far behind Boston and San Francisco.

Paul Allen has spent $225 million of his own money to close the gap -- fast. "You have to be ready to take advantage of the next big cycle," Allen said.

He said Seattle has strung together all the beads on that thread: a research university, a cooperative city government, lots of venture capital and "you have to be able to attract people. . . . That is just not a problem in Seattle."

In the past decade, Allen has bought 50 acres in downtown Seattle for a biotech research center. His company, Vulcan, is transforming a sterile stretch of parking lots, used-furniture stores and badly designed streets into what is expected to be the nation's largest urban life-science campus.

It will have the capacity to employ 20,000 scientists and technicians, according to Vulcan. If Allen's plan works, about 10,000 of them would live in a pedestrian neighborhood at the south end of the city's Lake Union, amid new restaurants, nightclubs and retail stores surmounted by apartments.

To help Seattle create a critical mass of biotech talent, Gates donated $70 million this spring to the University of Washington to build departments of genome science and bioengineering. For nearly a decade, Gates has used his money and his fame to recruit eminent biotech scientists from around the country.

"Gates and Allen are giving the city a real forward momentum," said Leroy Hood, whom Gates lured from the California Institute of Technology to start a biotechnology department at the University of Washington. "In 10 years, I think Boeing will be irrelevant to Seattle."

Think about the gravity of that last quote.  Seattle is arguably the biggest aerospace city in the world.  And these guys believe that they can make biotech even more important to Seattle in just 10 short years.

Is it that unreasonable to think that we couldn't use higher education spending to stake out our own little high-tech sector?  Its really too bad, because folks like the Stakeholders have enormous political clout, the kind of clout we need to take on the Board of Regents and create a massive state school in Tulsa.  They'd be the ideal candidates for a project like this, but they have chosen a different course.  

Mr. Little, you know I have a lot of respect for your ideas but Tulsa's rich folks have shown a lot less imagination and community spirit than their counterparts elsewhere.  In fact I think they are a big part of the problem.  Other people on this forum have cried about the good old boy system holding us back.  Our rich folks are the good old boys.

Now I'm pragmatic and practical and I certainly understand the value of power.  And we'll always have some rich folks around who are out to prove something.  But honestly Tulsa's middle class needs to learn to believe in its own value and latent power.

20 directed and motivated participants in this forum could get a great deal done in this town.  The problem is finding 20 of us who are willing to make the sacrifice.

[pmcalk]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

Here's a good WaPo story about the handful of "Brain-gain" cities that are pulling away from the rest of us in a knowledge-based economy.  The usual suspects, btw:  Seattle, Austin, Atlanta, Boston, Denver, Minneapolis, San Diego, San Francisco, Washington, and Raleigh and Durham, N.C.

Exerpts:

quote: Long is part of an elite intercity migration that is rapidly remaking the way American cities rise and fall. In the 2000 Census, demographers found what they describe as a new, brain-driven, winner-take-all pattern in urban growth.

"A pack of cities is racing away from everybody else in terms of their ability to attract and retain an educated workforce," said Bruce Katz, director of the Center on Urban and Metropolitan Policy at the Brookings Institution. "It is a sobering trend for cities left behind."...

...The rising tide of well-schooled talent has created a self-reinforcing cycle. Newcomers such as Sam Long have made a handful of cities richer, more densely populated and more capable of squeezing wealth out of the next big thing that a knowledge-based economy might serve up....

...Among the country's 100 largest metro areas, the 25 that entered the 1990s with the largest share of college graduates had, by the end of the decade, sponged up graduates at twice the rate of the other 75 cities, according to a Brookings analysis of the census...

We aren't making stuff like we used to.  The real growth in this country is coming in the service sector and in research in techology.

There's a small, but important, reference to venture capital.  In an indirect way, this is what the Stakeholders $100 million is.

But contrast this investment with what Bill Gates and Paul Allen are doing with similar amounts of money in Seattle:

quote: The city's two richest residents -- with the backing of the University of Washington and enthusiastic help from the city and county governments -- are bankrolling a bet that could supercharge the local economy for decades to come. Seattle is already a leader in biotech, but lags far behind Boston and San Francisco.

Paul Allen has spent $225 million of his own money to close the gap -- fast. "You have to be ready to take advantage of the next big cycle," Allen said.

He said Seattle has strung together all the beads on that thread: a research university, a cooperative city government, lots of venture capital and "you have to be able to attract people. . . . That is just not a problem in Seattle."

