Israel v. The Middle East

[guido911]

Irish ship named after famous pancake heading to Gaza:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/10240856.stm

[Red Arrow]

Clarification (in case anyone else cannot understand);  what I say about the Middle East situation is to show a balance that just isn't present in the right wing - or any - propaganda. 

Obviously not the impression I've gotten from your posts.

[Gaspar]

An open letter to Helen Thomas
By YORAM DORI
06/07/2010 06:32

In light of your recent remarks that Jews must "get the hell out of Palestine" and "go home," I think I should tell you about my parents' families.

Dear Ms. Thomas, I read on numerous Web sites the remarks attributed to you (and I did not see any denial) that we, the Jews must "get the hell out of Palestine" and "go home" to Germany or Poland. I am convinced that you are aware of the events which took place during the years 1939-1945 but, to be certain, I think it appropriate to tell you a little about my parents and their families.

My mother was sent to Palestine from Germany in 1933 with the rise of the Nazis to power by her farseeing parents. The British blockade, which prevented Jews fleeing the Nazi horrors from entering, made it difficult for her and only the pretext of coming on a tourist visit enabled her to enter and remain alive. Her older sister, Sarah, her husband and three children aged 12, 10 and seven did not succeed in finding a way of coming to Palestine and were sent by the Nazis to Poland and from there, their journey to the Auschwitz gas chambers, was short. I understand that it is there that you wish to send me.

My father, who lived in Austria, also showed resourcefulness and immediately on the German invasion and sailed to Palestine. On the way – again the British blockade – he was forced to throw his passport into the sea so that, heaven forbid, they would not send him back to Austria, another country you wished I was moving to. His older brother and his wife, who did not go with him, were murdered by the Nazis and their collaborators.

My parents, who, as mentioned, with lifesaving initiative, fled from Europe before they were murdered, arrived in a desolated and barren country, worked in orchards, barely supported themselves and, by the way, were happy with their lot. In 1947 upon hearing of the UN resolution on the partitioning of the country, they danced in the streets, even though most of the area of Israel was torn from its sovereignty. For brands who survived the fire, it was enough.


The Palestinians and Arab countries, who gained most of the area, refused to accept the UN resolution and began a war to annihilate us. Only three years had passed since the liberation of Auschwitz and again we – the Jews – faced the danger of annihilation. To our joy, 600,000 Jews were victorious over millions of armed Arabs. It appears that justice has power and strength of its own.

IN THE 62 years of our existence, we have had seven wars, thousands of terror attacks, buses which have exploded in streets, firing into schools, mortars fired on kindergartens. Yet you wish to exile us back to the inferno, as if nothing happened 65 years ago in Europe, as if our hands have not been stretched out for peace since the establishment of the state?

We were victorious in the wars imposed upon us by Egypt and we signed a peace agreement with it after yielding all the territory and all the oil. We signed a peace agreement with Jordan. We yielded all the territory and much water. We withdrew from Lebanon to the international border and, in return, we received Hizbullah katyushas on our citizens. We left Gaza and in return, we received massive firing on our citizens in the South. Are you aware, Ms. Thomas, that many children from Sderot and the area around Gaza wet their beds until a late age out of fear of the Hamas missiles? And it is us that you wish to exile? Why? Because you think that we are weak or because it annoys you that we are not defeated?

As someone, who throughout his adult life has been a member of the Israeli "peace camp," notwithstanding you and your strange and angering views, my friends and I (and I hope also my government) will continue to turn over every stone and scour every corner to attain peace. Peace, which will enable us to the smallest extent to live and our neighbors, the Palestinians, to establish a country and to flourish and prosper. To achieve this, we are prepared to make great concessions, to give back all the territories gained as a result of wars which our neighbors forced on us. There is only one thing we want in return – life. A quiet life, a life without terror, a life without missiles, a life like the one you have in Washington and which I, in Israel, also deserve.

[Breadburner]

That old women is burnt up....She really stepped on her tit this time.......

[heironymouspasparagus]

So, I see now that the "time bar" is set at 1933?  Is that something that everyone can agree on?

As for 600,000 winning over millions - well, it certainly didn't hurt to have the US helping a lot.

Oh, and by the way, while there were 6 million Jews killed by the Nazi's (certainly more than bad enough to be an abomination), there were another 8 to 9 million "other people" killed also by those same Nazi's.  And Stalin killed about 20 million.  And Japan/China war killed a few million more.  And on and on.  Estimates I have read in past say anywhere from 50 million to over 150 million during the course of that war.  (I suspect 50 to 60 is closer to reality.)

There is nearly infinite capacity for human suffering and grief in this old world.  And way too often, it is promulgated by so-called 'religious' interests.

Hey, while I am here, let me muddy the waters a little and remind us all once again of the 15 million or so natives to this continent who were exterminated until about 1900!

If we are going to engage in lamentations and wringing of hands, let's do it for everyone.  (Or would that dilute the piety of the effort??)


Red,
Then read the posts.  Just because Fox says 'fair and balanced' don't make it so....

[Gaspar]

So, I see now that the "time bar" is set at 1933?  Is that something that everyone can agree on?

As for 600,000 winning over millions - well, it certainly didn't hurt to have the US helping a lot.

Oh, and by the way, while there were 6 million Jews killed by the Nazi's (certainly more than bad enough to be an abomination), there were another 8 to 9 million "other people" killed also by those same Nazi's.  And Stalin killed about 20 million.  And Japan/China war killed a few million more.  And on and on.  Estimates I have read in past say anywhere from 50 million to over 150 million during the course of that war.  (I suspect 50 to 60 is closer to reality.)

