Bums asking for handouts

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:Originally posted by AMP

I was approaced by a couple in Waco, Texas who's story was the trying to make it to OKC tale.

What was even more interesting was when they wound up in one of our shops near 21st and Garnett about 4 days later with the same story.  

Must of taken the wrong highway from Waco and missed OKC completly as they were asking for funding to make it to OKC.  

How strange is that?

There is a man that always starts his tale with "I am not a bum"  Gota love that one.  He and a friend in a small compact car worked the Quik Trip lot at 145th and Admiral for a few weeks.  His story was he was trying to get gas money to make it to Miami, Oklahoma.  He resembles Dennis Hopper and there was a building used in the Movie Rumble Fish with a scene in it featuring Dennis Hopper I believe.

Him being near that location was just as strange as the couple from Waco crossing my path twice.

Twilight Zone music begins to play....

Seen em' he hangs out at the 21st and Harvard QT as well.

Maybe we should have a bum watch thread.  Like a speed trap warning thread....

Add 11th street across from Skelly Stadium to his usual haunts, he's hit me up twice, sez he's trying to get to Stillwater.

[iplaw]

Well.  So much for keeping lunch down.[!]

[grahambino]

the guy with the thong is "leslie"
he's apparently quite famous among Austinites.  he's ran for mayor a few times.
I saw him cruising around town on his bike towing his sign one night.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Cochran
edit:  added url

[Hometown]

It's the billionnares that ran off with your lunch, folks.  But that's okay, right.  Just the natural order.

It looks to me like a good deal of Tulsa is a pay check or two away from the street.  And Okies were the original homeless.  Grapes of Wrath, et cetera.  I read it in the Tulsa World, "Oklahoma is a poor state."

He makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.

Conan, Sometimes I give and sometimes I don't.  But I don't sit around with my well off friends making snide remarks about people that have hit upon hard times (unless we're discussing Republicans).

Anyway, I'm reminded of the homeless man sitting outside the train station, greeting the workers every morning, calling out to them as they exited the station, yelling, "Hurry, hurry."

[TheArtist]

Being a paycheck or two away from being on the streets...Most of them are a paycheck or two away from being off the streets but choose to not do so.


Yes bad things happen but good things happen as well.  Most of these chronically homeless or the "usual beggars" are the ones who either have drug or mental problems or are just bums.


Yes bad things happen but so do good things.

 There are so many good programs, churches etc. that are out there to help those who have hit a rough patch and are willing to help themselves.  People can find help from proper organizations and charities and not be on the corner with a sign begging. If they are doing that it just tells you that they don't really want to do the right thing or they have mental or drug problems, and in that case giving them money is absolutely the wrong thing to do.  Either way its lazy, irresponsible and immoral for someone to give cash to them directly.

But if you feel you must give to that person...If they need food buy them some food, a ride, give them a ride, gas, buy the gas for them.  That way you will know you are either doing the right thing for someone truly in need or will not further harm someone who is pulling a scam or being a bum for they would be getting nothing more than food or gas. If everyone did that then we wouldn't have the problems like we have.

When I had some tough times in my life and had NOTHING.  Slept in an old abandoned home with half a roof, on the floor. Would clean up at work or in a gas station bathroom. I found that there were sooo many people that were willing to help. I never required or needed any cash.  When I had saved up enough to pay enough for first months rent on a trailer, the waitresses and people where I worked came the next day with blankets, pots and pans all kinds of things.  So many kind generous people out there.  Standing on a corner with a sign, walking around the streets downtown, not getting a dime from me, you know its a scam.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

 Either way its lazy, irresponsible and immoral for someone to give to them directly.

I can kind of swallow everything else you wrote but this remark is off base. Different strokes, Artist. People give for a lot of reasons. They don't have to be the same ones you would.

[Wilbur]

Don't give money to these people!  Being a police officer, I deal with them on a regular basis.  They fall into one of two categories:

1.  Scams - the most popular.  The vast majority are not homeless.  Someone mentioned they make $20-$30 an hour.  That is way too low.  I had one of those guys tell me his best was $1000 in one hour, with close to $50-$100 an hour as typical.  I know one of them who drives in from his home in Broken Arrow, parks his car around the corner, gets out his sign, sets up on the corner of an expressway exit ramp and starts 'signing' (that's what they call it).  The people begging for gas are also a scam.  Those who use the gas can get the most money, but they're still scamming.  There is an older guy who hangs out at 15th and Lewis scamming for gas, with can can in hand....... for his new Cadillac!

2.  Alcoholics - This group doesn't want work or food.  They want booze.  Don't give them money thinking they are going to go buy food, because they won't.  They go straight to the liquor store.  You want to help them, hand them a bottle of booze, because it is the same thing as handing them money.  Saves them a trip if you'll just go get the bottle for them.

