Where're all the 20 somethings?

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Where are they?  Lets see, most of my friends moved to Dallas, Austin and Denver. I stayed, hoping things would get better,,, now I am a single 40 something who hasn't had a decent date since,,,, well, when I too was in my 20s lol. Oh well perhaps the old axiom really is true, Life sucks, then you die. [] You think its tough dating in this town when your in your 20s, try fining someone decent and single when your in your 40s.  Plus, I have noticed that there are sooo many poor people in this area. To try and find someone thats; bright, doesn't smoke, has a decent job, travels, good sense of self, is ambitious, in decent shape, aka a normal person,,,, is almost like asking for the impossible here. And YES I am bitter and jaded and have every right to be dang it lol. [8D]  

But if you know anyone who is single.....[][]

Bingo.  I stayed thinking it would work out for me.   Most of my peer group from college is gone.  In larger cities, YP's are all running around making $100k plus.  Here, $60k is about the average for a young professional in my estimation.  We don't have the demand, we don't have the salaries, therefore, we don't have the yuppies.  I agree with Inteller that a lot of YP's are in debt up to their eyeballs and don't really know how to handle their finances. Not everyone who makes $100k a year feels the need to blow every penny.  I know what I make, and I know what a lot of my friends make.  I honestly don't know how they can afford the $200 jeans, sushi nightly, bar three times a week, new BMWs, and higher rents in the big city.

[we vs us]

Thanks for all the replies.  I'm not really trying to find the actual 20 somethings in Tulsa, but was more asking after the demographics of the city.  Looking around at the different growth initiatives being tossed around, I'm still not sure who exactly Tulsa's marketing to, and if those people even exist here.  

I'm definitely aware of the foibles of marketing to the Yups of the world.  They're notoriously fickle, tend to light out for the burbs after they start families, etc. And yeah, stupid spending practices (ie debt debt debt) is part of that. But they do what families don't, which is keep the cash flowing.  

Two of the other free-spending demographics I don't really see around here are Boomerang Boomers (retirees whose kids are gone and want to downsize, but are also looking for culture and excitement and stuff to do) and a strong contingent of gay folks.  In Chicago, there're several predominantly gay neighborhoods, all of whom started off as gang territory and have ended up as some of the richest neighborhoods in the city.  I understand there might be some obstacles to a demographic like that down here (*ahem* fundamentalism *ahem*), but I'm mostly just looking for the groups in Tulsa that have some cash and are looking to spend it on lifestyle.

I mean, seriously, who is that?

[TulsaSooner]

Do a survey at Utica Square, I think that's where all of them are mingling.

[Conan71]

I'm growing weary of the assertion that Tulsa is full of boring people and has no place interesting to go.  The people who are glass-half-full are out enjoying the city and all it has to offer and the people who are glass-half-empty sit at home and snipe about how there's nothing to do here.  That mentality will never be satisfied.  That's the same mentality which would say "Other than Beale St., Memphis sucks."

I'm a little older than the overly-vaunted "YP" demographic.  I have had zero trouble filling two weekends full of dining, entertainment, and activities and saw lots of 20 somethings out enjoying life in Tulsa as well.

Tulsa has several different concentrations of dining and entertainment districts which appeal to a younger to middle-age crowd.  We are incredibly fortunate for that.  It doesn't all have to be concentrated in one area.  People go to a place like the French Quarter in New Orleans, Beale St. in Memphis, Bricktown in OKC, Lo-Do in Denver, etc. and assume that every city should have all arts/entertainment/dining/drinking in one four or six block area for it the city to have a meaningful life support system for YP's.

Tulsa has the Brady District, Blue Dome, Cherry St., Brookside, SoBo, and Riverwalk Crossing.  Our entertainment districts are diverse and that dilutes the choices into different geographical areas instead of one big district.  If you are in one district, chances are, the other 5/6's of out-going YPs are hanging out in the other areas at that time.

Walk around Riverwalk Crossing on any weekend night during the summer.  The YP's are thick as can be.  Same with any other area.

There's no problem with Tulsa other than some people with social myopia and short attention spans.  Countless concepts have come and gone that just didn't do well here.  People hear about a trend on one coast or the other, some entrepreneur brings it here, it's a hit for a few months, people lose interest and move on to something else.  It folds up and people say: "That didn't make it because Tulsa sucks".  

