Major League Soccer in Tulsa -- One question quiz

[Porky]

Ok USRufnex, here's my take and your much more knowledgeable on this stuff but here is my take anyways.

As much as I want to support the downtown area of Tulsa, the elitist are moving it's venues south along the river. And the elitist are obviously the ones that run Tulsa and they do not wish to address the problems with downtown because of their interest with the River Tax Project.

We can't do this in North Tulsa because of the gang problem and we can't do it in East Tulsa either for similar reasons because of the "white" trash element. Owasso would be nice but it's too far away.

That leaves us with three possibilities where soccer could be successful and quite frankly I think it would work in any of them.

Obviously first would be Jenks, with all the direction going that way because of the elitist of Tulsa. Broken Arrow would be strong as well, as they are looking into a Fair Grounds which would be in Wagoner County and rightly so. The other would be West Tulsa if the River Tax passes and it will, but the concern here is......West Tulsa and Jenks will still be in Tulsa County.

So If I had a suggestion, it would be getting with the fine people that manage Broken Arrow and you'll be happy to fine a huge base of investors willing to make your wishes finally come true......and rightly so!

[USRufnex]

Well Porky.  I just made a post with references to "Waiting for Godot" and an obscure 90s movie with Janeane Garafolo... so I'm actually trying to appeal to Tulsa's "elitists."  And I'm grateful to have been given a special "Midtown Elite Guest Pass."  It means the Spirit Bank ATM teller on 18th St. downtown will someday invite me to her "Secret Garden."  So, please don't ruin this for me...  []

Seriously, the problem is, I think you're using the same broad stroke to paint "elitists" that the Midtown people like to use to paint everyone outside their part of town as "suburban."

I never quite understood all the mileage Chris Medlock and Co. got out of the whole midtown elite thing anyway.... isn't half of Tulsa now considered Midtown?...  Cherry Street elite?  Sure, I believe that one.  Brookside elite?  Sure, why not?  They've got a Whole Foods, the bastards!... Florence Park elite?  Well, I did see a Ford Focus with a Kerry/Edwards bumper sticker there, but I also remember a time growing up when alot of the area around Skelly Stadium was pretty seedy... anybody remember when people used to let you park your car on their lawn for a few bucks for the big game...  

But, who are the Lortondale elite?... If there are elitists in Lortondale, does this mean it's only a matter of time before the Magic Circle elite surface in east Tulsa???  Oh wait, that's in Medlock's old district... my bad.

Is there someone in Broken Arrow or Jenks who has the $30 million for MLS's expansion fee?  Are they prepared for possible losses in the millions for the first few years?  Hey, if I had the $30mil for that fee, I'd be pushing for a location down the street from me right off hwy 169 and the BA... plenty of land and highly convenient.  But who would pay for this stadium... and how?

Let's be real here... the people with money and wealth make the rules.  And that's not just the case in Tulsa.  Based on that, I feel the best proposal so far was Global's initial TIF proposal downtown from late 2005...

MLS to expand to Seattle
League's 15th franchise will begin play in '09 season
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/soccer/09/28/seattle.mls/index.html

quote:SAN FRANCISCO (SI.com) -- Major League Soccer has settled on Seattle as its next expansion city, SI.com has learned. According to a league source, the new franchise will begin play for the 2009 season.

An official announcement will be made in the next two weeks, the source said. Seattle is already home to the Sounders of the United Soccer Leagues First Division (one rung below MLS).

According to an earlier report by the Herald News of New Jersey's Ives Galarcep, the Sounders ownership group will have a big hand in the new MLS club, and the expansion team will also be called the Sounders.

[pfox]

Seattle is a great location for expansion for MLS.  The demographics are perfect.

As far as Tulsa is concerned, I think there are a couple of models to consider.  While I'd love to imagine hopping on the tram to downtown, stopping at my local public house for a Guinness, and then trekking down a brownstone lined lane to an urban football pitch, I just don't see that in Tulsa's future.

Basically, there are two solutions. One is the model cities like Denver have used, which is to find a large area of land suitable for a stadium, parking, and lots of tournament soccer fields.  In Denver, the stadium is located in Commerce City, which is, as its name suggests, a "suburb" of office parks, distribution centers, and warehouses.  There was a lot of available, cheap land there, but essentially you go to the game and then leave, because there is no related development near the stadium.