In the past decade, Allen has bought 50 acres in downtown Seattle for a biotech research center. His company, Vulcan, is transforming a sterile stretch of parking lots, used-furniture stores and badly designed streets into what is expected to be the nation's largest urban life-science campus.

It will have the capacity to employ 20,000 scientists and technicians, according to Vulcan. If Allen's plan works, about 10,000 of them would live in a pedestrian neighborhood at the south end of the city's Lake Union, amid new restaurants, nightclubs and retail stores surmounted by apartments.

To help Seattle create a critical mass of biotech talent, Gates donated $70 million this spring to the University of Washington to build departments of genome science and bioengineering. For nearly a decade, Gates has used his money and his fame to recruit eminent biotech scientists from around the country.

"Gates and Allen are giving the city a real forward momentum," said Leroy Hood, whom Gates lured from the California Institute of Technology to start a biotechnology department at the University of Washington. "In 10 years, I think Boeing will be irrelevant to Seattle."

Think about the gravity of that last quote.  Seattle is arguably the biggest aerospace city in the world.  And these guys believe that they can make biotech even more important to Seattle in just 10 short years.

Is it that unreasonable to think that we couldn't use higher education spending to stake out our own little high-tech sector?  Its really too bad, because folks like the Stakeholders have enormous political clout, the kind of clout we need to take on the Board of Regents and create a massive state school in Tulsa.  They'd be the ideal candidates for a project like this, but they have chosen a different course.  

Again, we are in agreement.  I think something like this would be a huge benefit to Tulsa--it could change our "trajectory."  Something like Colorado would also be great:  http://renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=45158.  By funding research of alternative fuels through the university, Colorado has guarenteed that their universities will remain top-notch AND high-paying, next-wave energy jobs will locate in and around those universities.

I tend to think that young people are not so irresponsible as has been portrayed.  Yes, they want great cities, but they also look towards their future.  They want to be in "cutting-edge" cities--where their intellect will be the most challenged.  If they are studying medicine, they will look to hospitals that provide them the latest research, the best opportunities.  People went to Silicon valley, not because it was cool, but because it was the best place to be for computer geeks.

Again, I am not saying we should forget about developing the river, creating a cool downtown, etc.... Nor am I saying that any one demographic should be catered to, at the exclusion of others.  But more and more, I believe that the answer to what Tulsa needs may lie in the creation of a truly great college/research component.

[YoungTulsan]

I think eliminating as much squalor as possible, and having roads that don't compress your spine every time you go to quiktrip, would be a good start in making the city "cooler" to the "YPs".  There are many parts of Tulsa that just look like a giant version of some small hick town in the middle of the country.  

Some of the stuff we have going on right now in the downtown area might take off tho, we just need to wait for it to be completed.   Tossing a 25k student OSU Tulsa in there with the arena, east end, etc and it could suddenly be a boom area.  But that would probably be 5-10 years down the line.

[PonderInc]

I'm one of those people who left Tulsa to go somewhere "cool."  For me, this meant "anywhere with mountains."  I saved up some money, packed my car and moved to Colorado.  Got an place to live and then a job (in that order).  So it does happen.  

Most of my high school friends went to college out of state and never returned.  If they did come back, it was usually to be near family/aging parents, etc.

When I think of what makes a city cool, for me it has something to do with an energy and vibe that the locals exude.  Portland is cool.  Austin is cool (though with far too many expressways...).  There's a funky joy and openness.  An adventurous attitude.  A freedom to be genuine, and not so self-conscious.  It's a willingness to try new things, and not just hide fearfully behind the status quo.  

But it's also something that is manifest in the city's itself.  Cool cities, for me, are ones that respect their historic and older areas.  They integrate into that fabric instead of calling it "functionally obsolete" and tearing it down.  They tend to have lots of greenspace/parks that are full of people who are walking and biking and playing.  I don't know if it's a chicken or an egg, but they attract people who care about beauty and nature and architectural detail and being able to walk and bike...and who are searching for something different than 71st and Mingo.  Something interesting and unique.  

I feel hopeful when I go to the Brady and Blue Dome districts.  Or 18th and Boston, or Brookside or even Cherry Street (though it's becoming a bit too frou-frou for me...too many antique stores & not enough funkiness).  I feel hopeful when I see the potential around the 6th and Peoria district.  I get excited to see everything happening around 3rd and Kenosha.

