Massive new car factory for Pryor

[DowntownDan]

Just remember "Kansas City King" was only moved to Oklahoma because we have better production incentives.

I read that too but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Kansas City has a well known long standing mafia presence. The premise was that Tulsa had "nothing going on" in that regard (at least from the NY perspective) and he was sent here to just start doing mob stuff. I think the plot is supposed to broaden with that having been a pretext, but that line wouldn't make much sense if it were Kansas City.

[tulsabug]

Also, there was an interview with Taylor Sheridan where he mentioned he moved it as Kansas City wasn't remote enough for the plot (and like DowntownDan mentions, has always been a mafia haven). I also like to think it just sounded better as a title. Kansas City King is too wordy and if you're going to move it to Oklahoma, Tulsa is the absolute best choice. It's the most well-known and recognized city in Oklahoma (for good and bad reasons) and really has the best name in the state. They could have set this in OKC but that's a mouthful for a title and most other cities in OK are the same way (or they're completely nondescript). I'm also glad the show isn't populated with cliched Okies.

I've never seen Tulsa as being in Oklahoma, I've seen Oklahoma as being around Tulsa. Every day this is truer.

[DowntownDan]

The Kansas City Kings were also an NBA franchise (now in Sacramento) and that would be something that came to mind with that title.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Also, there was an interview with Taylor Sheridan where he mentioned he moved it as Kansas City wasn't remote enough for the plot (and like DowntownDan mentions, has always been a mafia haven). I also like to think it just sounded better as a title. Kansas City King is too wordy and if you're going to move it to Oklahoma, Tulsa is the absolute best choice. It's the most well-known and recognized city in Oklahoma (for good and bad reasons) and really has the best name in the state. They could have set this in OKC but that's a mouthful for a title and most other cities in OK are the same way (or they're completely nondescript). I'm also glad the show isn't populated with cliched Okies.

I've never seen Tulsa as being in Oklahoma, I've seen Oklahoma as being around Tulsa. Every day this is truer.

Every day Tulsa becomes more assimilated as Oklahoma.  Kinda like the Borg do....

[LandArchPoke]

Not sure if anyone has really been following this... I do wonder how a TIF would play into this if VW picks Mid America if they can try to make a new one eventhough the last did not pass voters.

VW is also looking to build a manufacturing plant for trucks/off road vehicles in a brand of theirs called 'Scout' (link: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/volkswagen-build-own-plant-us-scout-brand-automobilwoche-2023-02-24/)

The Scout brand will be all electric so you'd think it would make sense to build them close to their battery plant location. They have said Scout will be built in the US, so hopefully that means they are focusing on the US for battery production too.

Not sure if any other sites in the US are in the finalist sites for the battery plant beside Mid America with the other site being in Canada.

I do wonder if someone like VW would be interested in Canoo. Frankly the Canoo designs kind of look VW-ish anyways. Imagine VW buying them and being able to scale up a brand of delivery trucks for Walmart, etc. It seems like Canoo has been shopping for a buyer quietly with the Apple rumors, etc. last year. It would give VW incentives already awarded to Canoo plus the new incentives that were laid out for Panasonic that are ready to go.

[shavethewhales]

Ugh. Get ready to be disappointed again. At this point OK is just being used to force other offers to be higher. We've got some decent things to offer on paper, but the state has been proven to be too irrational/turbulent to be trusted with a $billion+ investment. Although I guess that's becoming true of a lot of similar states.

Canada surely has higher costs and more union issues, though sometimes you get what you pay for. Maybe the other states are tapped out with all the billions that have been handed out already, lol. Kansas is getting bogged down try to keep Panasonic moving along. Arkansas probably can't come up with more to offer than us.

I agree that Canoo's end game is likely getting bought out. They have just enough put together to be an acquisition target but still have a long road ahead to be successful on their own.

[LandArchPoke]

Ugh. Get ready to be disappointed again. At this point OK is just being used to force other offers to be higher. We've got some decent things to offer on paper, but the state has been proven to be too irrational/turbulent to be trusted with a $billion+ investment. Although I guess that's becoming true of a lot of similar states.