The other option is for a residential suburb or a more suburban part of Tulsa to take ownership of this effort, like a Jenks or West Tulsa to incorporate a stadium as part of a larger plan for their community. They would design the stadium into a more "urban" setting, where nearby business would benefit from events and the influx of people to the community. The downside is that there is suddenly a lot of parking pressure on the community to accommodate these events.  People parking in the streets, or illegally or you have large areas of parking that are unused the majority of the time.

I recently went to the Denver stadium to watch the Denver Rapids.  The game was a blast. Great atmosphere, beautiful stadium, but as I mentioned above, there is nothing to do in Commerce City, so immediately after the game, we left.  They do have a "Cantina" in the stadium that is open before and after the game, but beyond that, nothing.

[Porky]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

Well Porky.....  

Have you ever considered the NSU campus in BA or are you wanting your soccer complex to be strictly professional?

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by Porky

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

Well Porky.....  

Have you ever considered the NSU campus in BA or are you wanting your soccer complex to be strictly professional?

Wouldn't have any problem at all with that... I bet Winnercomm wouldn't mind either, considering their Skycam facility would only be a mile or two away... too bad NEO/BA doesn't have a football team.

The Los Angeles Galaxy and Anschutz Entertainment Group partnered with Cal State-Dominguez Hills for the Home Depot Center in Carson, CA.

And, believe it or not, OKC sportscaster Dean Blevins reported in late 2003 that he thought OKC/Edmond had a "50/50 chance" to get in MLS.  OKC's two MLS exhibitions at Wantland drew 9300 and 7000 in spring 2003 & 2004, respectively.  I actually attended a public meeting at UCO where they showed some plans for "Phase I and Phase II" and got to shake Lamar Hunt's hand...  Express Sports' proposal was to partner with UCO in Edmond who already wanted to re-do Wantland Stadium with a $15mil facelift-- add additional funding to expand the stadium from 10k to 20k capacity and OKC coulda had MLS there.... here's a couple of pix of the refurb... your state tax dollars at work, in metro-OKC...


Problem was, the MLS team would have had to share dates with UCO's Div II football team and all three Edmond high schools... MLS expanded their regular season into Sept/Oct and Express Sports backed out...

I do wish Broken Arrow had an NAIA or Div II college football program at NEO/BA like Edmond has with UCO... but that whole "I wish Tulsa had a 4-year state school" should be saved for another thread... [B)]

***Pfox-- great pics.  I spent a summer in Central City back in '96 and saw my first MLS game at Mile High Stadium... still have my Colorado Rapids-Inaugural Season T-shirt.  []

[Porky]

I'll do some checking on that today with the University. I know they were looking for a sporting venue and the city of BA has been as well. Maybe the two of them can create something.

btw.....great pics Pfox!

[cannon_fodder]

Ok Ruf, you have actually made me want an MLS team in Tulsa.  I watch an MLS game every now and then on TV and like to catch a club game when we can get them.  The World cup a few years back was tons of fun as some of my friends are REALLY into soccer (they even play soccer!).

Every time I read one of your posts I get excited (I guess your enthusiasm is contagious) but I'm here to deliver a cold, hard truth:

MLS Cities:
Chicago
Columbus
Kansas City
Boston
New York
Toronto
LA
Denver
Dallas
Houston
LA (again)
SLC
and soon San Jose

The two smallest metro areas are SLC (metro 1.1 Million) and Columbus (metro 1.7 million).  So the MSA each have 300,000+ more people than Tulsa.  Those areas have high incomes (Columbus: $44,700, SLC $48,500).  About $+10,000 Tulsa's average. And there is not really any point in comparing Tulsa to any of the other cities on the list, the numbers just do not hold up.

Teams without MLS:  Portland, Seattle, San Antonio or Austin or El Paso, Albuquerque (fails most demographics but excels in Hispanic population), Minneapolis (populated & rich), Phoenix, Miami/Orlando/Tampa/Jacksonville/Tallahassee (now out of Florida), Atlanta, Las Vegas (who wants SOME pro sports)... So what I'm saying, is MLS has chosen its target audiences.  MSA > 1,000,000 and high incomes.  What's more, recently it has been demanding new high priced soccer only stadiums... something they are not likely to get in Tulsa but may get in the litany of cities I listed above.

While I still like the idea (I even read some of your posts on BigSoccer to try and keep up), I'm hard pressed to think of something Tulsa could do to woo MLS to town.  I'm not trying to be a nay sayer, just trying to be the voice of reason.  Keep shoveling news our way of any developments, but don't get your hopes too high. I think you know this, as you know more than anyone I can think of... I'm just stating the obvious.