All of these areas are cool and successfull b/c of the efforts of individual risk-takers...people with creativity, passion, and a hopeful exuberance.  I see these examples as the seeds of Tulsa's future.  While the official bureaucracies try to manufacture cool in their typical slow, stodgy, uninspired way...cool people are making it happen today, right now, on their own. (Almost in spite of the city's official efforts ...or whatever it is that DTU does.)

[pmcalk]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

I think eliminating as much squalor as possible, and having roads that don't compress your spine every time you go to quiktrip, would be a good start in making the city "cooler" to the "YPs".  There are many parts of Tulsa that just look like a giant version of some small hick town in the middle of the country.

With all due respect, I really doubt that YP's base their ideas of "coolness" on the adequacy of the streets.  Really, how many young people have you heard saying, "I'm moving to Austin--they've got the smoothest roads in the country there."  To the contrary, many of the "cool" spots of the past were pretty rundown when they became hotspots (eg, Haight-Ashbury).

I am not disagreeing that we should pay attention to infrastructure, but I believe that is for a different demographic than yps.

[Hometown]

Tulsa has a sun in capricorn and a moon in cancer.  Her sun and moon oppose each other.  This configuaration has always caused Tulsa to be insecure about what others think about her.  She has always looked outside of herself for some elusive approval.  That is the constant.  She might be the coolest spot on earth and she would still fuss over how others see her.

It looks to me like Tulsa's strategies have never yielded much.  It's her dumb luck that has made the difference.  Like discovery of oil.

Most of the changes my generation have brought to Tulsa have been flops.  The good news is that the '20s gave Tulsa so much that the city still derives its charm from what remains of its hey day.

There may already be a new migration underway that will bring some changes.  Look for returning Boomers.  Blacks returning from the north to the south (Tulsa's Black community has grown by 30 percent recently).  And Tulsa's vibrant Latin community is creating business where native Tulsans had displayed a poverty of imagination.

Rich folks swooping in and saving us?  Tulsa's got it share of rich folk out to prove something.  But honestly I think this is largely the same crowd that has lead us down the path of mediocrity.  New super rich players could certainly shake things up, like they did in Forth Worth in the '80s.  But I'm not hopeful.

What Tulsa doesn't have is a politically active and informed middle class to provide some checks and balances for its disappointing upper class.

[TheArtist]

Was working today, met and chatted with a couple of people who were from out of town who had recently moved to Tulsa.  They started mentioning how different Tulsa was, and so I stopped them, mentioned this forum and the arguments we have on here lol, and asked them their impressions as outsiders who have been here for a bit, what they think Tulsa needs and how its so different.  I stated that its hard for me to know their perspectives since I was raised here and dont really have a good sense of how things are different.  

They mentioned the culture shock thing, the guy from Cincinatti said how there he and friends would often go out to dinner around 9 or so and could easily stay till 12 or 1 talking and enjoying eachothers company. But here he found it so odd that you will start getting pushed out the door, even on a weekend around 9 or 10. He also mentioned that it probably wouldnt do any good to stay open late because they would lose money, the result of cultural differences. Said he laughed when confronted with the liquor laws thinking someone was pulling a joke on him.  They both mentioned the culture and attitudes here, especially the amount of religious type thinking that seems to keep people boxed into a limited mindset etc. etc.

I didn't press them on specifics but found that what they were saying sounded exactly like what I had heard from others. I havent lived in other places to understand what the differences are but they seem to be genuine because of the similarities of experiences expressed by so many I talk to from out of town.

The girl, who is an artist, from Dallas and Cali. mentioned how people here dont want to spend any money on things. And they both agreed that even though the locals think there are a lot of rich people here, that really there arent, that what we call money is a joke in coparison.  Specifically the guy mentioned he is wanting to get financing and support for an 80million dollar, Italianate style, river front development,
wants it to have underground parking , lots of water features,shopping, restraunts, retail, art galleries, and living above.  Said he asked people "in the business" locally who he should talk to, who the money was.  The local guy told him that there isnt any real money here other than the old money and trust funders, that the type of money he needs, the entreprenurial new money types, simply dont exist here. Yes there are a few people that have real money but they live off it, may donate some to have a new gym built for a shcool or whatever as a tax write off, but there isnt the kind of money you would find in, say, Dallas by people who are willing to take risks and follow a dream.  The guy has connections in Dallas and is hoping to get some to join wiht him to build that development here, but is working on getting the, I dont remember what term he used, basically a study done to see if such a development could actually make money in Tulsa.  


