Water in the Arkansas

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

My feel is that what is going to happen is a low water dam of some sort in the area near downtown.

( Most likely not a large one that goes all the way to sand springs.  If they and jenks want one have a dual vote. the residents of the city And the county must pass it, in other words if the people of sand springs fail the low water dam in their part, but the county vote passes it, then the dam wont happen.  If the county fails it and the city passes it, the city can pay for it themselves but the county won't. Same for Jenks. )

Frankly I think each city should pay for their own dam, support it, deal with it, etc. and leave a county vote out of it. Of course each dam would have to meet the corps and incogs approval.

I think that the Branson Landing guy is chomping at the bit to do something in that area and the Mayor doesn't want to lose the opportunity to have it happen. Hence the holding off of the zoning thing. Get that development going, then zone.  Otherwise, well we know how committees, and such can take forever and developers lose interest and then we will indeed likely see what we have always seen.  Zilch.

and again... Developing the river to me doesnt mean developing the whoooole thing within Tulsa.  3 zones, developed, park, and conservation. The smallest being developed. Nobody completely happy, but everyone gets a good part of what they want.

Um, there IS a dam near downtown, at 31st.

And a countywide vote has been passed for two dams (2025). The needed federal matching funds have been delayed by Corp spending on it's failures with regard to Katrina and Levees.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

My feel is that what is going to happen is a low water dam of some sort in the area near downtown.

( Most likely not a large one that goes all the way to sand springs.  If they and jenks want one have a dual vote. the residents of the city And the county must pass it, in other words if the people of sand springs fail the low water dam in their part, but the county vote passes it, then the dam wont happen.  If the county fails it and the city passes it, the city can pay for it themselves but the county won't. Same for Jenks. )

Frankly I think each city should pay for their own dam, support it, deal with it, etc. and leave a county vote out of it. Of course each dam would have to meet the corps and incogs approval.

I think that the Branson Landing guy is chomping at the bit to do something in that area and the Mayor doesn't want to lose the opportunity to have it happen. Hence the holding off of the zoning thing. Get that development going, then zone.  Otherwise, well we know how committees, and such can take forever and developers lose interest and then we will indeed likely see what we have always seen.  Zilch.

and again... Developing the river to me doesnt mean developing the whoooole thing within Tulsa.  3 zones, developed, park, and conservation. The smallest being developed. Nobody completely happy, but everyone gets a good part of what they want.

Um, there IS a dam near downtown, at 31st.

And a countywide vote has been passed for two dams (2025). The needed federal matching funds have been delayed by Corp spending on it's failures with regard to Katrina and Levees.

My bad, I didn't realize the lake extended between 21st and 11th where the new development will be.

But I heard that the 12mill that was voted for was not even enough to build one dam.  So how could 24mill, adding the federal matching funds, build 2?

And if the mayor is concerned with "putting water in the river" so development can get started, where would the other dams be built?  I assume she isnt talking about Jenks and Sand Springs. Is there some other possible development going in along another part of the river in Tulsa thats making her want to rush that?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

My feel is that what is going to happen is a low water dam of some sort in the area near downtown.

( Most likely not a large one that goes all the way to sand springs.  If they and jenks want one have a dual vote. the residents of the city And the county must pass it, in other words if the people of sand springs fail the low water dam in their part, but the county vote passes it, then the dam wont happen.  If the county fails it and the city passes it, the city can pay for it themselves but the county won't. Same for Jenks. )

Frankly I think each city should pay for their own dam, support it, deal with it, etc. and leave a county vote out of it. Of course each dam would have to meet the corps and incogs approval.

I think that the Branson Landing guy is chomping at the bit to do something in that area and the Mayor doesn't want to lose the opportunity to have it happen. Hence the holding off of the zoning thing. Get that development going, then zone.  Otherwise, well we know how committees, and such can take forever and developers lose interest and then we will indeed likely see what we have always seen.  Zilch.

and again... Developing the river to me doesnt mean developing the whoooole thing within Tulsa.  3 zones, developed, park, and conservation. The smallest being developed. Nobody completely happy, but everyone gets a good part of what they want.

