Falling Behind

[potomac13]

I have been looking at this forum for a while now but I have to say that my view of Tulsa from the people on this forum bear no resemblance to the Tulsa I grew up in. That Tulsa had its act together and knew where it belonged in the greater scheme of things. Money was available to keep the infrastructure in top shape and it was good place to live.

Current Tulsa seems like it is falling apart and if you disagree with the folks on this board they upchuck all over you. They come across as a bunch of 30 somethings with limited resources. If TulsaNow were a TV show, I would title it "The Squabblers." No wonder nothing ever gets done.

I said I thought McMansions were OK and some fruitcake named "waterboy" promptly told me where to get off ("waterboy" sounds like some kind of fetish but that is another subject). I then suggested that everyone pays attention to Wall Street at some time in their lives and I was labeled Gordon Geckko.

I now know why Tulsa keeps falling farther behind – it is not the city, it is the people. If TulsaNow is representative, heaven help my birthplace.

I thought this forum might be a place for intelligent discussion but I was wrong.

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by potomac13

I said I thought McMansions were OK and some fruitcake named "waterboy" promptly told me where to get off ("waterboy" sounds like some kind of fetish but that is another subject).

I thought this forum might be a place for intelligent discussion but I was wrong.

Is calling people "fruitcakes" your idea of intelligent discussion?  This is an open forum, anyone can post their opinion.  Most people on this forum are not involved in public decision making in any way except for this forum.  If you think this forum is adequate supporting evidence for your claim that Tulsa is just dropping off the face of the earth, you are completely unfounded.

[guido911]

Of course, there's this from frequent participants on this forum:

http://www.tulsatruth.org/newsmore?id=3

[sgrizzle]

I smell Davaz.

[Rowdy]

Wow, what a way to introduce yourself.

[Renaissance]

Davaz

[Ed W]

Maybe you're thinking back to the 'golden age' that most of us would call the 1950s.  You know, before the turmoil of the 60s with all those race riots, political assassinations, free love, hippies, drugs, and the deeply divisive war in Vietnam.  Yeah, the 50s were good, unless you were black, Hispanic, gay, or a beatnik.  When any of those folk got uppity, the cops would just bust their chops.  They knew their place and kept to it, unless they wanted to have their heads kicked in by jackbooted thugs.

Come to think of it, things haven't really changed much.

While I find some of the other inmates here have many positions that are polar opposites of my own, for the most part they're civil and polite when making their points.  This differs immensely from other forums I've read and subsequently dropped.  These people are all sweetness and light compared to the trolls and ogres who inhabit Usenet.

So, given that this is a vibrant community based on the exchange of ideas, it's highly unlikely that you'll encounter a monolithic ideology when you wander through.  The inmates may bark loudly, but they can't bite.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Ed W

Maybe you're thinking back to the 'golden age' that most of us would call the 1950s.  You know, before the turmoil of the 60s with all those race riots, political assassinations, free love, hippies, drugs, and the deeply divisive war in Vietnam.  Yeah, the 50s were good, unless you were black, Hispanic, gay, or a beatnik.  When any of those folk got uppity, the cops would just bust their chops.  They knew their place and kept to it, unless they wanted to have their heads kicked in by jackbooted thugs.

Come to think of it, things haven't really changed much.

While I find some of the other inmates here have many positions that are polar opposites of my own, for the most part they're civil and polite when making their points.  This differs immensely from other forums I've read and subsequently dropped.  These people are all sweetness and light compared to the trolls and ogres who inhabit Usenet.

So, given that this is a vibrant community based on the exchange of ideas, it's highly unlikely that you'll encounter a monolithic ideology when you wander through.  The inmates may bark loudly, but they can't bite.

Yeah...what he said. Twice.

[AMP]

Tulsa and many other small towns have and will always be about those with big money moving things along.  Nothing wrong with that.  Many people, including some on here, just like to poke fun at some of the ways and means that things are brought about.  Not sure if we have any thoughts of changing anything, just like to bring up points for discussion, Monday morning quarterback type deal.  

Granted, life in the 1950s and 1960s seemed to be a much eaiser and carefree time.  Even the 1970s were good for most.  I had a dozen pay checks just sitting in my top drawer in the mid 1970s.  No worries, had no mortgage, no payments, no loans.  No one owed my money and I owed no one else money.  Cash in the bank and in my pockets, and in my desk.  Money was the furtherst thing from most peoples minds then.  Buyers paid cash for motorcycles, automobiles, boats.  The prices were not outrageous and out of reach for the regular bule collar worker. Finance was not something that people needed.   The term "Filler Up" from the gas station attents could be heard at most stations after the familer ding ding of the diveway bell. Taking an evening drive out to the country, up to the lake or to the park was common.  Folks had three or four cars, kids had cars, wife had a car, husband had a car and all were paid for with cash.  Plus most times they were sitting full of gas, with the windows rolled down and no one feared they would be stolen or pilfered with.

Cash registers were singing, products were moving, trucks were delivering.  