Most YP's are probably having too much fun exploring and enjoying what Tulsa does have to offer than sit around at home and muse about how there's nothing for YP's to do in this city.

Make the most of it.  Chances are if Tulsa sucks to you, eventually Denver, Chicago, NYC, Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, LA, etc. ad nauseum will eventually suck to you as well.

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I'm growing weary of the assertion that Tulsa is full of boring people and has no place interesting to go.  The people who are glass-half-full are out enjoying the city and all it has to offer and the people who are glass-half-empty sit at home and snipe about how there's nothing to do here.  That mentality will never be satisfied.  That's the same mentality which would say "Other than Beale St., Memphis sucks."

I'm a little older than the overly-vaunted "YP" demographic.  I have had zero trouble filling two weekends full of dining, entertainment, and activities and saw lots of 20 somethings out enjoying life in Tulsa as well.

Tulsa has several different concentrations of dining and entertainment districts which appeal to a younger to middle-age crowd.  We are incredibly fortunate for that.  It doesn't all have to be concentrated in one area.  People go to a place like the French Quarter in New Orleans, Beale St. in Memphis, Bricktown in OKC, Lo-Do in Denver, etc. and assume that every city should have all arts/entertainment/dining/drinking in one four or six block area for it the city to have a meaningful life support system for YP's.

Tulsa has the Brady District, Blue Dome, Cherry St., Brookside, SoBo, and Riverwalk Crossing.  Our entertainment districts are diverse and that dilutes the choices into different geographical areas instead of one big district.  If you are in one district, chances are, the other 5/6's of out-going YPs are hanging out in the other areas at that time.

Walk around Riverwalk Crossing on any weekend night during the summer.  The YP's are thick as can be.  Same with any other area.

There's no problem with Tulsa other than some people with social myopia and short attention spans.  Countless concepts have come and gone that just didn't do well here.  People hear about a trend on one coast or the other, some entrepreneur brings it here, it's a hit for a few months, people lose interest and move on to something else.  It folds up and people say: "That didn't make it because Tulsa sucks".  

Most YP's are probably having too much fun exploring and enjoying what Tulsa does have to offer than sit around at home and muse about how there's nothing for YP's to do in this city.

Make the most of it.  Chances are if Tulsa sucks to you, eventually Denver, Chicago, NYC, Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, LA, etc. ad nauseum will eventually suck to you as well.

I agree, we have a very active mixed demographic in Tulsa.  Go to 1740 Wine Bar on a Friday or Saturday evening and look at the buzz of young people.  I mention that place because you can see all demographics mixing and mingling in the surrounding restaurants and clubs.

RiverWalk Crossing is also an excellent example.  You can see young professionals, families, and the pierced nipple and green hair crowd (future dependents).  We have fun, exciting, environments for people from every walk of life.  

I am a people watcher, and I've lived in several large metropolitan cities.  You can find everything you want in Tulsa.  

No, we don't have a weekly clothing optional gay pride parade or NAMBLA festival yet, but I'm sure it's coming soon. . . And we are sorely lacking in the $1,000 a month 200 sq/ft. stacked apartment living department, because we have plenty of land.  

Our public transportation system sucks because we have plenty of parking and our medium and low income families can afford a house with a garage or at least a front yard to park the Camero in.

We have just about every type of community that a Young Professional could want to live in, however what we lack is the "excitement" of living in a community that creates the stress, both financial and emotional, that some young people seek.  





If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart;
and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head.
-- Winston Churchill

[dayzella]

I was playing with Zillow today and noticed this in a sidebar:

quote:Who Lives in Tulsa?  The Main 3 Groups of People are:
1.   Urban Empty Nesters  -  Mature families with grown children.
2.  Wise Old Urbanites - Older home-owning city dwellers in older buildings.
3.  Golden Years - Seniors over 65 who live in the city.

The blurbs are based on modeling with the 2000 census.

For Jenks, this is the result that appeared:

quote:
   1. People who live in this neighborhood Urban Power Families - High-income couples with children.
   2. Power Singles - High-income urban singles.
   3. Frugal Families - Lower-income families living in the suburbs.

