Tulsa Crime

[cannon_fodder]

In another world (ie. internet forum) a schlub from El Paso started talking smack about Tulsa.  Basically that we were a crime ridden arm pit of the world.  I jumped on my high horse and road off into the internet to prove him wrong.

To my shock, I can not.  El Paso Texas, along with nearly every other mid-sized city, makes Tulsa look like a crime ridden cesspool.  We DOUBLE the national average per capita for rapes, murders, assaults, and other violent crimes.  We manage to sneak in with an average score for more property crimes.
http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Tulsa&state=OK
(2006 data, but the most handy format to compare cities)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate
(2007 crime count by city, sorry for the wiki source by it's handy)

We rank (per capita) in the top 30 for murder and manslaughter.  WE crack the top 25 for theft, burglary, property crime, and overall violent crime rate.  And we post a stellar top ten performance for assault, arson and rape.

I admit some odd unexpected cities pop up.  Portland has a high arson rate.  Wichita a high rape rate.  But among the usual suspects (Detroit, Toledo, Memphis, Oakland) Tulsa makes it to the top far too often.  I was surprised.

We employ 826 officers and 108 civilian staff for a city under 400,000 people (1 officer/per 464 people).  El Paso, which has 610,000 residents employs 1100/300  (1/554).  Omaha has 820 for it's 430K people (1/525).  Portland employs 1150/350 for it's 570+K people (1/493) . Albuquerque is working towards 1100 officers for it's nearly 500,000 people (1/454).  Our ratio is in line with Wichita, it is in line with or well below all these places and yet our crime far exceeds all those places.

What gives?

A new study says Tulsa should hire 100 more officers and shuffle around the staff:
http://newsok.com/report-tulsa-should-hire-more-police-officers/article/3302594/?tm=1222357540

Why are we not able to maintain an average (or below) level of crime with the same resources every other city uses?  Tulsa is behind El Paso.  Really?

It continuously seems like we can't get anything done in this town.  I'm getting frustrated.

[waterboy]

Here's a coule of dirty little secrets that insiders here talk about. One is that Tulsa is geographically well located for drug trafficking. We have all the infrastructure necessary without all the attention that Miami or LA demand. So, we are a good logistics site. Product arrives by interstate and  private airports and is transported to the coasts and the midwest with little interruption. Ever think about how busy our little airports are and why? OKC is good too, but far less hassle in lil ole Tulsa and we're so easy to live in. The major players are gangs from the coasts and they are moving here. There is friction. Yet sociologically we are unprepared for the havoc this industry brings anymore than we were prepared for the downside of casino gambling. Our reputation as a city that operates like a town is well known. We simply don't face problems head on. We refused to believe that gangs were even here till late in the 90's.

Two, local authority is rumored to be easily bought, unethical attorneys are voluminous and hungry. These are the same criteria that made us a haven for illegal immigration too.

I'll take the risk and point out what the four obstacles to progress are that collide in Tulsa: Casinos, loss of major oil industry, Fundamentalism and drug trafficking. They all combine to suck up the bulk of disposable income and tax revenues. And since Tulsa has such wide disparity in income levels its doubtful the average person in leadership circles is even aware of the relationships forged by being poorly paid and educated. They just want to build more jails.

Doubt there's much data supporting my thesis. Who would want to document it? Certainly not the casinoes, religious extremists, authorities or drug dealers. Sorry for the rant. I'm pretty frustrated by the whole process and don't care anymore about niceties.

[Michael71]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Here's a coule of dirty little secrets that insiders here talk about. One is that Tulsa is geographically well located for drug trafficking. We have all the infrastructure necessary without all the attention that Miami or LA demand. So, we are a good logistics site. Product arrives by interstate and  private airports and is transported to the coasts and the midwest with little interruption. Ever think about how busy our little airports are and why? OKC is good too, but far less hassle in lil ole Tulsa and we're so easy to live in. The major players are gangs from the coasts and they are moving here. There is friction. Yet sociologically we are unprepared for the havoc this industry brings anymore than we were prepared for the downside of casino gambling. Our reputation as a city that operates like a town is well known. We simply don't face problems head on. We refused to believe that gangs were even here till late in the 90's.