Um, there IS a dam near downtown, at 31st.

And a countywide vote has been passed for two dams (2025). The needed federal matching funds have been delayed by Corp spending on it's failures with regard to Katrina and Levees.

My bad, I didn't realize the lake extended between 21st and 11th where the new development will be.

But I heard that the 12mill that was voted for was not even enough to build one dam.  So how could 24mill, adding the federal matching funds, build 2?

And if the mayor is concerned with "putting water in the river" so development can get started, where would the other dams be built?  I assume she isnt talking about Jenks and Sand Springs. Is there some other possible development going in along another part of the river in Tulsa thats making her want to rush that?

There are two dams that made it through the INCOG process. One just South of the Creek Expressway in Jenks and the other just below highway 97 bridge in Sand Springs. What the hold up is on funding varies according to who you talk to, but few believe the excuse that Katrina is to blame. The corps approval is only related to impact on the river flows not infrastructure and such. Most believe it is held up by the focus on the arena, downtown and tax collections. Even if the money was available the planning is not far enough along. Riverwalk tenants expected it to be built a year ago but in reality it may be as much as 5yrs or more in the future. Lots of issues to deal with including Indian participation.

The mayor's remarks about putting water in the river are designed to spur more ideas than the dams. The Oklahoma river is an example of taking a moist river bed and finding ways to put water into it. I think they ended up using wells and pumps along with some diversions. Anyway, in the one chance meeting I had with her it was the only point I was able to make. My thoughts are that the Corps simply hasn't considered putting more water in the river during low flow periods because it isn't their mission. They are military and will not stray from that mission unless directed by chain of command. So the answer is to rewrite that mission to include us. She has the skills along with Savage, the governor and Inhofe to do that. Direct communication then is established and a working relationship can be forged to put water in during festivals, competitions etc.

Anyway, if you suburbans want your plasticized pond on the river now Swake, I suggest you follow the same arrogant behavior that the Jenks mayor and his private bridge building buddies are employing. Privatize the whole thing! Allow the Bridge Partners to become Lowater Dam Partners. The mayor can condemn the land on the Tulsa side of the river and take it by eminent domain, tell the Indians to lawyer up and then lease it to the partners who will build it and take a percentage of the surrounding development revenues for ten years. Of course the city of Tulsa will have to provide rescue and security while increased tax revenues go to Jenks.  If Tulsa shows any hesitance, threaten to sue them. Thats what good neighbors do.

I say that tongue in cheek, but nothing would surprise me anymore.

[TheArtist]

Frankly I dont see why she would give a danged about Jenks or Sand Springs.  I sure dont.  The only reason those were thrown in was to get their support on the vote. I know its the proper thing to do to help them work on it and all, but those and your notion of finding away to use pumps, diversions, get the corps, or whatever to get more water in the river, should in no way have impacted the zoning process.  I mean why should it?  

So what about my guess that she stopped the "zoning" process in order to allow a developer to get started soon versus after the zoning was done?  And the talk about the water was to indeed get something done soon, not in 5 or more years so that this developer wouldn't be building in front of a sand bar.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Frankly I dont see why she would give a danged about Jenks or Sand Springs.  I sure dont.  The only reason those were thrown in was to get their support on the vote. I know its the proper thing to do to help them work on it and all, but those and your notion of finding away to use pumps, diversions, get the corps, or whatever to get more water in the river, should in no way have impacted the zoning process.  I mean why should it?  

So what about my guess that she stopped the "zoning" process in order to allow a developer to get started soon versus after the zoning was done?  And the talk about the water was to indeed get something done soon, not in 5 or more years so that this developer wouldn't be building in front of a sand bar.

Remember, the v2025 money was a regional vote. So her interest is a left over from the LaFortune view. But since very little of it was for the river I agree with you. Why would we care? No money was set aside for their construction and the money for preliminary planning is already spent so fund it on your own. The privatization may already be planned.

As far as the zoning A, I couldn't say why. Might be the county's effort to make a regional river authority slowed the momentum or like you say, it could be to allow a developer to start before the rules are set.