Canada surely has higher costs and more union issues, though sometimes you get what you pay for. Maybe the other states are tapped out with all the billions that have been handed out already, lol. Kansas is getting bogged down try to keep Panasonic moving along. Arkansas probably can't come up with more to offer than us.

I agree that Canoo's end game is likely getting bought out. They have just enough put together to be an acquisition target but still have a long road ahead to be successful on their own.

The interesting thing about Panasonic is they are now going back to Kansas and demanding they give all their suppliers the same incentives. Generally, the upside to states/local entities giving incentives is know they'll get 2nd and 3rd party suppliers moving in and thus they can point to well if we never gave Panasonic that money then X,XXX amount of jobs would never have came here either and that means millions in additional payroll and taxes. If Panasonic gets their suppliers similar breaks Kansas is getting no upside to anything. Then on top of that you're having to upgrade roads, infrastructure - who is going to be paying for all of that... the employees and residents there through significantly higher property taxes, etc. long term. 

Frankly, Oklahoma might have dodged a giant bullet with that.

Good thing now is the money passed by the legislature last year is still there and the state has said first come first serve. So it does take some guessing out of it and does put us in a better position with say a VW. I think the biggest mistake with Panasonic was how slow our legislature moved last year, they ultimately were what killed the deal along with the complications to the TIF. The TIF would have gotten the $$ amount closer to what Kansas was offering total so I think once that got challenged and how long it took our legislature to get the bill passed Panasonic was done with Oklahoma. I think they probably realized that if it was this difficult to get something for them in Oklahoma, asking for incentives for suppliers stood zero chance here and that Kansas seemed frankly far more desperate. There's good and bad to that.

I have heard that the lack of housing in Mayes County has been a significant concern for many of the larger companies looking at Mid America. Housing costs in Pryor are already crazy and adding a few thousand more jobs will likely push that market into even more distress for more housing. They really need a more cohesive plan from how they plan to increase housing around Mid America and get some developers on board that are willing to start neighborhoods as soon as any major employer announcements are made. Getting large parcels around the park permit ready for housing would be something they could do. Have park officials reach out to large parcel owners and see who is willing to sell and for what $ and then get a masterplan ready for the site and approved so all any home building or apartment developer would have to do is close on the land and it'd be ready to build.

[tulsabug]

The Scout brand will be all electric so you'd think it would make sense to build them close to their battery plant location. They have said Scout will be built in the US, so hopefully that means they are focusing on the US for battery production too.

Not sure if any other sites in the US are in the finalist sites for the battery plant beside Mid America with the other site being in Canada.

There is zero chance VW will be building anything in Oklahoma. There also isn't a great chance at VW actually following through with building Scouts period. They like to throw lots of press releases out there and usually they don't amount to anything. They need a truck in the US market but half-a$$edly copying Rivian isn't going to cut it and they know it. They know it well enough to know it's not worth building a whole new factory for it. The ID-4 is not selling like they thought it would here - now if it were a success then maybe I could see the Scout line happening, but not now.

I do wonder if someone like VW would be interested in Canoo. Frankly the Canoo designs kind of look VW-ish anyways. Imagine VW buying them and being able to scale up a brand of delivery trucks for Walmart, etc. It seems like Canoo has been shopping for a buyer quietly with the Apple rumors, etc. last year. It would give VW incentives already awarded to Canoo plus the new incentives that were laid out for Panasonic that are ready to go.

Maybe somebody would license some tech from Canoo but no one wants that company and VW has their own EV tech that is far superior than what Canoo has come up with. VW already has delivery vans in Europe - they have everything there all the way up to semis. If they do anything, they would probably make a cargo version of the ID Buzz since, well, they always made cargo versions of their buses, and they are building that here. I don't think it's going to sell well because initial pricing is showing waaaaaay out of range and VW is only going to build a stretched version here to go after that practically non-existent mini-van market. VW doesn't understand the US market (and doesn't respect it) so they're always two steps behind and they have been since the 70s.

[swake]

Volkswagen doesn't do well here, but Audi, Porsche and Navistar do.