But then something changed for the worse, and I don't think it will ever be the same ever again.  Can't put my finger on exatly what it was, or a number of events that caused it. I do know one day suits came into the store where I worked and sold the owner on a finance system.  From then on things went downhill fast.  But it certainly has not been the same since those times.  

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by potomac13

I have been looking at this forum for a while now but I have to say that my view of Tulsa from the people on this forum bear no resemblance to the Tulsa I grew up in. That Tulsa had its act together and knew where it belonged in the greater scheme of things. Money was available to keep the infrastructure in top shape and it was good place to live.

Current Tulsa seems like it is falling apart and if you disagree with the folks on this board they upchuck all over you. They come across as a bunch of 30 somethings with limited resources. If TulsaNow were a TV show, I would title it "The Squabblers." No wonder nothing ever gets done.

I said I thought McMansions were OK and some fruitcake named "waterboy" promptly told me where to get off ("waterboy" sounds like some kind of fetish but that is another subject). I then suggested that everyone pays attention to Wall Street at some time in their lives and I was labeled Gordon Geckko.

I now know why Tulsa keeps falling farther behind – it is not the city, it is the people. If TulsaNow is representative, heaven help my birthplace.

I thought this forum might be a place for intelligent discussion but I was wrong.

Dude.... that's some bad karma!

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by potomac13


I said I thought McMansions were OK and some fruitcake named "waterboy" promptly told me where to get off ("waterboy" sounds like some kind of fetish but that is another subject). I then suggested that everyone pays attention to Wall Street at some time in their lives and I was labeled Gordon Geckko.


I thought this forum might be a place for intelligent discussion but I was wrong.

I've been called socialist, communist, liberal, on this forum lately. I can handle that. Good arguments could be made to support those names whether I am or not. But fruitcake?! What the hell is wrong with fruitcake?! I like fruitcake. Great with egg nog. Totally uncalled for. Bruno is the fruitcake. Even has a tin foil hat.

Start over man. Its hard enough coming back to your hometown without pissing off those who are most likely to welcome you. I don't really think your gluttonous though I may not want you to buy the small home next to me. And be glad FB, Iplaw or Conan didn't go after you.[]

[YoungTulsan]

quote:Originally posted by AMP

Even the 1970s were good for most.  I had a dozen pay checks just sitting in my top drawer in the mid 1970s.  No worries, had no mortgage, no payments, no loans.  No one owed my money and I owed no one else money.  Cash in the bank and in my pockets, and in my desk.  Money was the furtherst thing from most peoples minds then.

Wasn't that moreso a Tulsa thing in the 70s?  The overal US economy was having some problems along with a recession, while Tulsa thrived due to being a city rich in headquarters to oil companies?

I wasn't around then, so I don't know how things were, just the gist of it which I've been told.

[YoungTulsan]

quote:Originally posted by AMP


But then something changed for the worse, and I don't think it will ever be the same ever again.  Can't put my finger on exatly what it was, or a number of events that caused it.

For Tulsa in particular it would be the oil bust, I would imagine.

As far as things as a whole changing from the way you described them...  It would seem to ME that car ownership has RISEN since my youthful days of the 80s.  Streets that used to be clear, with maybe one car in the driveway, are now littered with so many parked cars the streets are barely passable.  Mom, dad, and both kids, all have their own cars now.  We buy MORE things now, not less (Look at the GDP for crying out loud) - But what made money spiral out of control into a problem for people?  I think credit cards came along and gave many people just enough rope to hang themselves with.  On top of that, so many things have become a "necessity" in life these days that werent then.  We have computers, an internet connection, a cell phone for every person in the family.  We have fancy TVs with digital cable, HDTV, and TiVos.  We have DVD players and a collection of a hundred movies.  We have to have Ipods, text messaging, and ringtones.   The scam called the health care system that eats about a quarter of the economy while the country gets increasingly unhealthy.  People don't eat at home as much.  Scratch that- some people live ENTIRELY off of restraunt food.  Now we got country and western on the bus, R & B...  We got disco, and 8-tracks and casettes and Stereo.  We've got rural scenes and magazines, and we've got truckers on CB.  We got Richard Pryor on video...  Sorry, got carried away.  But you get my drift.

People who consider themselves working class/lower or mid class and having money problems, have ALL of these things I just listed (maybe not the 8-track unless you're a collector ) - We are not worse off than we were 30 years ago, we simply demand MORE things as a NECESSITY (when of course, any sane person is ready to reply to me, that these things are NOT a necessity).  But there are tons more things out there now built to tempt people into financial distress.  And credit card companies are extending more and more debt to finance this.  But even without extensions of credit, and amazingly, even for all of the money drained from us by the sick care industry, we still seem to be better off in 2007 than in 1977.  Take away all the unneccesary crap, and don't pay 200% interest on credit purchases, and you could make it by just fine in today's economy buying things with cash and not worrying about money problems.

[AMP]

Not too sure about being able to purchase new items for cash with the current system.  When the credit people walked in with the computer and printer a brand new large displacement 3 or 4 cylinder motorcycle ran $995 cash out the door delivered.  