Please don't give money to these folks.  You only encourage them to come back.

[RecycleMichael]

I would give money to the homeless if they just had an address to send the check to.

Just kidding.

I said no to a homeless guy in San Francisco who responded by saying "I hope you die soon". I am rarely at a loss for words, but he got me.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

 Either way its lazy, irresponsible and immoral for someone to give to them directly.

I can kind of swallow everything else you wrote but this remark is off base. Different strokes, Artist. People give for a lot of reasons. They don't have to be the same ones you would.

Yes, I am sorry that was a bit harsh.  Its just a frustrating topic sometimes.  It really seemsto me, that what these people are doing, good intentioned it may be, is actually hurting people.  And it gets my dander up if I am not in my best fame of mind.


To explain why I think some kinds of giving are wrong, well I would have to explain my religious belief or moral compass  So here in a nutshell, is kind of the "highly logical analytical persons" way of looking at religion, so if you dont want to be bothered with that kind of topic just ignore what follows lol.

To me; God is Love, Wisdom, Knowlege, Good, Beauty, and Life.  Notice I capitalize each word.  

If you were reading something and it went.... "and then He said" in this context you would know that you could take out He and insert God.  Also if it said..."and then He said build your house upon the rock not upon the sand."  You could take out He an insert Knowlege or Wisdom.  "and Knowlege said, build your house upon the rock not upon the sand."

Its like those word problems in high school. The sentences are logical statements and can be translated into mathematical equations. See what happens when you let a science nerd read a bible lol.[] They either throw it out the window or turn it into an equation.

If   X is = 10 and then you find out that 10 = ab you then know that ab = X.  They are each different ways of expressing the same thing.  

So stating the above, what then would be the difference then between love and Love?

Love has within it, or is equal to, Knowlege, Wisdom, Beauty, Good, etc.  "love" with a lower case l is not, its missing those components.

I saw a news show where there was this lady whose daughter was sick and they were trying to get her to the hospital.  The girl was so fat the couldn't get her out of the building they were living in but had to tear out a window and take her out that way.  When asked why she had fed her so much the mom replied "She (the daughter) wanted the food and I gave it to her because I love her and I wanted her to be happy.  That is an example of love without Wisdom or Knowlege.  A person in an abusive relationship may say they love the person, but its not a Godly Love because it does not contain beauty.  

I was watching a science show.  The scientists were talking about looking for the "equation of everything".  You know why he said they knew they hadn't found it yet?  He said we will know it because it will be Beautiful.  Emc2 is a beautiful and perfect equation. So even here the purest form of Knowlege or Science follows the same rules (Knowlege is Science so in one form you could say that God is Science, but I digress lol) They are one and the same, just a different way of expressing the same thing.  Each different expression contains within it the others and without the others it is not "God".

Soooo, if the logic holds, in order to be Good to someone you must do so with Knowlege and Wisdom etc.  For all the giving or loving in the world without some component of the others is folly.  All the knowlege in the world without Love or Goodness is wrong. "the evil scientist cliche" If I am at my best and searching for an answer, to ask God, would for me translate into.  "What does Love tell me? and Knowlege tell me? Wisdom? Goodness? Science, Beauty? The more I have of each of those the more correct I can hope the answer to be. The more one listens to All of those things, the clearer one is to "hearing Gods voice". The more you have of those things in your life, the closer you are to God. etc. etc.  

So then, to me, to give without Wisdom and Knowlege etc. would not right or moral.
Such giving can do more harm than Good.

Again sorry for the rant. What I said in the earlier post I still think is, right. It just wasn't said with much Wisdom or Beauty []

[waterboy]

I understand your philosophy. I do make eye contact with these guys and they know I'm not a good prospect. Besides, I'm poorer than they are.

[Hometown]

Artist you just said you were the recipient of handouts.  You got lucky Artist.

Sometimes I'm asking life for something and someone will ask me for something and I respond.

I like to live with a generous spirit.  Sounds kind of hokey but the more I give the more I find I have to give.

There was a Black woman wandering around our neighborhood today asking people for $9.  After she stopped at our house and our neighbor's house the police pulled up and took her away.

Anyway folks, this stuff wasn't an issue during the Roosevelt era.  We had a safety net then that is apparently no longer there.  I actually remember when there were no homeless people save a handful of hobos and winos.

Remember the local F***K the Homeless Campaign.  It made national news.  I think I'm beginning to see a pattern.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Artist you just said you were the recipient of handouts.  You got lucky Artist.

Sometimes I'm asking life for something and someone will ask me for something and I respond.