[LandArchPoke]

There is zero chance VW will be building anything in Oklahoma. There also isn't a great chance at VW actually following through with building Scouts period. They like to throw lots of press releases out there and usually they don't amount to anything. They need a truck in the US market but half-a$$edly copying Rivian isn't going to cut it and they know it. They know it well enough to know it's not worth building a whole new factory for it. The ID-4 is not selling like they thought it would here - now if it were a success then maybe I could see the Scout line happening, but not now.Maybe somebody would license some tech from Canoo but no one wants that company and VW has their own EV tech that is far superior than what Canoo has come up with. VW already has delivery vans in Europe - they have everything there all the way up to semis. If they do anything, they would probably make a cargo version of the ID Buzz since, well, they always made cargo versions of their buses, and they are building that here. I don't think it's going to sell well because initial pricing is showing waaaaaay out of range and VW is only going to build a stretched version here to go after that practically non-existent mini-van market. VW doesn't understand the US market (and doesn't respect it) so they're always two steps behind and they have been since the 70s.

VW is also already building stuff in Oklahoma via Navistar lol.

I don't think the tech is really something VW would find value in via Canoo. The Walmart contract and foot in the door with them could be extremely lucrative. That's the only reason Rivian has any value is the Amazon connection.

VW's problem with the US market is they've never produced vehicles the style American's want. The Jetta was pretty popular for a while but the US has pivoted back to SUVs now that they have become more fuel efficient. The only SUV they've ever designed that wasn't butt ugly is the Toureig and they stopped selling it in the US because it was essentially an Audi Q5 for almost the same price without the brand prestige.

Scout is a real and popular vehicle from the past and they acquired that via mergers/acquisitions. It looked very similar to a Bronco from that era. The Scout naming, brand, etc. isn't something they just came up with - it's not that dissimilar to Ford bringing back the Bronco which has been incredibly popular.

I'm not saying Scout/VW will build an auto plant here - that's just speculation based on them announcing they are not interested in co-developing the brand any longer. VW is building a plant to produce Scout vehicles, that's not speculation and they are actively looking for a USA location. VW has plenty of $$ to spend and while you are right the VW brand hasn't really caught on in the US like Europe the Audi, Porsche, etc. are all incredibly popular here. It would make sense to try and locate the Scout plant next to where they build a battery plant. Canoo also has a pretty solid economic package in place that beyond the Walmart contract could be attractive to VW in addition to what they'd get for a battery plant via the Panasonic $$ that's available still.

With Navistar already in Tulsa, who knows. Navistar was officially under the VW umbrella in 2021, after the lease issues/renewal with the Tulsa plant in 2020.

[tulsabug]

Volkswagen doesn't do well here, but Audi, Porsche and Navistar do.

Audi and Porsche actually don't either. Now Porsche is a pretty low-volume manufacturer anyways, that's the nature of their beast. The US is actually Porsche's smallest market. Within luxury marques Audi is, at best a second-thought and their sales show that. For as big of a manufacturer as VW is, their US sales are pathetic, and they have been since the 70s.

VW is also already building stuff in Oklahoma via Navistar lol.

I don't think the tech is really something VW would find value in via Canoo. The Walmart contract and foot in the door with them could be extremely lucrative. That's the only reason Rivian has any value is the Amazon connection.

VW's problem with the US market is they've never produced vehicles the style American's want. The Jetta was pretty popular for a while but the US has pivoted back to SUVs now that they have become more fuel efficient. The only SUV they've ever designed that wasn't butt ugly is the Toureig and they stopped selling it in the US because it was essentially an Audi Q5 for almost the same price without the brand prestige.

Scout is a real and popular vehicle from the past and they acquired that via mergers/acquisitions. It looked very similar to a Bronco from that era. The Scout naming, brand, etc. isn't something they just came up with - it's not that dissimilar to Ford bringing back the Bronco which has been incredibly popular.

I'm not saying Scout/VW will build an auto plant here - that's just speculation based on them announcing they are not interested in co-developing the brand any longer. VW is building a plant to produce Scout vehicles, that's not speculation and they are actively looking for a USA location. VW has plenty of $$ to spend and while you are right the VW brand hasn't really caught on in the US like Europe the Audi, Porsche, etc. are all incredibly popular here. It would make sense to try and locate the Scout plant next to where they build a battery plant. Canoo also has a pretty solid economic package in place that beyond the Walmart contract could be attractive to VW in addition to what they'd get for a battery plant via the Panasonic $$ that's available still.