The next thing we saw was the pricing jumping up to $1,495 and then a year later to $1,995, then 2 years later up to $2,995.  It was by design the pricing increased quicker than wages causing the finance plane complete with a downpayment and payments incorporated into the sales process.  The Finance people also sold another product called Insurance.  And with every finance deal, the buyer was forced to also purchase Insurance.  About that same time the Liability Insurance also came mandatory in Oklahoma due to lobby groups most likely attached to the same Finance and Insurance people that paid us a visit then.  

The same finance people approached the manufactures and distributors and set up what they called floor plans for their dealers, causing the pricing to skyrocket, but the salvation was the monthly payment plan.  

Sales dropped off as prices increased, profits fell, the mid 1980s hit and many businesses closed their doors including several automobile and motorcycle dealerships in Tulsa.  We were selling 2,000 motorcycles per year at the dealership prior to the Finance Plan being developed.  Sales of off road motorcycles in Oklahoma for 2005 were less than 1,900 total based on the National Powersports Dealers News report. I also have reports on the total number of motorcycles manufactured pre 1980s and post 1980s the difference is dramatic with the drop off after the 1980s and the introduction of higher pricing and credit terms.  

I never quite followed the logic, as most folks still today pay cash for a single cylinder four stroke lawn mower, and the motorcycle was not much more than that albeit it may of had a small transmission and a clutch along with a headlamp and a taillight, but most riding mowers have that same equipment.  

The finance programs I believe were the major cause of inflation and the cause of higher pricing of products that cost the same if not less to make 2, 5, 10 years later using the same designs, molds and parts.

We had four cars in our family and two motorcyles.  But they all fit in the garages and the driveway, don't recall ever seeing cars parked in the street much.   I paid cash for every motorcycle and car I have ever owned.  Most have been new.

After the 80's things changed and the cash seemed to not be worth near as much, dollar deflated and many businesses closed up, and many of those buildings have stood empty ever since.  Some were re-occupied, but only for short terms and the ones that seemed to stay occupied were from out of state firms that may be a tax write off for a large corporation.  

Not sure about people owning too many things today, thieves break into people's homes and steal 10 year old Televisions on a daily basis, take car stereos and other items not worth over $20 on the street.

I chose to have no cable tv feed, and have not had the tv on in my house for the past month.  I have the lowest price internet and a $35 per month cell phone service and no hard wired home phone.  My electric bill runs around $22 per month, I keep most the circuit breakers shut off when I am gone to save money.  I don't have a stereo, cds or 8 track tapes.  I do have a small FM radio alarm clock that I rarely listen to.
 
Used to have most of what you listed and much more, until thieves stole the majority of it, and I decided not to purchase it again, as it will only be stolen again. So why bother with it.  As I said, something changed here for the worse and it has not gotten any better since.  

[TURobY]

quote:Originally posted by AMP

Not too sure about being able to purchase new items for cash with the current system.  When the credit people walked in with the computer and printer a brand new large displacement 4 or 4 cylinder motorcycle ran $995 cash out the door delivered.  The next thing we saw was the pricing jumping up to $1,495 and then a year later to $1,995 with a downpayment and payment plan incorporated into the sales process.  

The same finance people approached the manufactures and distributors and set up what they called floor plans for their dealers, causing the pricing to skyrocket, but the salvation was the monthly payment plan.  

I never quite followed the logic, as most folks still today pay cash for a single cylinder four stroke lawn mower, and the motorcycle was not much more than that albeit it may of had a small transmission and a clutch along with a headlamp and a taillight, but most riding mowers have that same equipment.  

The finance programs I believe were the major cause of inflation and the cause of higher pricing of products that cost the same if not less to make 2, 5, 10 years later using the same designs, molds and parts.

We had four cars in our family and two motorcyles.  But they all fit in the garages and the driveway, don't recall ever seeing cars parked in the street much.   I paid cash for every motorcycle and car I have ever owned.  Most have been new.

After the 80's things changed and the cash seemed to not be worth near as much, dollar deflated and many businesses closed up, and many of those buildings have stood empty ever since.  Some were re-occupied, but only for short terms and the ones that seemed to stay occupied were from out of state firms that may be a tax write off for a large corporation.  

Not sure about people owning too many things today, thieves break into people's homes and steal 10 year old Televisions on a daily basis, take car stereos and other items not worth over $20 on the street.

I chose to have no cable tv feed, and have not had the tv on in my house for the past month.  I have the lowest price internet and a $35 per month cell phone service and no hard wired home phone.  My electric bill runs around $22 per month, I keep most the circuit breakers shut off when I am gone to save money.  I don't have a stereo, cds or 8 track tapes.  I do have a small FM radio alarm clock that I rarely listen to.
 
Used to have most of what you listed and much more, until thieves stole the majority of it, and I decided not to purchase it again, as it will only be stolen again. So why bother with it.  As I said, something changed here for the worse and it has not gotten any better since.  

Debbie Downer approves of this message.