Two, local authority is rumored to be easily bought, unethical attorneys are voluminous and hungry. These are the same criteria that made us a haven for illegal immigration too.

I'll take the risk and point out what the four obstacles to progress are that collide in Tulsa: Casinos, loss of major oil industry, Fundamentalism and drug trafficking. They all combine to suck up the bulk of disposable income and tax revenues. And since Tulsa has such wide disparity in income levels its doubtful the average person in leadership circles is even aware of the relationships forged by being poorly paid and educated. They just want to build more jails.

Doubt there's much data supporting my thesis. Who would want to document it? Certainly not the casinoes, religious extremists, authorities or drug dealers. Sorry for the rant. I'm pretty frustrated by the whole process and don't care anymore about niceties.

What is your issue with casinos? Isn't disposable income...err, disposable income?

I do alot of business with them & they seem to be honest & well organized.

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

In another world (ie. internet forum) a schlub from El Paso started talking smack about Tulsa.  Basically that we were a crime ridden arm pit of the world.  I jumped on my high horse and road off into the internet to prove him wrong.

To my shock, I can not.  El Paso Texas, along with nearly every other mid-sized city, makes Tulsa look like a crime ridden cesspool.  We DOUBLE the national average per capita for rapes, murders, assaults, and other violent crimes.  We manage to sneak in with an average score for more property crimes.
http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Tulsa&state=OK
(2006 data, but the most handy format to compare cities)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate
(2007 crime count by city, sorry for the wiki source by it's handy)

We rank (per capita) in the top 30 for murder and manslaughter.  WE crack the top 25 for theft, burglary, property crime, and overall violent crime rate.  And we post a stellar top ten performance for assault, arson and rape.

I admit some odd unexpected cities pop up.  Portland has a high arson rate.  Wichita a high rape rate.  But among the usual suspects (Detroit, Toledo, Memphis, Oakland) Tulsa makes it to the top far too often.  I was surprised.

We employ 826 officers and 108 civilian staff for a city under 400,000 people (1 officer/per 464 people).  El Paso, which has 610,000 residents employs 1100/300  (1/554).  Omaha has 820 for it's 430K people (1/525).  Portland employs 1150/350 for it's 570+K people (1/493) . Albuquerque is working towards 1100 officers for it's nearly 500,000 people (1/454).  Our ratio is in line with Wichita, it is in line with or well below all these places and yet our crime far exceeds all those places.

What gives?

A new study says Tulsa should hire 100 more officers and shuffle around the staff:
http://newsok.com/report-tulsa-should-hire-more-police-officers/article/3302594/?tm=1222357540

Why are we not able to maintain an average (or below) level of crime with the same resources every other city uses?  Tulsa is behind El Paso.  Really?

It continuously seems like we can't get anything done in this town.  I'm getting frustrated.

Can you find how many civilian employees those cities have to work along with the sworn officers?  I would bet they have more or almost double what Tulsa currently has.  

Don't assume that we actually have 826 officers working on the "streets".  One of the problems with our police department is that alot of them are currently doing jobs that civilians could be doing.  The manpower study talked about it at length but I don't have it in front of me to quote from it.

There are other issues but I'll try to get back to the thread later and talk about them.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelWayne_71


What is your issue with casinos? Isn't disposable income...err, disposable income?

I do alot of business with them & they seem to be honest & well organized.

Are you on the giving or recieving end of business w/ the casinos?

[}:)]

[unknown]

http://www.kjrh.com/media/news/4/c/7/4c76a716-3f45-4818-b10d-f206d93b516e/Part_1_3_yearsnew.pdf

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=75585

Texas says it is seeing an increase in violet crime due to illegals coming from Oklahoma and Arizona

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

In another world (ie. internet forum) a schlub from El Paso started talking smack about Tulsa.  Basically that we were a crime ridden arm pit of the world.  I jumped on my high horse and road off into the internet to prove him wrong.

To my shock, I can not.  El Paso Texas, along with nearly every other mid-sized city, makes Tulsa look like a crime ridden cesspool.  We DOUBLE the national average per capita for rapes, murders, assaults, and other violent crimes.  We manage to sneak in with an average score for more property crimes.
http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Tulsa&state=OK
(2006 data, but the most handy format to compare cities)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate
(2007 crime count by city, sorry for the wiki source by it's handy)

We rank (per capita) in the top 30 for murder and manslaughter.  WE crack the top 25 for theft, burglary, property crime, and overall violent crime rate.  And we post a stellar top ten performance for assault, arson and rape.