[Kenosha]

One advantage Tulsa has compared to those other cities, Cannon, is that there is no other competition from other professional sports.  Even Columbus has an NHL team.  It might make Tulsa a more attractive expansion market, as such.

I wouldn't rule out the Evans Electric site as an appropriate place for a Soccer Stadium.  It has good proximity to Downtown, OSU Tulsa, and Greenwood/Brady districts.  It could work out nicely, particularly if there is a shared parking agreement with OSU-Tulsa.  It's only downfall is that access to that site is difficult from the highways.  It might require some thought from that perspective.  

[USRufnex]

It's been pretty strange how Tulsa keeps showing up on MLS lists... the demographics you cite have been the same for decades, yet MLS has been interested in Tulsa... I suppose it's possible it'll never happen... but if the last 13 years of history is any indication....

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11021929&postcount=22

quote:--Tulsa World, 1994-- Tulsa's sticking point is a playing site. The city has proposed playing in the University of Tulsa's Skelly Stadium, which would have to undergo from $1.5 million to $1.8 million in improvements to meet MLS criteria, Mitchell said. "We've had a lot of discussions about Skelly," said Alan Rothenberg, chairman of MLS, set to begin play in April 1995. "It has tremendous potential. But we need to iron out when and how it gets done."

To comply with league standards, clubs must play in a 20,000- to 30,000-seat stadium with a grass surface. Skelly has an articial surface and a capacity of 40,385. Other modifications to the facility must including widening the field, a change that could eliminate 4,000 seats.

TU would consider making alterations but is not prepared to help out financially, Mitchell said. TU athletic director Chris Small, the school's principal negotiator with MLS, was out of town and unavailable for comment."

Tulsa has the same issues with demographics they had back in '94... but this isn't the NFL or NBA we're talking about here... this league has Thursday night games on ESPN2... and I still think Tulsa's a better longterm market for MLS than Denver or KC... heck, Dallas's team plays in Frisco, TX, home of a Texas League team that plays the Drillers umpteen times per year...

A little story about MLS expansion from Indianapolis...
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11020045&postcount=19

quote:Our owners made a lot of mistakes - A LOT. But even if they'd done EVERYTHING right, it was going to be a tough sell in that market. You're unlikely to chip away at the limited corporate support that exists (most of which is already going to the Colts, Pacers, etc.) and you're not going to get a stadium built unless you just build it with your own money (and then you have the question of downtown vs. Hamilton County, yadda yadda yadda).

And building stadiums with your own money isn't a good deal for you, else more people would do it.

I wish you luck. I'd love for there to be an MLS team in Indianapolis. If I can help, let me know. Just know that you're up against it in a major, major way.

[perspicuity85]

Ruf-

Just wondering: how did Tulsa land the NASL team back in 1977?  Are any of the owners or management still around?  What about the players?  Do Victor Moreland or Iraj(forgive the spelling errors) still live in the Tulsa area?

[USRufnex]

...I used to have all the Tulsa Roughnecks Media Guides until a family member threw 'em in the trash in the 80s... thank god for ebay... I've recovered 3 of them...

from the Tulsa Roughnecks 1979 Media Guide

Club History
Roughnecks Find Home in Tulsa

"There is little doubt that the coming of a pro-soccer franchise in Tulsa began the day the Green Country Soccer Association was formed.  It's growth was the enabling factor to make Tulsa a ripe pro-soccer market.
 
The first attempt to bring pro-soccer to Tulsa was made by the Rainbo Baking Company three years ago (edit:1976) when it attempted to bring the Dallas Tornado and the St. Louis Stars to Skelly Stadium for an exhibition game as the culmination to Green Country Soccer's annual day.  The game unfortunately, did not come about, for various reasons.
 
The following year, the Chicago Sting did play a group of Oklahoma all-stars at LaFortune Stadium on a cold and windy Friday night.  A crowd of 4,500 people came out and met Rainbo's guest of the evening, superstar Kyle Rote, Jr.
 
Jerry Daugherty, a local Tulsa sports and soccer enthusiast, then started the original groundwork for a pro-soccer team to be based out of Tulsa.  He met several times with Tom Keeter, now Managing General Partner of the Tulsa Roughnecks and president of Rainbo Baking Co.; Tom Seymour, a local attourney and president of Green Country Soccer; and Phil Hughes, president of the Pepsi-Cola Bottling Co. of Tulsa.  These negotiations came to a dead end due to the lack of soccer knowledge of all concerned and the knowledge of where exactly they were heading.
 