With Navistar already in Tulsa, who knows. Navistar was officially under the VW umbrella in 2021, after the lease issues/renewal with the Tulsa plant in 2020.

Well, VW sent out a press release that they're going to build a plant in the US along with some quicky sketches of basically Rivian clones. This was a kneejerk reaction that only came about due to the new version of the $7500 EV credit. VW says a lot of things, but the proof is in the pudding and when it comes to vaporware, they're second only to Tesla. Could VW conceivably build a dedicated factory and design, engineer, and put into production plus create an entire dealer network for a Scout by 2026? Sure, if they were a well-run company, but they're not. The ID Buzz has taken 22 years to come to fruition and, frankly, they're still screwing it up and it's going to flop (and they said they were building a factory for that almost the entire time too). The entire ID line hasn't taken root and now they're getting ready to rename all of those models hoping it helps sales (I guess it can't hurt). VW has shown no interest in developing their commercial sales in the US and they aren't going to start. VW had a few vehicles that sold well in the US - the original Beetle, Bus, Ghia and, to a lesser degree, the Rabbit (or Golf depending on the generation) and they've been trying to catch the flash in the pan again ever since. VW's problem is they're always trying to copy what someone else has already done and then they do it badly. The Atlas is a cheaply done Grand Cherokee, the Passat was a cheaply done Camry, the ID4 is a meh-copy of a Tesla 3, The Scout is a half-a$$ed Rivian, it goes on and on.

Yes, I would like to see some car manufacturers setting up in Oklahoma, but it's not going to be VW and, frankly, it's not going to be Canoo either. The factory in Pryor isn't happening. The headquarters in Bentonville isn't happening. They have $40m cash left, if Canoo makes it until the end of summer, I'll be surprised.

[LandArchPoke]

Audi and Porsche actually don't either. Now Porsche is a pretty low-volume manufacturer anyways, that's the nature of their beast. The US is actually Porsche's smallest market. Within luxury marques Audi is, at best a second-thought and their sales show that. For as big of a manufacturer as VW is, their US sales are pathetic, and they have been since the 70s.


Well, VW sent out a press release that they're going to build a plant in the US along with some quicky sketches of basically Rivian clones. This was a kneejerk reaction that only came about due to the new version of the $7500 EV credit. VW says a lot of things, but the proof is in the pudding and when it comes to vaporware, they're second only to Tesla. Could VW conceivably build a dedicated factory and design, engineer, and put into production plus create an entire dealer network for a Scout by 2026? Sure, if they were a well-run company, but they're not. The ID Buzz has taken 22 years to come to fruition and, frankly, they're still screwing it up and it's going to flop (and they said they were building a factory for that almost the entire time too). The entire ID line hasn't taken root and now they're getting ready to rename all of those models hoping it helps sales (I guess it can't hurt). VW has shown no interest in developing their commercial sales in the US and they aren't going to start. VW had a few vehicles that sold well in the US - the original Beetle, Bus, Ghia and, to a lesser degree, the Rabbit (or Golf depending on the generation) and they've been trying to catch the flash in the pan again ever since. VW's problem is they're always trying to copy what someone else has already done and then they do it badly. The Atlas is a cheaply done Grand Cherokee, the Passat was a cheaply done Camry, the ID4 is a meh-copy of a Tesla 3, The Scout is a half-a$$ed Rivian, it goes on and on.

Yes, I would like to see some car manufacturers setting up in Oklahoma, but it's not going to be VW and, frankly, it's not going to be Canoo either. The factory in Pryor isn't happening. The headquarters in Bentonville isn't happening. They have $40m cash left, if Canoo makes it until the end of summer, I'll be surprised.

All fair points... I get you don't like VW and associated brands lol. What giant company is ever run well though? There's a point in size for all companies, especially public that they all become an internal sh*t show. It's just a nature of management, structure, and pressures of public companies (exec bonuses, exec turnover(golden parachutes), margins, etc.)

