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November 20, 2017, 06:02:19 am
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Author Topic: New Jail Pact- Deadline Looms  (Read 13364 times)
carltonplace
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« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2008, 08:15:41 am »

The city also provides the ADC on Charles Page to the county for $1 per year which the county then sublets to another entity.

You don't want to pay for my inmates? What if I and the rest of the citizens of Tulsa decided we don't want to pay for county roads or emergency services to unincorporated areas? Would you be your own fire department? Would you pay for your own rural school? This bad blood between the county and the cuty can only lead to an every man for himself mentality and I'm sure that the county would be on the losing end of that outcome.
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nsugrad_05
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« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2008, 10:49:32 am »

quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace

The city also provides the ADC on Charles Page to the county for $1 per year which the county then sublets to another entity.

You don't want to pay for my inmates? What if I and the rest of the citizens of Tulsa decided we don't want to pay for county roads or emergency services to unincorporated areas? Would you be your own fire department? Would you pay for your own rural school? This bad blood between the county and the cuty can only lead to an every man for himself mentality and I'm sure that the county would be on the losing end of that outcome.



My area has an independent school district and a fire department. We BUY water from the city of Tulsa and that about it. Your anger is misplaced. If the city thought that this was going to be a permanent solution, then they should have had that in the contract. They did not do that, therefore the city has themselves and their leadership to blame.
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RecycleMichael
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« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2008, 12:45:14 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by nsugrad_05
If the city thought that this was going to be a permanent solution, then they should have had that in the contract. They did not do that, therefore the city has themselves and their leadership to blame.



I don't understand. There is a good contract for all these years and then the county wants a couple of million extra dollars a year and it is the city's fault?

I could argue both sides of this...but you seem to blame the city completely. What is your position with the county?
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nsugrad_05
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« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2008, 05:10:04 pm »

The county has run the jail for the last 3 years, very successfully in my opinion. The bad releases are way down, there have been no major incidents for quite some time, and there have not been any successful lawsuits against the Sheriff's Office.

The cost to house inmates has been in an upward trend for years, due to higher food and utility prices. Not to mention all of the extra stuff that the operator of the jail is required to do based on new legislation and case law.

Very simply however, the tax vote in 1995 was to build and operate a County Jail. That is what the ballot read and that is what the voter's passed. The agreement between the city and county was extended several times to what was eventually 11-12 years. The county determined that the rate of 54.13 was the fair rate to charge ANY (not just Tulsa) municipality that wanted to house any municipal inmates.

Due to the previous relationship with the city, the county offered to house 27 inmates at no direct cost to the city in order to offset any rent that was due the city for the use of the 3rd floor holding area and the old ADC.  

The county made its initial proposal several months before the current agreement expired. Mayor Taylor and the city chose to sit on it and not even counter until the current contract had already expired. Then when it came down to it, the city found itself in a bind and had to do something to save face and started screaming how this was unfair. I have said before, if the city of Tulsa thought the agreement was going to be perpetual then they should have gotten that in the contract.

Voters in the city of Tulsa did not vote on a City-County jail, the ballot was to build and operate a county jail. And to say otherwise, is dishonest or ignorant, in my opiniom. No offense intended.

It is my opinion that the city is demanding preferential treatment due to the fact that the city is bigger than everyone elsea and for no other reason.
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RecycleMichael
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« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2008, 05:21:26 pm »

How much money did the other communities pay to Tulsa County last year to house their municipal prisoners?
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inteller
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« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2008, 09:43:56 pm »

you know, I think it is highly ironic that KKT is suing on the basis that the voters were misled on the intent of the bond passed for a "city-county jail".  On that basis I should sue her for allocating $3mill from third penny money for street widening under the guise of "stimulating private economic development".

She better watch out opening that pandora's box because if she is successful get ready for a boatload of qui tam suits.
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nsugrad_05
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« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2008, 10:12:32 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael

How much money did the other communities pay to Tulsa County last year to house their municipal prisoners?



Thats the point. All of the other cities have their own city jails to hold municipal prisoners. The county has in the past however held a handful for at least one city. I dont know what the fee was but I know there was one. It was a situation where the city judge ordered a defendant to serve 10 days. That particular town only has a holding facility and was unable to hold them for the time alloted by the judge. So that town paid a fee to the county. Again, I think that this has happened a couple of times.

So the other towns in the county pay for their city jail as well as the sales tax for the county jail.

The resolution passed by the county commissioners earlier this year, however, now sets out that any city in the county will have to pay $54.13 per day to house municipal prisoners.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 10:13:42 pm by nsugrad_05 » Logged
RecycleMichael
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« Reply #52 on: December 16, 2008, 06:48:12 am »

But today's paper says that no other area town has paid to house prisoners. Ever. The only community to house prisoners will suddenly start getting a bill for it.

So this isn't some fairness thing like you claim. This is Tulsa County just wanting to charge the City of Tulsa more money.

It all sounds like payback for the city annexing the fairgrounds to me.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 06:50:11 am by RecycleMichael » Logged

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nsugrad_05
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« Reply #53 on: December 16, 2008, 07:24:13 am »

quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael

But today's paper says that no other area town has paid to house prisoners. Ever. The only community to house prisoners will suddenly start getting a bill for it.

So this isn't some fairness thing like you claim. This is Tulsa County just wanting to charge the City of Tulsa more money.

It all sounds like payback for the city

annexing the fairgrounds to me.



Not sure about the paper. But I know for sure it has happened at least twice.

