Thawing of the Ice Cube Deal?

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

The city buys a 600 million dollar property for 52 million.

That is 8.6 cents on the dollar. Isn't that the about the same as our current sales tax rate?

Just pay the sales tax and get the product free!

We are to believe the building owners chose to sell the property for $548,000,000 less then value?  Really?

Yup.  Williams Communications went bankrupt in 2002.  Level 3 got everything (people, clients, etc.) for $1.1 billion.  They ended up with a building they couldn't fill, so they dumped it.  They got what the wanted and moved on.

If that is true, we should all check our portfolios for any evidence of Level 3 stock and sell immediately if the bosses of that company are making decisions such as this.  If they chose to throw away more then one-half billion dollars for no reason, they will soon be bankrupt.  And this is the type of company with this type of management the City is counting on for a long term lease?

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

The city buys a 600 million dollar property for 52 million.

That is 8.6 cents on the dollar. Isn't that the about the same as our current sales tax rate?

Just pay the sales tax and get the product free!

Bragging about buying a lemon cheap? That's rich. You've taken spin to a whole new level.

[RecycleMichael]

Lemon?

Your attempt to discredit everything that the Mayor does has tainted your objectivity on this one.

It is a fine building.

[Townsend]

And he said "that's rich"

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Don't forget, also, that the building cost in the neighborhood of $300 million to build.

What is it that the proud new owner, the City of Tulsa, paid for the structure?

Bueller?  Bueller?

Where'd you come up with that number?

And don't forget, also, that the building sat there for sale for years and they could not find a buyer.  Sat there more than 1/2 vacant for years and they could not find tenants.  And then along came our mayor with her many years of business experience... we'll see how the story ends, but it's not looking like a happy ending for Tulsa's citizens.

I believe $600M was the total cost. $300M for the structure, $300M for the furnishings and finishings.

ROFL   Wow, some people will believe anything...  Show me one credible source that says that building cost $300 million OR that it cost $300 million to furnish it.  Those numbers are insane.

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Don't forget, also, that the building cost in the neighborhood of $300 million to build.

What is it that the proud new owner, the City of Tulsa, paid for the structure?

Bueller?  Bueller?

Where'd you come up with that number?

And don't forget, also, that the building sat there for sale for years and they could not find a buyer.  Sat there more than 1/2 vacant for years and they could not find tenants.  And then along came our mayor with her many years of business experience... we'll see how the story ends, but it's not looking like a happy ending for Tulsa's citizens.

I believe $600M was the total cost. $300M for the structure, $300M for the furnishings and finishings.

ROFL   Wow, some people will believe anything...  Show me one credible source that says that building cost $300 million OR that it cost $300 million to furnish it.  Those numbers are insane.

The source I saw was the OKC Journal Record.  Unfortuately, it's in archives now and I don't have a paid subscription.  I also don't have time to google articles.  But honestly--this building had very, very high construction costs.  Does it look like something that could be build for $50 million?  $80 million?  No - try $200 million, or a present cost of $300 million.

Do you realize how large and well-equipped this structure is?  Williams built it at the heyday of the dot-com boom.  Look at the leasing brochure: http://onetechnologycenter.com/Portals/1/OTCLeaseBrochure.pdf

Whether or not you think the deal should have been made, there shouldn't be an argument about the nature of the structure.  It's a Porsche 911 of office buildings--as nice, sleek, and modern as any available, period.  City of Tulsa got in at the very bottom of the market.  In the event that the downtown office market ever booms again (not out of the realm of possibility), the city will have a wildly appreciating asset on its hands.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

If that is true, we should all check our portfolios for any evidence of Level 3 stock and sell immediately if the bosses of that company are making decisions such as this.  If they chose to throw away more then one-half billion dollars for no reason, they will soon be bankrupt.  And this is the type of company with this type of management the City is counting on for a long term lease?

Level 3 got SBC...I think they did okay. [story].

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

If that is true, we should all check our portfolios for any evidence of Level 3 stock and sell immediately if the bosses of that company are making decisions such as this.  If they chose to throw away more then one-half billion dollars for no reason, they will soon be bankrupt.  And this is the type of company with this type of management the City is counting on for a long term lease?

Level 3 got SBC...I think they did okay. [story].

What do you mean "they gotSBC"???

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Don't forget, also, that the building cost in the neighborhood of $300 million to build.

What is it that the proud new owner, the City of Tulsa, paid for the structure?

Bueller?  Bueller?

Where'd you come up with that number?

And don't forget, also, that the building sat there for sale for years and they could not find a buyer.  Sat there more than 1/2 vacant for years and they could not find tenants.  And then along came our mayor with her many years of business experience... we'll see how the story ends, but it's not looking like a happy ending for Tulsa's citizens.

I believe $600M was the total cost. $300M for the structure, $300M for the furnishings and finishings.

ROFL   Wow, some people will believe anything...  Show me one credible source that says that building cost $300 million OR that it cost $300 million to furnish it.  Those numbers are insane.

The source I saw was the OKC Journal Record.  Unfortuately, it's in archives now and I don't have a paid subscription.  I also don't have time to google articles.  But honestly--this building had very, very high construction costs.  Does it look like something that could be build for $50 million?  $80 million?  No - try $200 million, or a present cost of $300 million.

Ahhh, I see you're slyly changing the story.  First it was "the building cost $300 million."  Now, we've already changed to "it cost $200 million" and has a "present cost of $300 million."  First of all, you are making some wild assumptions about what the present cost of building that structure might be.  Secondly, present value, and even "cost in today's dollars" are not the same as "cost."