I do agree, it would take a lot to get Scout to be a legit brand. I would take a VW backed brand plant way before Canoo - if Scout went under VW would not let a plant in Oklahoma sit empty it would be repurposed for something especially if the battery plant was next door, if it was Canoo it would likely be empty and hope some other brand picks it up on fire sale. I can also see how there could be some interest from VW to acquire Canoo especially if it gave them a foot in the door to Walmart - I think you under estimate how big of a deal that is. You've pointed out many of the counter points, frankly all are very valid. Not saying I'm right, more than likely you're right I'm just pointing out the optimist side of it lol.

What I can say is given what Panasonic is doing to Kansas I think it would have actually been a pretty terrible deal had it came here, no way of knowing that when it was down to the final two though.

The VW deal has hinted to legislatures and others that the long term plan is 7,000-10,000 by 2026 and there would be 'further requests' for expansions, etc. It seems like some of the leaks, etc. seem to be lining up for not only a battery plant but possibly something with the Scout brand given the timing of it's announcement. Whether that brand ever amounts to anything is debatable. I personally like the sketches of it and if it looks anything like Rivian or the Bronco I think they'd sell a lot of them. I've wanted to buy the Rivian SUV but they can't deliver them with any sense of urgency so I'm likely going to buy the Volvo EX90 when it comes out in the fall. I think Tesla SUVs look like a bloated minivan. I like the Tesla cars but not the X or Y at all. I've had an Audi before and it had issues, it was well made in terms of quality but it did break. Volvo I have currently same thing though. Land Rover, BMW, Mercedes they're all a gamble on what you're going to get. Not sure Ford, GM, etc. are any better nor are Tesla's or any other brand. Car quality is on a significant decline in the last decade or two across the board.

[tulsabug]

All fair points... I get you don't like VW and associated brands lol. What giant company is ever run well though? There's a point in size for all companies, especially public that they all become an internal sh*t show. It's just a nature of management, structure, and pressures of public companies (exec bonuses, exec turnover(golden parachutes), margins, etc.)

I do agree, it would take a lot to get Scout to be a legit brand. I would take a VW backed brand plant way before Canoo - if Scout went under VW would not let a plant in Oklahoma sit empty it would be repurposed for something especially if the battery plant was next door, if it was Canoo it would likely be empty and hope some other brand picks it up on fire sale. I can also see how there could be some interest from VW to acquire Canoo especially if it gave them a foot in the door to Walmart - I think you under estimate how big of a deal that is. You've pointed out many of the counter points, frankly all are very valid. Not saying I'm right, more than likely you're right I'm just pointing out the optimist side of it lol.

What I can say is given what Panasonic is doing to Kansas I think it would have actually been a pretty terrible deal had it came here, no way of knowing that when it was down to the final two though.

The VW deal has hinted to legislatures and others that the long term plan is 7,000-10,000 by 2026 and there would be 'further requests' for expansions, etc. It seems like some of the leaks, etc. seem to be lining up for not only a battery plant but possibly something with the Scout brand given the timing of it's announcement. Whether that brand ever amounts to anything is debatable. I personally like the sketches of it and if it looks anything like Rivian or the Bronco I think they'd sell a lot of them. I've wanted to buy the Rivian SUV but they can't deliver them with any sense of urgency so I'm likely going to buy the Volvo EX90 when it comes out in the fall. I think Tesla SUVs look like a bloated minivan. I like the Tesla cars but not the X or Y at all. I've had an Audi before and it had issues, it was well made in terms of quality but it did break. Volvo I have currently same thing though. Land Rover, BMW, Mercedes they're all a gamble on what you're going to get. Not sure Ford, GM, etc. are any better nor are Tesla's or any other brand. Car quality is on a significant decline in the last decade or two across the board.

Oh, I like VW - almost all my cars are VWs and I deal with the company on a daily basis, but it's not well run. It doesn't have a clear vision and is completely reactionary to the market. They're the Burger King of the car market - if McDonalds comes out with something, BK will copy it to middling results. It also doesn't understand the US market. It never wanted to be in the US market - independent importers forced it on them. VW of America wasn't even born until 6 years after Beetles were being sold here by independent dealers importing them. They've misunderstood the US market since day one and this whole Scout nonsense is just the latest step in that.