What does the county lose from the city annexing the fairgrounds? On the surface that doesnt seem to make since. The county will still run everything out there, wont they? Really the only thing that will change is law enforcement.
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RecycleMichael
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« Reply #54 on: December 16, 2008, 01:23:53 pm »

I really don't have much of a dog in this hunt. I also don't know nothin' about no jail operations. I have never been in the facility since it opened and I hope to keep that streak alive.

I didn't have an opinion until I read that the Tulsa County Jail showed a profit last year and still wants to get two million dollars more per year from the City of Tulsa.

I am just amazed that this whole thing has come up. The contract terms seemed fair 13 years ago and now the county says they are not. I know that operation expenses have gone up over the 13 years, but so has the amount of dedicated funding that is used to pay for operations.

This was the first time the county was able to tap into the funding area of sales tax. The vote back then would have never passed without the City of Tulsa's support. I personally don't like the county in the sales tax business nor the city in the property tax business, but voters must have felt otherwise.

Again, this all sounds like some payback to me.

Now, the county has said that Tulsa can't use the law firm they contracted with because that same firm has done some county work. Also yesterday, they decided to spend public dollars hiring defense attorney Clark Brewster to represent the Sheriff.  

This is a very interesting, public, and sad crumbling of the relationship between the city and the county.
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godboko71
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« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2008, 05:21:36 pm »

*Thinks that the other towns within the county having to pay is a moot point, because none of the towns in the county should have to pay twice to jail prisoners in the county jail.
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Wilbur
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« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2008, 06:13:56 am »

quote:
Originally posted by godboko71

*Thinks that the other towns within the county having to pay is a moot point, because none of the towns in the county should have to pay twice to jail prisoners in the county jail.


The moot point is exactly correct.

Other towns have their own jails and house their own prisoners when the prisoner is arrested only on city misdemeanor charges.  The prisoner never goes to the country jail, so the town never gets billed.

If the prisoner is arrested on state charges, the prisoner goes to the country jail.  Since the prisoner is in the country jail on state charges, the town never gets billed.

It really is moot.
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carltonplace
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« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2008, 12:44:26 pm »

If this jail was never meant to be used for City of Tulsa misdemeanor inmates, then why did we start using it as such? Why was it built in Tulsa?

Tulsa already had/has jail space for its misdemeanor inmates but that space is now used by the county since we hold our inmates at the county jail which Tulsans pay the lion's share for.

I don't want the county jail in the city of Tulsa, especially if we can't/shouldn't keep people there overnight. I hope this goes badly so we can draw a straight line between what is city and what is county. They can get out of our rent free offices, our gratis holding cells at the court house and out of the minimal rent ADC. In turn we'll have space for our own. They want $54 per day, I say we give them nothing...nothing across the board.

Let's unravel the health department and the libraries and county parks while we're at it.  The city of Tulsa can collect the existing tax to support the ones that are inside city limits and the county can run the rest. I can't really think of any reason why I should pay for the Sherrif's gas or salary either.

Close the borders...money collected in the city of Tulsa can stay here. Let's end city to city to rural subsidies.
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nsugrad_05
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« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2008, 02:21:24 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace

If this jail was never meant to be used for City of Tulsa misdemeanor inmates, then why did we start using it as such? Why was it built in Tulsa?

Tulsa already had/has jail space for its misdemeanor inmates but that space is now used by the county since we hold our inmates at the county jail which Tulsans pay the lion's share for.

I don't want the county jail in the city of Tulsa, especially if we can't/shouldn't keep people there overnight. I hope this goes badly so we can draw a straight line between what is city and what is county. They can get out of our rent free offices, our gratis holding cells at the court house and out of the minimal rent ADC. In turn we'll have space for our own. They want $54 per day, I say we give them nothing...nothing across the board.

Let's unravel the health department and the libraries and county parks while we're at it.  The city of Tulsa can collect the existing tax to support the ones that are inside city limits and the county can run the rest. I can't really think of any reason why I should pay for the Sherrif's gas or salary either.

Close the borders...money collected in the city of Tulsa can stay here. Let's end city to city to rural subsidies.



The new jail houses city inmates because the city and county had a contract that expired July 1, 2008. The county jail was built in Tulsa because the courthouse is in Tulsa, where inmates go to court.

The county gets nothing free. Under the old contract, the city got 116 beds that it was not charged for as an offset for the use of the 3rd floor of the city building and the old ADC.

You pay for the sheriff's gas and salary because the laws of the state of Oklahoma make the Sheriff the primary law enforcemnet officer in the county.

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Wilbur
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« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2008, 05:35:33 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace

If this jail was never meant to be used for City of Tulsa misdemeanor inmates, then why did we start using it as such? Why was it built in Tulsa?

Tulsa already had/has jail space for its misdemeanor inmates but that space is now used by the county since we hold our inmates at the county jail which Tulsans pay the lion's share for.

I don't want the county jail in the city of Tulsa, especially if we can't/shouldn't keep people there overnight. I hope this goes badly so we can draw a straight line between what is city and what is county. They can get out of our rent free offices, our gratis holding cells at the court house and out of the minimal rent ADC. In turn we'll have space for our own. They want $54 per day, I say we give them nothing...nothing across the board.

Let's unravel the health department and the libraries and county parks while we're at it.  The city of Tulsa can collect the existing tax to support the ones that are inside city limits and the county can run the rest. I can't really think of any reason why I should pay for the Sherrif's gas or salary either.

Close the borders...money collected in the city of Tulsa can stay here. Let's end city to city to rural subsidies.


The city of Tulsa has not had its own separate city jail staffed by city of Tulsa employees in several decades.  They have always shared the jail and/or jail duties.
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