I like to live with a generous spirit.  Sounds kind of hokey but the more I give the more I find I have to give.

There was a Black woman wandering around our neighborhood today asking people for $9.  After she stopped at our house and our neighbor's house the police pulled up and took her away.

Anyway, folks this stuff wasn't an issue during the Roosevelt era.  We had a safety net then that is apparently no longer there.  I actually remember when there were no homeless people save a handful of hobos and winos.

Handouts aren't wrong its how, when, and in what context they are given that matters.

I give much and try to do the right thing by people.  I have let people stay in my home in order to give them a chance to try and get on their feet.  But there were conditions, they had to be working and trying to get to a situation where they could rent their own place. I Have even offered to pay for some peoples education, with the condition they make passing grades and keep working. You would be amazed at how some people can't manage these basic conditions.  

When someone is wrongly asking for help, then such help given is wrongly given.


We arent talking about people who are doing the right things and just happen to run into a bad spat of luck.  That can happen to anyone.  And if all it is, is a bad spat of luck or even the result of a bad descision,(for we all make those from time to time) then doing what they were doing before will get them back to where they were before.  For if they were doing whats right, and trying to better themselves, helping such a person get back on their feet with a "handout" could be fine. But again I wouldn't give anyone cash.

Its like giving a kid an allowance for not doing anything. You don't give adults money for not doing anything either.

If your child fails at a task, or doesn't do his chores, you still feed them and cloth them etc. but you don't
give them cash. If they want cash or more than the basics, then they have to earn it somehow, by either bettering themselves or by working for it.

These people we are talking about aren't working or trying to better themselves. There are programs and charities that can give them a roof, food and clothing, and a chance to get a job and get back on their feet.  Giving them cash will not incentivise them to stay at these programs or incentivise them to work or better themselves.

I would like to see you take someone in who has had some bad luck. Put them up in your home, buy their food, even some clothes. Drive them to job interviews and work.  (I have done all of that for a number of different people.)  But, then if they dont work and are sitting around your house all day. You going to give them some cash if they ask for it? I mean whats wrong with a handout right? If someone was down on their luck and sitting around your house not trying or working, I bet you wouldnt give them money. And then how would you feel if other people came buy and kept giving that person cash because they were asking for it?

If you wouldnt do it in that situation why would you do the same thing in a smilar situation?

If a person has access to food clothing and shelter from charities and organizations but still just sits around the city not doing anything.  Why is it then ok to give them cash?

[Hometown]

You are probably too young to remember this, but before the 1980s many of the people you see on the street would have been in Vinita State Hospital where they got three meals, medical attention and a bath and a place to sleep.

And of course there are people you have run into a string of bad luck.  Where do you think they go when you don't help?  I have spent most of my life in San Francisco and I can tell you that on a regular basis the rejects from the rest of the country wash up on San Francisco's door step.  We could tell what part of the country was going through bad times by who was showing up.  And Oklahoma has had plenty of bad times over the past 30 years.

You'd see a family in a beat up old car with Oklahoma plates, kids and all possessions in the back, parked in an industrial part of town, obviously living in the car.  California has caught other states buying bus tickets for their indigents to send them there.

They would apply for welfare and food stamps and the city would give them an immediate $300 check and emergency food stamps and then a monthly check after that.

Many of the hard luck stories would rotate out of the homeless population.  The mental cases didn't.

So it's okay for you to receive handouts.  That reminds me of the Protestant belief that God rewards good behavior with money.  

When I see someone in a Jaguar I think, who did they have to kill to get that.

[iplaw]

quote:
When I see someone in a Jaguar I think, who did they have to kill to get that.

What a nice cyical, and ignorant viewpoint...Some people actually invest enormous amounts of time and energy into educating themselves and their heart and soul into creating buisnesses that are prosperous.  Did you bother to watch The Pursuit of Happyness?  You'd probably call him a traitor if you saw him driving down the street...[xx(]

quote:
He makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.

Yes, and you misinterpreted that and twisted it to make it say what you wanted it to say....what about that quote makes you think that he rains injustice down on people?  

I hate it when people quote the Bible, even more so when they manipulate it.

quote:
I have spent most of my life in San Francisco

Really?  I could have NEVER guess that!

[tim huntzinger]

A majority of the homeless are chronically mentally ill, with a majority of those from good homes.  A solid 30% were raised in foster andor group homes.

Having worked with the mentally ill homeless for years, the combined effects of medication and sobriety are awesome.  I have known folk that were as psychotic as anything and one would think 'no chance,' but with time and good case management they stabilize.

The best thing to do downtown is to have some chump change handy, never open one's purse or wallet, do not pick a fight, and do not get cornered.