I'd love to see the Scout happen BUT if it does, it won't happen soon, it won't be done well, and it'll die a quick death because that's how VW rolls. Yes, a VW plant would be better than a Canoo plant - I totally agree. Honestly, a Canoe plant would be better than a Canoo plant.

And, sorry, modern VWs are turds - I sell enough parts for them to know this well. The quality has literally not been there since the mid-70s. Audis look nice, have better designs, better interiors and so on than VW, but they're completely VW under the skin so it's no surprise that everything breaks. VW makes some decent engines and then bolt crappy cars to them. The general rule of thumb will all luxury cars, and anything European, is to sell it before the warranty is up. This holds true for Mercedes, BMW, Volvo, and so on. The biggest problem with car quality is all new doodads and gizmos they're adding. Gimmicky stuff always breaks and they're really going overboard with it now.

[Red Arrow]

This holds true for Mercedes, BMW, Volvo, and so on. The biggest problem with car quality is all new doodads and gizmos they're adding. Gimmicky stuff always breaks and they're really going overboard with it now.

It seems the selling points for any new car is the technology.  The fact that it's in a vehicle is secondary.   

[LandArchPoke]

Oh, I like VW - almost all my cars are VWs and I deal with the company on a daily basis, but it's not well run. It doesn't have a clear vision and is completely reactionary to the market. They're the Burger King of the car market - if McDonalds comes out with something, BK will copy it to middling results. It also doesn't understand the US market. It never wanted to be in the US market - independent importers forced it on them. VW of America wasn't even born until 6 years after Beetles were being sold here by independent dealers importing them. They've misunderstood the US market since day one and this whole Scout nonsense is just the latest step in that.

I'd love to see the Scout happen BUT if it does, it won't happen soon, it won't be done well, and it'll die a quick death because that's how VW rolls. Yes, a VW plant would be better than a Canoo plant - I totally agree. Honestly, a Canoe plant would be better than a Canoo plant.

And, sorry, modern VWs are turds - I sell enough parts for them to know this well. The quality has literally not been there since the mid-70s. Audis look nice, have better designs, better interiors and so on than VW, but they're completely VW under the skin so it's no surprise that everything breaks. VW makes some decent engines and then bolt crappy cars to them. The general rule of thumb will all luxury cars, and anything European, is to sell it before the warranty is up. This holds true for Mercedes, BMW, Volvo, and so on. The biggest problem with car quality is all new doodads and gizmos they're adding. Gimmicky stuff always breaks and they're really going overboard with it now.

Also, when I say "quality" I'm speaking purely on aesthetics and comfort, not necessarily about anything else. The Audi I had was very solid in that category but the fuel pump went out twice on it and those are thousands each time, second time it happened I traded it in for a Volvo. Volvo's interiors are top notch and by far the most comfortable car I've driven. The tech side is great too, their self driving technology is very underrated and the new EX90s are going to have some serious upgrades in that regard. I've had several minor problem with my Volvo though, biggest was the second battery that works while you're stopped, etc. went bad within 20k miles and when it went bad it turned off every feature on the car pretty much (not a single parking sensor worked, collision avoidance, etc.) which frankly didn't make any sense why an auxiliary battery would case that. BUT I also had a Jeep Cherokee for years. The transmission went out three times before the warranty was up and also had a screw loose somewhere that anytime I got on the highway you could hear it rattle. It wasn't a cheap Jeep either, it was the top line model. Out of all the cars I've had, the US brands have been by far the worst. I agree the more dumb gadgets and tech they throw into the cars the worse it seems to get.

I would say in terms of looking at VW, they will never be on the scale of what they are in Europe here - I'd bet VW does better in North America than any US brand does in Europe. I personally wouldn't be afraid to buy another Audi but it is always a gamble on how many problems it'll have.. my mom still has an Audi she bought 6 years ago and has never had a single thing wrong with it so it is possible to get a decent one sometimes lol.

Will be interesting to see what comes out either Friday or weekend. It sounds like there is a likely announcement being made from what was reported in the news unless it gets pushed back.

Also something about VW is they've said the average pay will be $75,000 a year versus Panasonic which was closer to $50,000 a year or less I believe. So this could actually be a pretty good upgrade after losing the Panasonic deal. Kansas may wish they could swap projects lol.