Later in 1977, when such persons as Ward Lay, Jr., now the President of the Roughnecks; Phil Woosnam, Commissioner of the North American Soccer League; Daugherty; Noel Lemon, current Tulsa GM; and Bill Foulkes, now the coach, had visited Tulsa and had looked at the Skelly Stadium facility, they all proclaimed it "an absolute natural for NASL soccer."  A meeting was called at the Copa Hilton where several Tulsa investors met with Daugherty and Lay.  At that time Daugherty stated, "If any of you can get together with Ward or anybody else to bring professional soccer here, please feel free to make your own deal without me, because all I want is pro-soccer in this town."
 
Shortly thereafter, Lemon and Foulkes visited with Hughes, Seymour and Keeter.  Things then began to happen.  The NASL commissioner's office was informed that the interest in a pro-soccer team was very strong in Tulsa.  Many meetings occured among the above persons and Fred Latham, Jr., Tulsa groceryman, joined the group.
 
When Lay's Hawaiian group, as well as the Las Vegas Quicksilvers franchise, began looking for new locations, the Tulsa group asked them to come out and give their city a look.  The Tulsa businessmen arranged to have an NASL exhibition at Skelly Stadium.  Much to their delight and to almost everyone's surprise, the exhibition between the (edit:Tampa Bay)  Rowdies and the (edit:Dallas) Tornado drew a remarkable crowd of 11,100 people, played opposite the sixth and final game of the 1977 World Series, "Back to School" night and various Pee-Wee football games.
 
Needless to say, this opened some eyes at the NASL offices.  Las Vegas, however, soon withdrew from consideration.  Tulsa Tom Seymour also withdrew because he felt he had a committment to the Green Country Soccer Association and that his tie-in with pro-soccer might be a direct conflict of interest.  Keeter agreed.  Hughes also pulled out for much the same reasons.  Fred Latham, Jr., said to Keeter "If you still want it, I'm with you."
 
There was one chance left, and Noel Lemon "iced it" down with a call to Ward Lay in which he asked Lay to give Tulsa consideration.  Lay then contacted Keeter and the Hawaii franchise was on its way to America's most beautiful city, Tulsa, Okla."

[USRufnex]

Several people are still here... Victor Moreland started the Tulsa Nationals... Charlie Mitchell coached at NSU for years... I think Alek Skotarek and Steve Earle are still around... also, former New York Cosmos player Keith Eddy never suited up for Tulsa but ended up here and started the Tulsa Soccer Club... former GM Noel Lemon is still in Florida, I think, but has spoken with Tulsa media in the past and I'm sure would be someone who'd love to share his expertise, although it's been a LONG time since he's lived in Tulsa...

If we're on the subject of demographics, I read in Street & Smith's Sports Business Journal that Tulsa is the 5th "Most avid college football market"...

1.  Birmingham, AL
2.  Columbus, OH
3.  Oklahoma City
4.  Knoxville, TN
5.  Tulsa, OK

My position has always been that if OKC can be a suitable market for the NBA, then Tulsa is more than suitable for MLS... and the cost of buying an expansion team in MLS is $30mil while the cost of an expansion team in the NHL is $300mil... so add another $70mil for the stadium and its still one third the price of an NHL team...

Oh, and the reason Seattle's demographic succeeded in getting a team this time around???
It can be summed up in two words: Paul Allen.

10 Most Overextended Sports Markets:
http://www.bizjournals.com/edit_special/36.html?t=printable

1.  Tampa Bay
2.  Phoenix
3.  Denver
4.  Pittsburgh
5.  Kansas City
6.  St. Louis
7.  Milwaukee
8.  Cincinnatti
9.  Buffalo
10. Minneapolis-St.Paul


And for your viewing pleasure, a rundown on how Salt Lake City is getting a soccer stadium built in Sandy, UT...

http://www.rslstadium.com/faq.html

from pg. 6...

quote:Will current taxpayers in Sandy have their taxes increased to pay for the project?

No.  Because the CDA can only use new "tax increment," current property taxes cannot be used for the project.  This means that anyone who is paying taxes in Sandy now will not be paying to assist the stadium project.  Only new property values created in the CDA can be used.  Anyone who currently pays property tax in Sandy can rest assured his/her property taxes won't be raised to pay for the stadium project.

[USRufnex]

UPDATE:  Since all the news lately has been Jenks' approval for a TIF district, thought this would be interesting...

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/stories/2007/11/05/daily20.html?ana=from_rss

quote:Wednesday, November 7, 2007
TIF Commission OKs Bannister Mall incentives
Kansas City Business Journal

A $943 million redevelopment proposal for the Bannister Mall area received approval for nearly $230 million in public incentives from the Tax Increment Financing Commission of Kansas City at a special meeting Wednesday.