They both agreed that Tulsa has potential and has some great underutilized assetts, and that it is turning the Corner. However, grindingly Slooooooooow. lol.

[waterboy]

Yeah, its true. I used to play linebacker for the Dallas Cowboys and am really just visiting here while I look for someplace to build an underground replicating facility. Should take about 75million. But sheesh, I can't find anyone who has that scratch. Besides the culture here thinks replicated food is satanic. Go figure.[]

[RecycleMichael]

I think that Tulsa is grindingly slow only for some circles.

I can't believe how full our social calendar is, mostly because we have kids. We do high school football games in small towns to see nephews play, had a big event at the school with 300 people yesterday and dignitaries and went to the Opera this afternoon for a kids opera. We go to Driller  and TU games, have soccer every weekend, and have big parties at our house all the time with other parents and kids. We will go to probably six halloween parties again this year.

The people I hear complain about Tulsa nightlife usually are single and trying to start the evening too late. They all say the same thing, so it must be true. (Tulsa nightlife is an oxymoron, like jumbo shrimp).

What they need are some cool places that specialize in late night business. Those usually involve either alcohol or alcohol induced people.

They all believe what Tulsa needs to be "cooler" is to have more businesses that can make money a few hours a day, a few days a week serving liquor or serving drunks.

[pmcalk]

^I guess that is why I have never been cool.  Even in my young, single, childless days, I was never a late night person.  Don't get me wrong--I can handle my liquor, but lack of sleep turns me into a babling, incoherent idiot.  After midnight, I lose all sense of reason.  I look forward to the spring, when we "spring forward", and I can go to sleep an hour earlier.

I agree once you have kids, you can have quite a busy life.  We took the kids out to Bixby--pumpkin patch & petting zoo.  We opted for a movie instead of the opera--a little too expensive for us.  Once you throw in soccer, bike rides, getting ready for Halloween, we didn't have a moments rest this weekend.  Next weekend, I am sure our kids will drag us to the Oktoberfest.

[Hometown]

Next St. Patty's Day the Irish Bar on 15th Street should get a permit from the city to rope off its stretch of 15th and host a free St. Patty's Day celebration right there in front of the bar on the street.  It would make a great new tradition.  I'm not sure how the liquor laws work but the police should turn a blind eye to drinking in that area that night.  The Irish Bar and a few nearby non Irish bars should sell a lot of beer in honor of being young and having a blast in venerable Old Tulsa.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

I think that Tulsa is grindingly slow only for some circles.

I can't believe how full our social calendar is, mostly because we have kids. We do high school football games in small towns to see nephews play, had a big event at the school with 300 people yesterday and dignitaries and went to the Opera this afternoon for a kids opera. We go to Driller  and TU games, have soccer every weekend, and have big parties at our house all the time with other parents and kids. We will go to probably six halloween parties again this year.

The people I hear complain about Tulsa nightlife usually are single and trying to start the evening too late. They all say the same thing, so it must be true. (Tulsa nightlife is an oxymoron, like jumbo shrimp).

What they need are some cool places that specialize in late night business. Those usually involve either alcohol or alcohol induced people.

They all believe what Tulsa needs to be "cooler" is to have more businesses that can make money a few hours a day, a few days a week serving liquor or serving drunks.

Well if we are wanting to attract some of those young, creative, college age, entreprenurial, etc, etc, types.  They often dont have kids lol.  And its not about just having those places that stay open a few hours later.  The fact is that there arent enough of the people in this town to support a place staying open late.  THAT is more the problem, those kinds of people also visit, do and like, lots of similar things, have similar attitudes outlooks etc.  If your like those types of people in this town you are, well, pretty alone. And when those people visit here they see the lack of all those types of things and that type of people to connect with.  

BTW PMC, 12 is not late lol, except for in Tulsa perhaps.  I remember going to larger cities like Paris and the clubs not even opening the doors untill 12.  Quite a culture shock when you leave a club and its bright morning daylight after you are used to living here lol.  But there again from some outsiders points of view thats just one more small example of how different things are here.  No "one" of them may seem like a big deal, may seem rather a silly matter, BUT they point to an underlying mindset, or lack of, that affects the prevailing culture and attitudes of people here. The very fact that you think 12 is late is shocking and odd, but to you and most others here its completely normal and any other way of thinking would be odd and I would bet there are people on here who will say its stupid, and that very attitude and others like it, creates some of the negativity and "conservatism" that others encounter in this town.