There is nearly infinite capacity for human suffering and grief in this old world.  And way too often, it is promulgated by so-called 'religious' interests.

Hey, while I am here, let me muddy the waters a little and remind us all once again of the 15 million or so natives to this continent who were exterminated until about 1900!

If we are going to engage in lamentations and wringing of hands, let's do it for everyone.  (Or would that dilute the piety of the effort??)


Red,
Then read the posts.  Just because Fox says 'fair and balanced' don't make it so....

Wow!  You have certainly cemented your stance here.  Yes there are numerous atrocities committed by humans.  They have little to do with the current subject, so unless your goal is to change the subject, your attempt is simply an effort to diminish one horrific act by exemplifying others.  That is immature.

We all have differing points of view, but I would hope that we can agree that the systematic extermination of any race or religion of people is wrong. 

Thanks for the mud, but no thanks.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Did you read the insert about abomination?

Goes again to the question I asked a little while back about what constitutes an abominable, genocidal type act?  Is it the 2500 casualties suffered by Israel?  Or the 65,000 suffered by Palestinians?  Or a few dozen?

My official stance;
They are ALL bad!  They are ALL unspeakably hideous!  They are all disgusting, despicable acts of depravity!

And yet, we appear to have our "favorite" abominations to the exclusion of all others....

[Red Arrow]

Red,
Then read the posts.  Just because Fox says 'fair and balanced' don't make it so....

I re-read the thread.  All I can say is:

Just because heironymouspasparagus says "fair and balanced" don't make it so....

FWIW, my only reference to Fox (June 4, 8:55:26 AM) was to say my sources were NOT Fox.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Where is the balance in the discussion of Israel??  From the US side?? 
Just curious to see where any other side is mentioned.  Especially on Fox.

And still nothing but dissemination - and no answer to the question I posed about what constitutes an abominable, genocidal, hideous act??  Is it just the numbers involved or ??


Wow!  You have certainly cemented your stance here.  Yes there are numerous atrocities committed by humans.  They have little to do with the current subject, so unless your goal is to change the subject, your attempt is simply an effort to diminish one horrific act by exemplifying others.  That is immature.

We all have differing points of view, but I would hope that we can agree that the systematic extermination of any race or religion of people is wrong.


No attempt to diminish anything.  Actually an attempt to highlight.  One might well be justified in trying to set aside the past and move to higher plains and dimensions IF there were any indication that the behavior had changed; if as a society there were a recognition of the wrongs of the past and a sincere attempt and possibly some small effort to act otherwise.  There was a disconnect between that past and the present.  Some obvious change in attitude?

Instead, since we are all still human; there is no real fundamental change in human nature, so the ties to the past are still strong.  We continue to espouse principals until such time as we set them aside to regress to past behavior/attitudes.

[Red Arrow]

I found this site.  I've only had time to read a small portion of it but it seems to present facts.  Maybe it will be 'fair and balanced".

http://www.palestinefacts.org/

[guido911]

Blog story about media spin.

http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2010/06/reuters-brings-fauxtography-to-gaza.html

[heironymouspasparagus]

Red Arrow,
I read through some of it.  Did you??  There is no mention of who put together the web site beyond "by a team of writers and editors who are knowledgeable of the history, politics, economics and military situation in the Middle East, based on information compiled from the best available sources."

So,...tell us what you think about "fair and balanced" from some of the quotes on the page.  I would definitely encourage everyone to look around through this site.  There is some good historical information there.
I am curious as to why someone would go to this much trouble/effort and not put their name on it.  Would not be proud of the effort and want to accept credit for it.  Are they ashamed of what they said or who they are?  Are they trying to hide something??  (I could understand if it were me trying to stay anonymous due to inflammatory dogma, but the site doesn't seem to suffer from my particular proclivities.)

I do know someone who makes the claim of the third statement.  His family (Christian Palestinian - a very tiny minority in the area) were forcibly - as in by guns pointing at their heads - removed from the family home.  There are Israeli's living there today.  I also know a couple of Jewish people who had most of the family slaughtered in Germany - which is a sad, tragic commonality to most Jewish families, if my interpretation of their reality is correct.


"Anyone who persists with the question of Israel's right to exist is one whose agenda is to eliminate Israel and its Jewish inhabitants."


"The early Arab attacks resembled the Arab Revolt of 1936-9, with attacks on villages and terrorism in the cities."


"There are now claims from Arab sources that millions of Palestinians were pushed off their land by the Zionists, then expelled by the new State of Israel in the War of Independence in 1948, followed by similar Israeli policies that continue today. What is the truth of these claims?"

[Red Arrow]

Red Arrow,
I read through some of it.  Did you?? 

What don't you understand about:

"I found this site.  I've only had time to read a small portion of it but it seems to present facts.  Maybe it will be 'fair and balanced". "? ? ?

[Red Arrow]

I am curious as to why someone would go to this much trouble/effort and not put their name on it.  Would not be proud of the effort and want to accept credit for it.  Are they ashamed of what they said or who they are?  Are they trying to hide something??  (I could understand if it were me trying to stay anonymous due to inflammatory dogma, but the site doesn't seem to suffer from my particular proclivities.)

Proud? Ashamed? Hide?

Afraid of retaliation for telling the truth?   

Just guessing, same as you.  I agree, it would seem someone would claim the site but if it is backed up with credible references does it really matter?  No, I haven't had time to check it out any further than last night.  I've had other priorities.

[guido911]