I admit some odd unexpected cities pop up.  Portland has a high arson rate.  Wichita a high rape rate.  But among the usual suspects (Detroit, Toledo, Memphis, Oakland) Tulsa makes it to the top far too often.  I was surprised.

We employ 826 officers and 108 civilian staff for a city under 400,000 people (1 officer/per 464 people).  El Paso, which has 610,000 residents employs 1100/300  (1/554).  Omaha has 820 for it's 430K people (1/525).  Portland employs 1150/350 for it's 570+K people (1/493) . Albuquerque is working towards 1100 officers for it's nearly 500,000 people (1/454).  Our ratio is in line with Wichita, it is in line with or well below all these places and yet our crime far exceeds all those places.

What gives?

A new study says Tulsa should hire 100 more officers and shuffle around the staff:
http://newsok.com/report-tulsa-should-hire-more-police-officers/article/3302594/?tm=1222357540

Why are we not able to maintain an average (or below) level of crime with the same resources every other city uses?  Tulsa is behind El Paso.  Really?

It continuously seems like we can't get anything done in this town.  I'm getting frustrated.

Can you find how many civilian employees those cities have to work along with the sworn officers?  I would bet they have more or almost double what Tulsa currently has.  

Don't assume that we actually have 826 officers working on the "streets".  One of the problems with our police department is that alot of them are currently doing jobs that civilians could be doing.  The manpower study talked about it at length but I don't have it in front of me to quote from it.

There are other issues but I'll try to get back to the thread later and talk about them.

[cannon_fodder]

MH:  I provided a little info on officer/civilian forces (El Paso) but generally good stats are hard to come by.  Not sure why.  I thought I would easily find a list of officers by city.

There's a Sociology, Criminology, or City Planning masters study in this for someone I'm sure.
- - -

The problem with Casino's is not Joe Blow Accountant going out with some friends and dropping $300 in the poker room - it's Joe Mechanic or Mama Social Security dropping their entire pay check.  Or the attorney dropping his kids college money.  The casual player is very good for the economy, money circulates around.  Not the casino's fault that people don't know when to pocket their chips I guess.

[TUalum0982]

CF I am not going to argue or refute your stats and I enjoy reading your posts, but crime stats can be very misleading and skewed.  They are biased in the aspect that they can be contorted and twisted into whatever point the "author" is trying to convey.

Once again, not trying to argue or disagree with you, but alot of crimes go unreported or aren't counted in the tabulation at all.

EDIT:

I personally think we could use more officers in the city of Tulsa.  When I interned with TPD, I was told numerous times by numerous officials that their manpower levels are at the same level as they were in the 80's not to mention all the officers they have lot to retirement, military and going elsewhere to pursue other jobs/careers.

[cannon_fodder]

Alum:  I agree and understands stats can be skewed.  But it seems unlikely that Tulsa would for some reason report twice as many crimes per capita without there being some correlation with reality.  If that is the case, we need to change our reporting scheme to bring it in line with the rest of the nation.

Appearance is as important to an engineer in Detroit considering El Paso or Tulsa as a new home - and it appears El Paso is the much safer city.  In fact, other than the stats it is very hard to get a good feel for it.  You can live in a high crime area and not be a victim, or you can live in rural Oklahoma and see your daughter gunned down for no reason.  Statistics are what we have to rely on to see the bigger picture, if ours are skewed they should be corrected.

Still the cities problem.

[patric]

Not going to be an easy answer to that one.
Too many ingredients in the mix -- you can attribute some spikes to things like hurricane evacuees or economic downturns, as well as shifts in political attitudes (high-profile policing for prevention Vs low-profile policing for revenue collection), etc.

Weve never really been realistic in the "war on drugs" because it's a medical problem that has snowballed into a multi-billion dollar industry on both sides.  

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

Don't assume that we actually have 826 officers working on the "streets".  One of the problems with our police department is that alot of them are currently doing jobs that civilians could be doing.