And for Broken Arrow, this:

quote:
1. People who live in this neighborhood Affluent DINKs - High-income, kid-free couples living in the suburbs.
   2. Movers and Shakers - Mobile suburban couples without kids.
   3. Wide Open Foyers - Suburban families living in large houses.

It may be all the general metropolitan area ... but that doesn't mean all of the population swims through every part of the pool.

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I'm growing weary of the assertion that Tulsa is full of boring people and has no place interesting to go.  

You and Spoonbill both have entirely convincing answers to someone else's thread.  Whether or not Tulsa is interesting or full of boring people really doesn't have anything to do with my question.  As I said, I'm not looking for a new cool sushi bar to hang out at, I'm trying to figure out who's driving development out there in the city.  And I asked it because, I gotta tell ya, Tulsa's lagging a bit, and I'd like to know why.  

Other people have said it -- ar at least implied it --in the OKC thread, and in pretty much every development thread here.  And to tell you the truth, I see it in comparison to other cities I've been to that mirror Tulsa's size and general culture. There's a sense that Tulsa's rejuvenation is behind by about 5 years.  I don't know why that is, whether it's the local economy, the local politics, or the makeup of the city.  So I'm trying to tease it out by bringing up demographics, which would be part of, but not the whole picture.  

I worry, too, because the country's economy is almost surely in a recession at this point, and that means that whatever belated renaissance Tulsa is on the cusp of, just got a lot harder to pull off.  The recession may not hit here very hard -- heck, we've got the energy industry, and that's like a pipeline of gold right now -- but we're still very early and it will get nasty.

And you're right, Spoonbill, it's totally true that I can't wait for NAMBLA and International Mr. Leather to take to the Tulsa streets. I love me some feathered headdresses and/or assless leather chaps. You completely busted me on that one.  I'm hoping to make it a mandatory holiday, so that schoolkids and government workers can come join the Clothesless Gay Parade.  Cool with you?

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by we vs us

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I'm growing weary of the assertion that Tulsa is full of boring people and has no place interesting to go.  

You and Spoonbill both have entirely convincing answers to someone else's thread.  Whether or not Tulsa is interesting or full of boring people really doesn't have anything to do with my question.  As I said, I'm not looking for a new cool sushi bar to hang out at, I'm trying to figure out who's driving development out there in the city.  And I asked it because, I gotta tell ya, Tulsa's lagging a bit, and I'd like to know why.  


I worry, too, because the country's economy is almost surely in a recession at this point, and that means that whatever belated renaissance Tulsa is on the cusp of, just got a lot harder to pull off.  The recession may not hit here very hard -- heck, we've got the energy industry, and that's like a pipeline of gold right now -- but we're still very early and it will get nasty.

Sorry, I must have misunderstood your cryptic goals in this post.  My apologies.

You should have asked "Who's driving development in Tulsa?"

Tulsa development is driven by a small handful of entrepreneurs that are not afraid to fight the city at every turn.  Our city government has created an atmosphere of self destruction that will take time to overcome.  Renewal, and in-fill projects have become too costly with very small economic gain except for a handful of jewels.

As for new development, Tulsa has run out of developable land in the positive demographic growth zones in the South.  This is why you see the South County branded projects and Broken Arrow expansion.  The Tulsa Chamber has done a poor job of marketing the North and East sections of Tulsa that boast of an abundance of developable land.  I can't blame them, because the people of Tulsa have branded these areas as "undesirable".  That's almost impossible to recover from.

For the city core, we have about another 30 years before the development pendulum swings and the redevelopment of downtown becomes attractive to investors again.  For any downtown revitalization to take place, the first step is always to get people living there.  Our obstacle is that it is still very affordable to live in South Tulsa, Jenks, Broken Arrow, or Bixby. . . and the drive is quick and painless to downtown from those areas.  Once it becomes less affordable to live in the outskirts or the commute becomes too difficult, the inner city becomes an attractive option.

20 somethings drive very little when it comes to development.  They make up the entry level work force, but their disposable income base does not represent enough to drive development in this city because our population density is so low.  Perhaps in the next 30 years we will reach a density where they become a more formidable force, but not today.