TIF allows new taxes to be redirected back into a development.

Approval allows Three Trails Redevelopment LLC to bring its proposal before the City Council this year. Gaining council approval within that time frame would get the project on track to open a soccer stadium component in the spring of 2010.

Anchored by an 18,500-seat Kansas City Wizards soccer stadium, the 467-acre plan includes a tournament soccer field complex, 1.1 million square feet of retail, 1.6 million square feet of offices and four hotels.

Owen Buckley, president of Lane4 Property Group Inc., which would develop the project, said he was pleased with the commission's action and hopeful that the momentum will continue.

About 100 people attended the meeting, which included a public hearing. Proponents of the south Kansas City project included Councilman John Sharp and three Missouri state representatives.

The TIF request is the largest considered by the commission since the council approved an incentives and economic development policy in August. Mayor Mark Funkhouser had pushed for the policy to improve what he viewed as the city's lax oversight of incentives.

http://collinsvilleherald.stltoday.com/articles/2007/11/02/news/sj2tn20071017-1017cvj_tifmeeting.ii1.txt

quote:The city and developers are in the process of creating a tax increment financing district for the multi-million dollar soccer village to be constructed on 400 acres of land near the Interstate 255 and Horseshoe Lake Road intersection in Collinsville.  The TIF district would allow property taxes produced through the development to repay bonds used to construct buildings, roads and infrastructure in the soccer village. The taxing bodies that typically receive property taxes would continue to get the amount of tax money collected prior to the area being development. The increment above that original amount would be distributed from the city to the developer to pay for the project.

Rob Christlieb, SLSU and Crossroads Development Group representative, said that the project wouldn't be possible without a TIF district.

"But for the TIF, this project wouldn't exist," he said. "If we didn't have the TIF, we wouldn't be building here because of the cost."

Driving to Chicago last week, I took a little detour to the proposed Collinsville, IL site... not bad.  Just skeptical as to whether St Louisans will travel miles east of downtown ST L to go see soccer played at "the World's Largest Catsup Bottle"...



Of course it could be worse... due to renovations at Arrowhead Stadium... until KC gets a soccer stadium built by bulldozing an old shopping mall, they'll be playing here...

Kansas City Wizards announce KCK as home for 2008, 2009 soccer seasons

http://www.kansascitykansan.com/articles/2007/11/06/sports/sports1.txt

[USRufnex]

And former Chicago Fire GM Peter Wilt, who had been working hard to bring MLS to Milwaukee, finally threw in the towel this week... he had previously been working with Global Development Partners up until Global cut bait fall 2006 to concentrate on Tulsa's "East End"...


http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13209019&postcount=1

Time for me to move on posted 12 Nov 2007

The last 2 1/2 years have certainly been educational for me. I'm sorry that my efforts weren't able to result in getting the team that this state and its soccer community deserve. While MPS will continue to exist and will look to put something together, i am not optimistic that it will be successful. The reasons it didn't happen are both simple and complex:

* We didn't have an owner or a stadium.

* We didn't have an owner, because we didn't have a stadium business model that made economic sense.

* We didn't have a stadium business model that made sense for a number of reasons, some of which i don't think i'll ever fully know. Restrictions on Wisconsin's TIF laws (permitting only incremental property tax and not incremental sales tax), a dramatic increase in the MLS entry fee (triple) and the lack of high level, proactive government support certainly all contributed (Rocky Marcoux, Mayor Barrett).

Hopefully there will be another chance in the future and i would love to be a part of it. In the meantime, i would certainly like to help bring a USL1 team to the state. Soccer is too important to too many people in Wisconsin not to have a professional outdoor team here.

Thank you to everyone here who supported our efforts.

peter

[perspicuity85]

Ruf, thanks for the info.  Do you know Noel Lemon?  From what I've read about him online, he seems to be the type of person Tulsa needs to bring pro soccer back.  He seems to be thought of as a passionate person and a risk-taker.

One thing about the St. Louis stadium location: I think you may be underestimating Collinsville, IL.  In the last two decades or so, the Illinois suburbs of St. Louis have been growing.  Far from the reaches of seamy East St. Louis, Belleville, Fairview Hts., and O'Fallon are genuine suburbs of St. Louis.  Also, nearby Edwardsville is home to Southern Illinois Univ-Edwardsville, which boasts over 13,000 students, most of which are from St. Louis.