When I was a renter I lived across from an officer near TU who never seemed to leave his house for more than a few minutes.  Long enough to get groceries and fill up the cruiser whose engine he routinely left running in the street.  Never figured that one out (he also kept goats in the back yard [:O] so go figure).

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelWayne_71

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Here's a coule of dirty little secrets that insiders here talk about. One is that Tulsa is geographically well located for drug trafficking. We have all the infrastructure necessary without all the attention that Miami or LA demand. So, we are a good logistics site. Product arrives by interstate and  private airports and is transported to the coasts and the midwest with little interruption. Ever think about how busy our little airports are and why? OKC is good too, but far less hassle in lil ole Tulsa and we're so easy to live in. The major players are gangs from the coasts and they are moving here. There is friction. Yet sociologically we are unprepared for the havoc this industry brings anymore than we were prepared for the downside of casino gambling. Our reputation as a city that operates like a town is well known. We simply don't face problems head on. We refused to believe that gangs were even here till late in the 90's.

Two, local authority is rumored to be easily bought, unethical attorneys are voluminous and hungry. These are the same criteria that made us a haven for illegal immigration too.

I'll take the risk and point out what the four obstacles to progress are that collide in Tulsa: Casinos, loss of major oil industry, Fundamentalism and drug trafficking. They all combine to suck up the bulk of disposable income and tax revenues. And since Tulsa has such wide disparity in income levels its doubtful the average person in leadership circles is even aware of the relationships forged by being poorly paid and educated. They just want to build more jails.

Doubt there's much data supporting my thesis. Who would want to document it? Certainly not the casinoes, religious extremists, authorities or drug dealers. Sorry for the rant. I'm pretty frustrated by the whole process and don't care anymore about niceties.

What is your issue with casinos? Isn't disposable income...err, disposable income?

I do alot of business with them & they seem to be honest & well organized.

Well organized for sure. For every dollar that enters their doors, 98 cents stays with the casino. That is money going to a separate country. The state of Oklahoma receives less than the taxes recieved when you spend the same amount of money at Target. Of course, Target does not discriminate by nationality when they hire. And they don't create social damage.

I'm glad you receive some benefit either with a business relationship or through winnings but the sad truth is that the entire city's personality changed when they were allowed to expand. Don't take my word for it, take a phone book from ten or twenty years ago and look at the variety of small businesses in entertainment, shopping, theatre etc. that was available vs now. Look at who the large advertisers were. Look at OKC who has one tiny bingo hall and compare their opportunities to ours. Look at how tax revenues were affected. It is a net negative as far as revenue and business development for the city not to mention the increase in gambling maladies like addiction.

But yeah, they're well run and organized.

[PonderInc]

I know a guy who's a detective in the Tulsa PD.  He says that compulsive gambling has fueled an increase in burglaries in Tulsa.  

He says that whenever they're looking for a suspect in a burglary, the first thing they do is stake out the casinos and watch for their cars.

He even said that some people will tell you that they can go a few days without drugs, but they need to gamble every day!  Yikes!

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

MH:  I provided a little info on officer/civilian forces (El Paso) but generally good stats are hard to come by.  Not sure why.  I thought I would easily find a list of officers by city.

There's a Sociology, Criminology, or City Planning masters study in this for someone I'm sure.
- - -

The problem with Casino's is not Joe Blow Accountant going out with some friends and dropping $300 in the poker room - it's Joe Mechanic or Mama Social Security dropping their entire pay check.  Or the attorney dropping his kids college money.  The casual player is very good for the economy, money circulates around.  Not the casino's fault that people don't know when to pocket their chips I guess.

I could never find them either.  I'm glad I wasn't the only one.

[TheArtist]

We have been through this converstation before trying to find what causes our area to be high crime, high divorce rates, suicide, high drug use, high rates of child abuse and neglect, high rates of hunger, obesity, poor health, tobacco use, etc. etc. etc. In just about every such category we rank down in the bottom 5 states.  

When I posited the usual suspects of low income levels and education...Cannon brought up a bunch of stats showing that we didnt do that poorly in those areas. So I dont know what the deal is. One can take other guesses... but its usually things that you cant politically change or people would get upset and angry about.