Currently Tulsa development is driven by the 35+ married with children demographic and higher.  This is a healthy demo for a city to rely on because they are not transient, and they are for the most part politically stable.

As for your recession agenda, that math doesn't work. Our national productivity numbers, GNP, and markets bear out that we are still in a healthy growth phase with minor slowing due to East and West coast housing markets and oil prices.  Locally, development statistics still continue to grow with home building still on the rise and sales only dropping off modestly.

I don't see us lagging.  I see exactly what one can forecast with a little study.  

But that's just my opinion.  I've only worked in the development field for a little over a decade so I could be wrong.

[Conan71]

Wevus,

If you haven't lived in Tulsa a long time, it would be easy to think how much development is lagging here because your point of reference is other cities.  That doesn't disqualify your opinion, however, your yardstick for growth doesn't really give Tulsa a fair shake compared to other cities.  

IMO, a fairer assessment of our development is comparing Tulsa to Tulsa:  not OKC, not Dallas, not KC.

The strides Tulsa has made in development and re-development in the last 10 to 20 years is stunning.  If you didn't live here at the dawn of 1988, it would be hard to appreciate just how far development in Tulsa has come.

20 years ago, Whittier Square was still a pretty scary place- look at what Ziegler has done with surrounding properties and what a gem the once crumbling Circle Cinema has become.

The Brady District was still a bunch of vacant warehouses.  Blue Dome?  Pawn Shops and empty buildings.  Hell, that was the case recently as ten years ago.

Cherry St.- it was just starting to become hip and upbeat after being non-descript for a number of years.

Brookside- that was starting to attract a younger crowd.  Long time anchors like The Brook and Crow Creek still weren't around yet.  Stonehorse was (The Consortium or whatever it's called now).

Riverwalk Crossing- That was still Junior Ramey's hay farm.

SoBo- was already on track.

It's hard to imagine how many hundreds of millions has been invested here just in the last 20 years by the city/county, building owners, and lease-holders if you don't have an idea what Tulsa was, instead of what it still doesn't have compared to other cities.

The only thing Tulsa seems to be missing is enough people to appreciate what it's become and truly utilize the liveability.

The 26 yo YPs are here, but if you have a paradigm that they don't exist, you won't see them around town.

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by spoonbill

Sorry, I must have misunderstood your cryptic goals in this post.  My apologies.

You should have asked "Who's driving development in Tulsa?"

Tulsa development is driven by a small handful of entrepreneurs that are not afraid to fight the city at every turn.  Our city government has created an atmosphere of self destruction that will take time to overcome.  Renewal, and in-fill projects have become too costly with very small economic gain except for a handful of jewels.

As for new development, Tulsa has run out of developable land in the positive demographic growth zones in the South.  This is why you see the South County branded projects and Broken Arrow expansion.  The Tulsa Chamber has done a poor job of marketing the North and East sections of Tulsa that boast of an abundance of developable land.  I can't blame them, because the people of Tulsa have branded these areas as "undesirable".  That's almost impossible to recover from.

For the city core, we have about another 30 years before the development pendulum swings and the redevelopment of downtown becomes attractive to investors again.  For any downtown revitalization to take place, the first step is always to get people living there.  Our obstacle is that it is still very affordable to live in South Tulsa, Jenks, Broken Arrow, or Bixby. . . and the drive is quick and painless to downtown from those areas.  Once it becomes less affordable to live in the outskirts or the commute becomes too difficult, the inner city becomes an attractive option.

20 somethings drive very little when it comes to development.  They make up the entry level work force, but their disposable income base does not represent enough to drive development in this city because our population density is so low.  Perhaps in the next 30 years we will reach a density where they become a more formidable force, but not today.

Currently Tulsa development is driven by the 35+ married with children demographic and higher.  This is a healthy demo for a city to rely on because they are not transient, and they are for the most part politically stable.

As for your recession agenda, that math doesn't work. Our national productivity numbers, GNP, and markets bear out that we are still in a healthy growth phase with minor slowing due to East and West coast housing markets and oil prices.  Locally, development statistics still continue to grow with home building still on the rise and sales only dropping off modestly.

I don't see us lagging.  I see exactly what one can forecast with a little study.  