You and your cohort are asking us to believe that it cost approximately $800 per square foot to build and furnish that structure.  Do you really think that sounds likely???

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital
What do you mean "they gotSBC"???

From the above-linked, 2002 article:

quote: Williams Communications, a broadband wholesaler, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection April 22, reporting assets of $5.99 billion and debts of $7.15 billion. Its reorganization plan would divide its post-bankruptcy assets between bondholders and Williams Cos., a Tulsa-based energy giant.

The company amassed its debt building its 33,000-mile fiber optic network, serving blue-chip customers including SBC Communications Inc. But an industrywide glut of broadband lowered prices and prevented Williams from raising enough cash to pay off the debt.

Level 3 has built a 20,000-mile, worldwide fiber optic network, serving customers such as regional Bell carriers, Internet service providers and cable TV companies.

Telecommunications analysts say the industry must undergo consolidation, which will reduce competition, allowing surviving firms to increase market share and raise prices.  

[Wrinkle]

I've seen quoted in publications at the time of construction it stated as $200 Million, including most of the interior stuff the City obtained.

I don't think downtown real estate has been escalating at the same rate as Miami condos, however.

Commercial buildings are market driven and priced according to their cash flow, i.e., occupancy.

A building sitting half empty for three or four years says a lot about the market for this type of space.

Still, at $52 Million, this would seem a good deal. If it remains so at $76 Million (bldg + move) starts to get questionable. Then there's the $8.5 Million per year in costs the City will be paying, stated as now near a 'break-even' deal in relation to current facilities. It was going to save us $15 Million when this began.

In five years, when we actually start buying the building (as opposed to paying interest only, i.e, 'rent'), I wonder if the new mortgage will be based upon the current $52M (or even the $76M) current cost, or the then appreciated market value of a full building?

The current work can only be considered 'magic'.

[shadows]

The city has a city hall that has enough room for offices for a city of a million citizens but the expansion of the city limits have been cut off by the burbs.   We gottem the office space but where is the land to build the houses for the citizens to need such a building in the future.   Could we use house boats on all these river lakes we are about to construct?

There are hundreds of the working poor that invested in under table stocks, that in the total tally could reach well beyond the figures that are being thrown around, that paid in queer stock issues for the excessive cost of the building.   And they are not through paying for it by no means.

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital


Ahhh, I see you're slyly changing the story.  First it was "the building cost $300 million."  Now, we've already changed to "it cost $200 million" and has a "present cost of $300 million."  First of all, you are making some wild assumptions about what the present cost of building that structure might be.  Secondly, present value, and even "cost in today's dollars" are not the same as "cost."

You and your cohort are asking us to believe that it cost approximately $800 per square foot to build and furnish that structure.  Do you really think that sounds likely???

First, I have no idea what the furnishings cost.  Probably a lot.  

Second, when I got home from my office in Dallas (which is nowhere near as nice as the city will soon have) I had time to Google for your answers.  This Urban Tulsa article says today's construction cost would be $300 million: http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A17463  I would swear the Journal Record article I read said $300 million to originally build the structure, but whatever--you caught me in a filthy stinky lie.  Go ahead and ROFL!!!1!!

Frankly, I have no idea why you're so pissy about this deal.  Is it total risk aversion, misplaced architectural nostalgia, or raw political grudge?  I mean, do you invest?  Do you have a 401(k)? What don't you grasp?  The city got in on a Mercedes for a Kia price!  The city can office in their new, gleaming city hall for 40 years as it slowly depreciates and degrades, like last time, then move again, while we get a Holiday Inn across from the arena.  That's the worst case.  The best case is that, on top of a Sheraton luxury hotel adjacent to convention space, the market for downtown Tulsa office space takes off and the city sees a huge return on their investment.  In 10 years time, I expect CoT to sell One Technology for a major profit and build a new city hall to suit.  Or we can sell it at a small profit to lure a new corporate presence.  I don't give a rat's donkey which one happens, because every option is better than that crumbly piece of modernist turdblossom, with its basement entry and tight hallways that every builder who needs a permit has to squeeze through and complain of the mildew smell.  

I like this deal--it's forward thinking, dynamic, and a winner for the city.  Can't wait to drive visitors around and point out City Hall in 2008.  Because it's done.  So enjoy.

[Double A]

The glass curtain wall and roof have already failed and had to be replaced. It's a salvaged mercedes pieced back together for a quick sale. You'd think after being in operation for five years the lease brochure would show actual numbers via recorded energy costs of operation, instead of just energy models that predict the energy savings due to the "solar well". To my knowledge, no documentation regarding the energy costs and consumption to confirm this energy efficient design modeling has ever been made public.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital
What do you mean "they gotSBC"???

From the above-linked, 2002 article:

quote: Williams Communications, a broadband wholesaler, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection April 22, reporting assets of $5.99 billion and debts of $7.15 billion. Its reorganization plan would divide its post-bankruptcy assets between bondholders and Williams Cos., a Tulsa-based energy giant.

The company amassed its debt building its 33,000-mile fiber optic network, serving blue-chip customers including SBC Communications Inc. But an industrywide glut of broadband lowered prices and prevented Williams from raising enough cash to pay off the debt.

Level 3 has built a 20,000-mile, worldwide fiber optic network, serving customers such as regional Bell carriers, Internet service providers and cable TV companies.

Telecommunications analysts say the industry must undergo consolidation, which will reduce competition, allowing surviving firms to increase market share and raise prices.  

Yeah, I saw that.  So you were just referring to their getting SBC as a customer?