But that's just my opinion.  I've only worked in the development field for a little over a decade so I could be wrong.

Cool.  I appreciate the feedback, that's more what I was looking for.  My top post was kinda cryptic now that I reread it, so my apologies for throwing weirdness out there.  

Developing living space nearer downtown seems to be at the center of everything.  Everything I read, everyone I talk to, points to that as an absolute need.  So the demand seems to be there, but if it is, I'm at a loss to explain why then there aren't more buildings going up, or warehouses being converted. I know the East End plan fell apart when Wal Mart pulled out, but if demand is what people perceive it to be, I'm surprised that there isn't more action going on out there in general, separate from any Big Plans.  

Hence the question: who's driving the growth?  Is the growth real or simply something we think should happen?  

I really appreciate your summary because it puts a much finer point on trends that I've noticed but been unable to put my finger on.  Hearing a little more about the N and W sides and why they're underregarded helps, as does hearing about why density and land value keep downtown so bare and the burbs full up with prosperous families.  And also confirming what I thought, too, which is that families are driving the growth by and large.  You'll have to forgive me  my fetishization of the "20 something YUP;"  turns out that the place I just left " . . .ranks first in the concentration of young people (ages 25 to 34) living within three miles of downtown."  That's only to point out that I definitely have a bias of experience as to what makes a city go.  

Thanks for bearing with my rambling []

[perspicuity85]

Ok, more perspectives from perspicuity:

Bullsh**t to whoever said they can tell when they're being marketed to.  I personally have done a lot of market research, and statistically, no you can't.  

Do you people want to know what the 20-somethings are doing or not?  I am a 20-something, and I can tell you, we're tired as hell of the bullsh**t in this town.  We're sick and tired of the second-class mentality of this town, Tulsa needs to grow its proverbial balls and get f***ing moving!  Ask anyone from the right demographic, people in my generation f***ing hate places like OKC with its general unprofessional, small-town attitude: we want something better for Tulsa.  Tulsa as I know it is unapologetically Yuppie, better educated, and frankly, more liberal, yes LIBERAL, than the rest of Oklahoma.  And that is the only thing I, as well as scores of other regional college students, like about this town.  Politically, I'm not even very liberal at all, but every other part of Oklahoma I've been to besides Tulsa makes my nationally moderate viewpoints seem like the most radically liberal viewpoints they've ever heard.  Newsflash: that drives me f***ing crazy!!!

Marketing will bring in/keep the right people who will live fast and spend a lot of money in this city.  Hire the right people, and get the job done!  It doesn't matter what the facts are, it matters what the perception of the facts are.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

Ok, more perspectives from perspicuity:

Bullsh**t to whoever said they can tell when they're being marketed to.  I personally have done a lot of market research, and statistically, no you can't.  

Do you people want to know what the 20-somethings are doing or not?  I am a 20-something, and I can tell you, we're tired as hell of the bullsh**t in this town.  We're sick and tired of the second-class mentality of this town, Tulsa needs to grow its proverbial balls and get f***ing moving!  Ask anyone from the right demographic, people in my generation f***ing hate places like OKC with its general unprofessional, small-town attitude: we want something better for Tulsa.  Tulsa as I know it is unapologetically Yuppie, better educated, and frankly, more liberal, yes LIBERAL, than the rest of Oklahoma.  And that is the only thing I, as well as scores of other regional college students, like about this town.  Politically, I'm not even very liberal at all, but every other part of Oklahoma I've been to besides Tulsa makes my nationally moderate viewpoints seem like the most radically liberal viewpoints they've ever heard.  Newsflash: that drives me f***ing crazy!!!

Marketing will bring in/keep the right people who will live fast and spend a lot of money in this city.  Hire the right people, and get the job done!  It doesn't matter what the facts are, it matters what the perception of the facts are.

PWI anyone?

Sure, you can tell when you are being marketed to.  Remember the old ads the Texas Dept. of Tourism used to run?  How about any number of commercials you see on TV or hear on the radio every day.  You are being marketed to if what they are selling appeals to you.  

You can also tell that our Metro Chamber does an abysmal job at truly marketing the area.

If Tulsa doesn't meet your post-grad needs/wants, then don't move back after school.  Do yourself a favor and look into other cities.  Atlanta, St. Louis, NYC, KC, San Diego, Phoenix.  Try somewhere else.  Either you will find you fall in love with where you go which isn't a bad thing.  I did it, many of my friends did it.  I was back in about six months.  

One of my friends lives in Detroit due to needing his company insurance for a special needs child.

Other than one in Phoenix, the rest have migrated back from Santa Monica, Atlanta, Nashville, Charlotte, San Antonio, Dallas, Houston, and others.  

Tulsa is a great place to be young and single, but so is just about any place on the face of the planet if you have the means and education to make it there.  Tulsa is one of the better places to raise kids which is what got a lot of others to move back.  What was exciting right out of college started becoming rat race in about five years.  It happens.

Do what works for you Perspicuity.  I'm not saying don't let the door hit you in the donkey on your way out.  You just sound like someone who owes it to themself to see what else is out there and live it while you can.

[perspicuity85]

Conan, I agree with you.  Completely.  Maybe you weren't expecting that.  I am considering several places to live, but I truly want Tulsa to sway me back home.  I challenge Tulsa because I care about Tulsa.  If it were up to me, I would run for mayor or something.  I can tell you that there are a lot of things Tulsa possesses that it should market to people.  I stick up for Tulsa a lot, only because  I actually know about some aspects of Tulsa that many people my age do not know exist.  I'm the type of person that strives to motivate others, and I don't know how else to be.

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by we vs us

Cool.  I appreciate the feedback, that's more what I was looking for.  My top post was kinda cryptic now that I reread it, so my apologies for throwing weirdness out there.  

Developing living space nearer downtown seems to be at the center of everything.  Everything I read, everyone I talk to, points to that as an absolute need.  So the demand seems to be there, but if it is, I'm at a loss to explain why then there aren't more buildings going up, or warehouses being converted. I know the East End plan fell apart when Wal Mart pulled out, but if demand is what people perceive it to be, I'm surprised that there isn't more action going on out there in general, separate from any Big Plans.  

Hence the question: who's driving the growth?  Is the growth real or simply something we think should happen?  

I really appreciate your summary because it puts a much finer point on trends that I've noticed but been unable to put my finger on.  Hearing a little more about the N and W sides and why they're underregarded helps, as does hearing about why density and land value keep downtown so bare and the burbs full up with prosperous families.  And also confirming what I thought, too, which is that families are driving the growth by and large.  You'll have to forgive me  my fetishization of the "20 something YUP;"  turns out that the place I just left " . . .ranks first in the concentration of young people (ages 25 to 34) living within three miles of downtown."  That's only to point out that I definitely have a bias of experience as to what makes a city go.  

Thanks for bearing with my rambling []

You are quite welcome.  Actually there are quite a few developments down-town that are available for young professionals (willing to live there).  Many are quite nice!

Blair Apartments 28 Historic remodeled apartments
7th & Elwood, 587-6178 or 585-5542

Central Park Condominiums 418 High-rise and townhouses
7th & Denver, 585-5516

Philtower Lofts 25 Luxury high-rise loft apartments
5th & Boston, 584-0331

Tribune Lofts 33 Adaptive reuse to loft style apartments
Archer at Boston, 748-8636

Uptown Renaissance Apartments 159 New townhouse style apartments
10th & Denver, 587-8808

The Village At Central Park 108 New Urbanism townhomes
6th & Peoria, 582-7459  

The problem is that we can't get enough people to live there, because the price does not bear out for the square footage, amenities and proximity to lifestyle.  At the end of the day in Tulsa, everyone gets in their cars and drives South.  Who wants to go home to an empty down-town condo?


PS  Does anyone know what's going on with The Village at Central Park?

They sat vacant for a long time.  The units are very nice, great architecture, and their website says that they are all sold, but when I drive through it looks like a ghost town.  Few cars in the lots and no furnature in the many of the condos.  I've looked up the MLS listings for the area and It looks like they may have been sold as a package to one of the big Tulsa corporations?  Anyone got any info on this?

[TURobY]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

If it were up to me, I would run for mayor or something.

It's funny, because I was considering tossing my hat into the ring as well. LOL. But I have no idea what the eligibility requirements are. Anyone know where I can find that information, preferably online?